The relevance - was firstly - you mentioned Walthams....and even though they saythey have an aquaculture facility - I have been unsuccessful in finding any koi food manufactured by them - or even Reserch papers that they have done on Koi. Perhaps you can give us the brand names of the Koi food that they manufacture, or refer us to some research that they have done.

Secondly, yes, there is more cats and dogs in households in the world than ornamental (or koi).... you proved my point.... there is more research done on the effects of dietary ingredients etc for Cats and Dogs than has ever been done for Koi. Yet regardless of the fact that these studies have been done and scientific reserach now tells us that Cats are obligate carnivores and that they should not be eating starch and fiber as it causes Struvite Crystal formation:

Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats. - Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats.

Yet, did the pet Food companies stop there - no they now needed to find a way to continue using ingredients which ultimately cause Kidney Failure.... so they then try and find a way of adding a chemical to stop this from happening.... again instead of simply saying OK - no more carbs and fiber for cats.....

Effect of supplementation of dry cat food with D,L-methionine and ammonium chloride on struvite activity product and sediment in urine. - Feeding dry foods supplemented with urine acidifier (D,L-methionine (Met) or ammonium chloride) decreased urinary pH and struvite activity product in clinically normal cats. As a result, the number of struvite crystals in urine was greatly reduced. Supplementation with 3% Met but not 1% Met caused decrease in the urinary concentration of sediment, which resulted from a reduction in the HCl-soluble fraction. The concentration of HCl-insoluble sediment was not affected by supplementation with the urine acidifier.

Our of interest Carbs also cause Inflammatory Bowel Disease
By definition, carbohydrate tolerance is the ability to consume dietary carbohydrates without adverse effect or injury. Carbohydrate malassimilation and intolerance are suspected to be common complications of gastrointestinal disease (1) and can result in osmotic diarrhea, bacterial overgrowth, and ill thrift in cats (2).

The pathophysiology of carbohydrate malabsorption in feline gastrointestinal disease is poorly understood. Carbohydrate malabsorption may occur in inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)4 because of the adverse effects of inflammation on digestive enzymes (3) or due to inflammatory infiltrates acting as a nutrient diffusion barrier (4).

The widespread use of commercial diets, the large amount of carbohydrates they contain [many commercial dry cat foods contain at least 40% carbohydrate (5)], and the frequent changes in the formulation of these diets suggest that handling of dietary carbohydrates by cats with gastrointestinal inflammation warrants study. Furthermore, the peculiarities of the digestion, absorption, and metabolism of carbohydrates by cats (6– may make cats with gastrointestinal disease more vulnerable than other species to carbohydrate maldigestion and malabsorption.

I will not dwell on this - the point is that these so called Leading pet Food Manufacturers - have not changed their formulations for cat foods - and this is the number one leading cause of renal failure that we see in cats today.........

Nutritional deficiencies take time to show themselves, and by then the damage is often done......

So the relevance and point is:

Do Nutritionists really have the pets interests at heart? When they formulate a feed do they look solely at what the numbers say and the bottom line.... or do they look at all the research that is at their hands...which they are ignoring?

How did the oldest koi in the world - over 200 years old - live to that age? Was it from eating maize? Somehow I seriously doubt it!

When I look at any food (I actually do not have any cats - just used them as an example) I have dogs and koi ....I look to see what the ingredients are....... and if it is something completely different to what the animal/fish would eat in the wild - I would stay away from it............ so for me - I will always avoid foods which contain Maize / Corn etc - and I will alwyas go for foods which say Fish Meal / Shrimp Meal etc. Would I trust a company like Kyorin - YES! Would I trust a company who manufactures dog and cat food - NO!

and why
because all the research in the world has shown and proven that most (a huge majority) of pet food companies simply can not be trusted with the health of our dogs and cats - this is an Industry that makes over US$16 Billion a year - so for Koi and their nutrition - I would be very sceptical.......

Our of interest - I am not irked by "offal and yucky parts etc being used in commerical foods" - I am irked by the way in which it gets there..... I am willing to bet that not many people really understand that process of how these ingredients become made "unfit for human consumption" prior to going to a rendering plant - they are coated first with highly toxic substances like Coal Tar and Creosote....and you wonder why so many of our animals have cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, Pancreatitis, Hyperthyroidism etc.....

So in short - if after all the research and proof pet food companies continue to spit out inferior products which they KNOW are causing disease..... what chance do you have with your koi?

Sadly, only time will tell! I am sure that some of the people on this forum have travelled to Japan.... what do the Japanese feed?

This has turned out to be quiet an interesting discussion.......

Hi -

I think we must look to Wayne and the Aqua Master food shortage for this mammoth debate on the pet food industry - come now Dennis .......

In the middle of this debate - my first grand child has been born ..... a beautiful girl.

So lets see how it goes.

Yes, as koicare says - very interesting.

Kind regards,
Chris

Congatulations Chris, so your'e a grand dad now.

I am not sure if Dennis will get involved as that was not my question to him.

I was not the one that wanted to compare Appels and Appels.

Well, i got my Aqua Master. After speaking to dennis. As i said before i mix my food with a bit of this and a bit of that. As i said to you in an email "I am not a scientist so i know nothing regarding bio chemistry and that stuff. "

I make my decision on what i use; on how the koi food reacts to my pond enviroment.

Some of the local foods contain alot of broken pellets that sink and break up and end up in the bottom drain before they can be eaten while others smell so terrible that you will swear that i havn't clean my filters for a year, others pellets are bright red & green and worry me - that is what how i currently make my decision.

I cannot afford the high priced foods like Hikaris, Tetras and EA Show foods but also want the best - so where must i and others like myself go? I truly believe that if the Hikari supplier cut his own markup he will sell more and make more profit. You do not have to be the most expensive to be viewed as the best and you have a choice to follow the recommmende selling price or not. But until that happens we will have to try and find some middle way. What makes this harder is that manufactuers are allowed to lie on their food packaging. Here is the link regarding the koi food hat prevents KHV.

So how can you trust the print on the packaging from any koi food manufacturer?

This weekend i was comparing the labels of the diffirent types of koi food from the same local made brand. Growth, Maintenance and Winter feed. The nutrition table for the diffirent products where identical except for the protein - how is this possible - surely decreasing protein in the winter feed should increase something else like chris mentioned....so can you really trust the label?

I have 3 spaniels and i try to also give them the best. If anything happens