I received the following today from the Chairman of SAKKS, Kevin Till, which is self explanatory. Please note that everyone is welcome to attend.


Dear All,





With KHV that threatens Koi in South Africa and worldwide for that matter, I request that we meet as one national body of experienced minds to find a way of coping with this dreaded virus. my initial discussions has been with SAKTA chairman Collin Nel whom agrees fully.





I feel we need to stand together and establish a policies and procedures / roles and responsibilities national committee that will deal with all related health issues around Koi but focus on how we will effectively react if we had a disaster on our hands.





This will show the public and our government that we are serious and professional about Koi in South Africa, I also feel this example could be duplicated globally for the benefit of all but first we need to sit around the table and master mind an intelligent plan that works for all.





If you arrive with politics and personality clashes in mind I then urge you not to attend as we need professionals to focus on the task at hand.





This discussion is not a closed or exclusive discussion to a selected few, we invite all and any person to attend if they feel they can make a valuable contribution and for those not able to attend due to logistics are welcome to give their input in writing.





Please note that this affects us all whether you are a dealer or hobbyist so let us stand together and find a "solution / control" to KHV. Could you imagine if KHV runs wild what panic will be caused if we are not ready and have not properly educated the public and our members/dealers.





LG has agreed to give us the boardroom at LGX Showroom at Monte Casino and perhaps it may be better to meet on a Saturday 17H00 as the LG showroom only closes at 21H00, shall we meet on 30th May,


I am trying to find a time that does not affect working or trading hours.





Let me know if this works for you please. Confirmation of attendance please notify by email to info@koisa.co.za





Assuring you of my best interests at heart





Regards


Kevin Till

I heard something about a KHV outbreak in Gauteng today. Very strange time of year to get KHV are they sure its KHV?

Who is the source of this outbreak?

Does anyone else have more info?

A very positive gesture from SAKKS to meet the Industry and hobbyist to find solutions and implement policy and procedures that can benefit the Dealers and Hobbyist alike, without crippling the Industry.
A policy for Koi Shows under the SAKKS banner should also be discussed.

Hi Wayne,

I am not on the SAKKS committee but do know a little of whats going on - KHV was found in one koi keepers collection. Confirmed by tests. SAKKS is trying to establish the origins - not to point a finger but simply to discover the origins.

Hi Bobby,
Yes I agree with you on your comments about SAKKS and the industry. Its a very positive step. Lets see what develops in the near future as there are some very good ideas floating around.

SAKKS does have a policy for shows it just needs to be tightened up.

Some random thoughts and imaginary situations:

A mythological town called Bliksem Blikkies Fontein has an imaginary koi show. 5 dealers want in and take dealers areas at the show. The rules and regulations are set. One of the show rules is that dealers selling koi during the show must quarantine their stock before the show.

After the show the Bliksem Blikkies Fontein Koi Chapter (the BBFKC for short) discovers that one dealer has brought koi into the country two days before the show and sold them at the show.

Question #1: What would you do about this?

Now that you have tared and feathered the dealer who did not quarantine his imports for the show, paraded him through the streets of Bliksem Blikkies Fontein - yes, past the bottle store AND the general dealer AND the garage, a koi keeper finds he has KHV in his pond. The problem is that after tests are done it is discovered that dealer #2 who did quarantine his imports for 6 weeks prior to the show, has the KHV on his imports.

Question # 2: Now what?

Some observations:

The spread of viruses - especially in the fish industry - is a major concern. It is also nearly impossible to contain.

It is possible to have the virus on a single fish in a selling tank with out it being present on the other fish.

There is a suspicion in America that the KHV is mutating. For one it is becoming less deadly or are the fish becoming more resistant?

When KHV first broke out in th elate 90's it had a very high mortality rate - 90 - 100% of your fish died quickly. We see recently that KHV can break out in a pond but there are 30 - 40% mortality rates.

Further KHV can break out in one pond but many other koi keepers who buy fish from the same sales pond do not experience KHV.

In other words - there is a lot we have to learn. There has always been the possibility of cross infection when mixing koi into your pond. Have a look at koi disease reference books from 40 or 50 years ago. They all draw on material from earlier in the industry and they all warn of cross infection when mixing fish from different sources.

Cross infection has been around since the birth of the fish industry. Its only recently that science has been able to identify what is infecting our koi.

One last point in this miscellaneous ramble - do not forget the bacterial cross infections - not every infection is viral or KHV. There are some very nasty bacteria floating about out there.

Get you koi into tip top health and you water quality at its best so that their natural immune systems can fight these infections that are occurring all the time.

Regards,
Chris

Chis neaves wrote:

SAKKS does have a policy for shows it just needs to be tightened up.

The Western Cape have our Show next weekend 22 May. I will appreciate if someone could post the current rules so the out of town members and dealers can then also give positive feedback and suggestions to Kevin for the meeting 30 May in Jnb

Quote :

not to point a finger but simply to discover the origins.

Thanks Chris, I bought a imported koi from a Gauteng dealer on March 12. The koi went straight in quarintine and is still healthy. Please keep me posted on this matter.

In my own opinion SAKKS should do the policing of KHV themselfs and not leave it upto a 3rd parties. Leave the running of koi dealer bussinesses upto the koi dealers but enforce show conditions and rules onto the dealers.

Bobby wrote:

I will appreciate if someone could post the current rules so the out of town members and dealers can then also give positive feedback and suggestions to Kevin for the meeting 30 May in Jnb

As requested, herewith the Western Cape rules:

Western Cape Show Dealer and Sponsor Prospectus

In view of the threat posed by Koi Herpes Virus (KHV), SAKKS Western Cape has
imposed the following requirements, terms and conditions and responsibilities
on each of the dealers selling koi at the show. All dealers are required to
comply strictly with these requirements and to co-operate fully with the SAKKS
members and staff running the show:
1. When arriving at the show site please contact Johan Jacobs, the show
chairman. He will show you your stand and once your ponds have
been erected arrange for them to be filled with water. Please note
that due to strict controls we have imposed no water, whether from
bags used to transport the koi or from ponds may be discharged other
than into the drainage pipes located at the rear of the stands. Should
you breach this restriction you agree that SAKKS may unilaterally
take whatever action it deems appropriate, including but not limited
to, draining water from ponds, requiring a dealer to do so
immediately, imposing a penalty on the dealer of up to R10,000 or
requiring the dealer to forthwith remove his koi and vats from the
show site. In addition the dealer will be held liable for any damages
caused as a result of such breach by the dealer.
2. When releasing koi into your vats please do not under any
circumstances allow water from bags to be discharged onto the
ground. All excess water is to be discharged into the discharge area
which allows the site to be kept dry.
3. When changing water, the old water is to be discharged likewise. No
water is to be allowed to discharge onto the ground in or around your
stand area.
4. Please co-operate with the SAKKS appointed staff who are
responsible for provision of water at all times. Please plan ahead for
your water changes where ever possible and schedule these with the
appropriate persons.
5. All used plastic bags and wet items are to be placed into a dry plastic
bag or other container and disposed of by yourselves. Please do not
let these lie around on the ground.
6. No water is allowed to be discharged onto the ground at the end of
the show. Please be responsible and discharge water into the
discharge area.
7. Please provide your own submersible pump and piping for discharging
water. Under no circumstances will piping be supplied by SAKKS for
this purpose as to avoid cross contamination.
[size=21]Notice Regarding the Sale of Koi
[/size][size=16]Page 12 Western Cape Show Dealer and Sponsor Prospectus
[/size]8. All dealers are responsible for the health of their own koi, water
management and water changes must be scheduled with the
appropriate SAKKS person managing water
Stand Readiness
All stands will be available for set up on Thursday 21 May 2009 and must be
vacated entirely by Sunday evening 24 May 2009
Dealer Stand Equipment
Each dealer stand will be provided with the following equipment:
• 1 x ELECTRICITY CONNECTION POINT- Please have your own extension
cords, multiple adapters etc to meet your own needs
• An AIRLINE into which Dealers can tap for air.
• If you have your own air-blowers to use on your stand please bring them
as back-up.
• A Water delivery pipe with valve and flexible hosing.
Each dealer should supply
• Your own submersible pump and flexible hosing to discharge water from
your vats
• Your own electrical cords, adaptors and other requirements to connect
to the electrical plug in your stand
• Your own airblower if available.
• Any other items you need other than as listed as being supplied with
each stand.
Further Terms and Conditions
SAKKS reserves the unfettered right in the event of any koi on site appearing to
be sick, or potentially having been exposed to KHV, to require the owner of
that koi or the dealer to cease selling koi from that pond or any others of that
dealer.
All koi offered for sale by a dealer must have been quarantined at his facilities for at least 21 days prior to the show.

The 2009 Gauteng rules were more or less the same except that they required 4 weeks quarantine.

Some further info on the so-called KHV out break here in Gauteng.

It was found in one koi keepers pond. Two tests were done on fish in this pond and one was positive and one was negative.

The dealer who seemed to be taking the brunt of the finger pointing had SAKKS and SAKTA representatives at his premesis.

They went over board and took more than 8 random samples for testing plus two tests the day before on his own accord. All tests came back negative.

Many dealers are going to a lot of trouble regarding the health of their stock.

And that's really great news.

The buyer must always be careful and realize there is ALWAYS a risk when mixing koi together.

Chris

I believe that if it is alledged that a dealer is a possible source of a KHV infected fish, there is an obligation on them to prove without doubt that they do not have KHV infected fish. Currently there is not any legislation in place to force them to do anything, but should they not cooperate or fail to prove that they are not the source, they should be named and all hobbyists should be warned.

I do not think that eight random tests is "going overboard" or is enough. The requirements are normally three tests for every pond or 50 fish, and even then there is still a margin of error. For KHV to show it colors, the temperature must be at least 23 degrees Celsius. MDS recommends that fish be placed in quarantine for 10-14 days before the tests, during which period the water must be raised to at least 23 degrees. KHV must first be trigggered. The negative tests received by the dealer tells me nothing unless the temperature was raised and 10-14 days expired before testing. That clearly did not happen.

If this dealer has in fact got HKV in his pond/s, an outbreak may only show after winter. By then, they might have sold hundreds of fish, being possible time bombs in various ponds waiting for springtime to explode, which can have a detrimental effect on the hobby at large.

I believe that if any finger is being pointed towards any dealer after positive results, SAKKS should take control and test the dealer's fish properly in accordance with the guidelines laid down by MDS and other specialists in the field. As I already said, if the dealer refuse, SAKKS can go public, which will for all practical purposes close the dealer down.

Hi,

Using the above protocol may result in all dealers carrying KHV. The virus can be latent, there can be carriers etc. Perhaps if you look hard enough you will find it every where.

Question: If there is a suspected KHV source and 8 - 10 random tests are done and they all come back negative - what conclusions can be made? Do you carry on testing hundreds of fish until one is found with KHV? Do you then say to the dealer all your koi have KHV (after 100 negative tests and one positive one) destroy all your stocks?

Question: If a koi keeper experiences deaths in a pond and swabs are taken and one of two tests come back positive and the other negative - does he have KHV in his pond? Or is there KHV one one fish?

Question: Based on the two tests, one of which was positive, should the said koi keeper destroy his entire collection. Keeping in mind only 40% of his collection died.

Question: Do you think it is a strange time of year for KHV to surface? Keeping in mind the temperatures suggested to "activate" the virus.

Question: If a dealer has a finger pointed at him or her and 8 negative tests come back is there a need to test further?

Question: The KHV was found in one fish in a koi keepers pond with out raising the temperature. Pond temp at about 19C. Does this tell us anything?

Question: If there is a suspected case of KHV quick action needs to be taken and the source needs to be found quickly. Can you afford to wait 14 days?

Question: If a dealer has his stock sales stopped (don't know how?) during the 14 days before tests and then a further week for the test results to come back and all tests are negative - then what? Can the dealer sue the individual who made the original allegation for loss of earnings? Can the dealers sue the society or dealers organization for loss of earnings and defamation of character? They could even say my reputation has been damaged by false allegations now I am going to sue for future loss of earnings.

Question: Based on a recent case. If a koi keeper has a stable collection and it is two years since he bought any koi from any source and there is an out break of KHV in his pond - what happens in this case?

Just asking to get a better grasp of other people ideas -

Regards,
Chris

Hi Paul

I contacted SAKKS National a couple of days ago and asked for the show rules and benching procedures and that type of thing not for this post but for the running of the coming western cape show.

There are no SAKKS fixed rules or protocols to follow - They suggest each chapter to create their own and bourough from other chapter...So the rules that you posted from western cape are exactly that, rules from the western cape decided on by the western cape commitee. If push cape to shove i have no idea if the SAKKS body would help enforce any of them.

I suggest that SAKKS lay down a protocol on how to deal with dealers and hobbists that where exposed to KHV before a show.

The following where questions asked at a show meeting a couple of weeks ago here in the cape.
For example if Pietie (A dealer or hobbyist) had KHV last year or the current...


1. Do we now require a KHV certificate? Who is going to perform the test?

2. How do we know that the test fish are the fish at the show?

3. Do we allow him to show his KHV exposed fish in English style and risk the possibility of it being transpitted to other participants?

4. Do we tell him he can't show or sell?
a) For how long?
b) Whats the conditions that he must pass?

5. What if he claims that he culled all the previous KHV fish? How do we know that the correct procedure was followed?

6. What if the heated up method was followed to "save" the show fish?

7. Is it our right as SAKKS to tell Dealers how to run their bussinesses?


In my opinion how SAKKS deals with this comes down to it they will accept responsibility for it or not? You cant have a indemnity form to indemnify SAKKS and then not take some manner of precautions.

This post is late due to Santech problems:

Wayne,

Quote :

heard something about a KHV outbreak in Gauteng today. Very strange time of year to get KHV are they sure its KHV?

Who is the source of this outbreak?

Does anyone else have more info?

How the hell can you ask for more information regarding this KHV outbreak, when you were the one, phoning me on Friday with the story including names of the parties involved?
You even stated that you received a list of members by email from Maria Anna Botha so that you could contact Rocky Michael and follow up the rumor!

What is the reason for your action?

This is what I discovered

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=711

Hi, re Chris' post

Quote :

Using the above protocol may result in all dealers carrying KHV. The virus can be latent, there can be carriers etc. Perhaps if you look hard enough you will find it every where.

It can be latent, there can be carriers, but it is not that common. I doubt it if you will find it "almost anywhere". If there are carriers, it will show itself sooner or later, and if so, strict measures should be taken.

Quote :

Question: If there is a suspected KHV source and 8 - 10 random tests are done and they all come back negative - what conclusions can be made? Do you carry on testing hundreds of fish until one is found with KHV? Do you then say to the dealer all your koi have KHV (after 100 negative tests and one positive one) destroy all your stocks?

If one positive result has been found, all koi that were exposed to that one postive fish should be destroyed. No two ways about it.

The number of tests should be in accordance with the number of fish and number of ponds involved, and the severity of the allegations. According to MDS, 3 tests of each batch is a "representative sample".

Quote :

Question: If a koi keeper experiences deaths in a pond and swabs are taken and one of two tests come back positive and the other negative - does he have KHV in his pond? Or is there KHV one one fish?

If only one positive result is found in a pond, yes, there can be said that the "pond" has KHV.

Quote :

Question: Based on the two tests, one of which was positive, should the said koi keeper destroy his entire collection. Keeping in mind only 40% of his collection died.

Once again, from the surviving 60%, there will be carriers. All shoud be killed.

Quote :

Question: Do you think it is a strange time of year for KHV to surface? Keeping in mind the temperatures suggested to "activate" the virus.

KHV can also be activated by stress, even if the water is fairly cold, but it is still a very strange time to surface. Normally it only triggers above 23. Maybe it was triggered in a heated QT facility. If dealers import fish this time of the year, it is extremely important to quarantine the new arrivals in heated water to force out any KHV if present. Last year, we imported fish this time of the year, and our costs to increase the temperature during the QT period, cost us a fortune. Maybe the dealer in this case quarantined new arrivals with heated water, and sold the fish to the hobbyist after it triggered the KHV but before the KHV surfaced?

Quote :

Question: If a dealer has a finger pointed at him or her and 8 negative tests come back is there a need to test further?

Not if it a representative sample was tested and it was tested in accordance with the guidelines, for instance after 14 days in heated water.

Quote :

Question: If there is a suspected case of KHV quick action needs to be taken and the source needs to be found quickly. Can you afford to wait 14 days?

Without waiting 14 days, the results mean nothing to me and is worthless.

Quote :

Question: If a dealer has his stock sales stopped (don't know how?) during the 14 days before tests and then a further week for the test results to come back and all tests are negative - then what? Can the dealer sue the individual who made the original allegation for loss of earnings? Can the dealers sue the society or dealers organization for loss of earnings and defamation of character? They could even say my reputation has been damaged by false allegations now I am going to sue for future loss of earnings.

The dealers name should not be used until the 14 days expired, so future loss of earnings due to defamation is not really applicable.

Should it be established that KHV surfaced directly after a purchase from a dealer, any responsible dealer should suspend sales for the 14 day period anyway, purely because there is a possibility that he is the source. As long as no lies were told, no dealer can sue for loss of earnings.

Quote :

Question: Based on a recent case. If a koi keeper has a stable collection and it is two years since he bought any koi from any source and there is an out break of KHV in his pond - what happens in this case?

I think it is highly unlikely that KHV will surface after two years without any new additions. However, they might be carriers, and as soon as you add new fish, it might kill new additions. I suppose more professional studies are required in this regard, but we have to act with the limited information at our disposal.

Pieter J de Villiers wrote:

This post is late due to Santech problems:

Wayne,

Quote :

heard something about a KHV outbreak in Gauteng today. Very strange time of year to get KHV are they sure its KHV?

Who is the source of this outbreak?

Does anyone else have more info?

How the hell can you ask for more information regarding this KHV outbreak, when you were the one, phoning me on Friday with the story including names of the parties involved?
You even stated that you received a list of members by email from Maria Anna Botha so that you could contact Rocky Michael and follow up the rumor!

What is the reason for your action?

This is what I discovered

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=711

Pieter, i dont understand you attitude.

Yes i spoke to you in private about a fish of mine bought from a Gauteng dealer. I also spoke to 2 other key people after i spoke to you. Their responce was "So far no dealer seems to be responsible as all test results returned negative from all sources." They never mentioned the dealers name although i was pushing for it.

The information i phoned you with was not received from a sakks member or sakks representative - it was a private individual, friend of mine in Gauteng that also have kois - I phoned you with names of delears i was given and after you contacted your sources you confrimed the story.

I do not expect to get the correct version of the story from only one person - thats why a person askes diffirent sources.

Pieter, Pieter, Pieter....
Have i not clearly explained to you over the phone that Maria Anna Bothas has nothing todo with this? She is NOT involved! I asked her for a list of paid up western cape members for the cape show and accidently received the whole list. I mentioned this too you cause i had now access to the tel number of Rocy Micheals by accident. I was not going to follow a rumour up for her - I never mentioned this.

I told you this over the phone after you already misunderstood me once.

Crazy...but thank you in any case for this friendly repley, A phone call before your post would have been much appreciated - Now you involved several parties unneccesarily.

Wayne,

Just a friendly warning, keep calling me a liar, and I will nail to the wall!

Pieter, im not sure how this misunderstanding happend but im sticking to what i wrote.

Feel free to phone me.

Wayne

Hi Paul,

Many thanks for the reply.

I do beg to diasgree with you on destroying all remaining koi - especially if you are a hobbyist and do not intend to sell on and especially if you have one positive test and one negative test in a collection. I also wonder if the KHV tests are 100% accurate and I wonder what the chances of contamination of samples are.

I will email the guys in the USA who have been doing some research into this virus. I know some guys are beginning to suspect that the virus is dormant in a host e.g. inside microorganisms in the slugde for example. Much the same as the swine flu going around at the moment. This virus also has intermediaries out side of the human body.

But lets see what they have come across in the States and take it to the debating table on the 30th.

If the meeting at the end of the month takes place and there is anything you would like to add please email Maria-Anna Botha.

I also believe we should not lose sight of the fact that there are lots of other things that can affect our koi collections, not only KHV.

It would be great to get common ground amongst enthusiasts and dealers. Lets see how this develops.

Regards,
Chris

Hi Paul,

Just an after thought ..... so many thoughts .... my mind has not stopped after the great dog food debate of 2009 .......

If the koi keeper purchases a koi from a dealer and his koi get KHV how come other koi keepers who buy from the same dealer and the same tank /system do not get KHV?

If KHV were that virulent and if KHV did infect all koi in close contact or the same system we would see more collections being wiped out as we did when this virus was first identified in 1996 (I think it was).

The more questions I ask and the more circumstances I come across the more I am awed at nature (and humans).

Kind regards,
Chris

Hi ..... another thought .....

If there is anyone on this forum who has a question or has positive suggestions regarding the proposed Emergency Response National committee then please email me directly with your ideas. Alternatively send then to the SAKKS secretary.

I will certainly bring them up for discussion.

Chris

I feel i need to clarify this again. Maria Anna Botha's email has nothing todo with the KHV issue that i was following up in private.

The Facts:

1. Bobby and myself requested a updated membership list from Maria Anna Botha for a koi show meeting held on Thursday evening the 14th at 7pm. We received her email at 16:21 on Thurday before our meeting.

2. This is an extract from our show meeting where bobby used maria annas email.

Quote :

3. The most important aspect and challenge to us all would be to increase SAKKS membership in the Western Cape.
4. I am of the opinion that as many as possible members should gather for a social one a month to discuss policy and procedures and also spend time to share Koi experiences with one another. I am sure we all can learn from Ernst and Johan and we can also at the same time learn from someone’s experience on how not to do something and save ourselves lots of agony.
5. Should members be prepared to drive to Malmesbury, I am willing to open my home and to sponsor snacks for such a gathering around my settlement chamber.

3. Friday morning at 09:52 i was phoned by concerned friend regarding the KHV issue in Gauteng. This was the first word i heard regarding the matter. At 11:20 i decided to phone pieter to try and get confirmation as he is usualy upto date with all things koi.

The sole reason for Maria Anna sending us the name list was for the sole reason to try and increase the membership in the western cape. She is unable to filter he database and so we received the complete SAKKS membership list by accident.

Between Bobby, Maria-Anna and myself no KHV discussion took place. Any suggestion that anything else was the reason for sending the name list is not factual.

Hi Marius,

Point noted.

This is a big problem in the koi industry. It results in Mr & Mrs average koi keeper often receiving incorrect or bad information with regards sick koi.

How to over come this is the question. Also how to assist koi keepers through the learning curve we all go through. Even after 30 years in the game you are still on a learning curve.

Just a thought - my personal opinion - I believe too much emphasis is placed on sick koi. We sometimes look for problems that are not there. Yes sometimes koi do become ill. And yes sometimes problems are introduced through new additions.

If the environment is good then in most cases the koi should be alive and healthy for a long time.

Regards,
Chris

27 May 2009



Dear All,

A meeting has called as we felt we needed to discuss the KHV and other health related issues for the long term, in other words setting up an "Emergency Response committee" that is experienced to assist where necessary, each having roles and responsibilities and making it clear to the Koi community what processes to follow and who to call when the need arises.

We simply are calling it an "Emergency Response Committee" because should any Koi member have a problem they would need immediate assistance.

This initial idea has been discussed among various members and dealers and it was felt that it would be a good idea to keep our hobby healthy and strong for the future and for all to prosper.

We have been gathering information internationally to increase our understanding of health issues and once openly discussed through meetings / e-mails and or phone calls we will reach a consensus on how the "Emergency Response Committee" can serve the Koi community.

We do not want to rush this process and we still await some information and for this reason we have decided to postpone the meeting which means we will not have our intended meeting for the 30th May at LGX Monte Casino.

I also think with the Rugby finals being played at the same it may be a relief to most.

We will keep you well informed of the new intended date and venue.

Assuring you of our best support at all times

Regards

Kevin Till

SAKKS - National Chairman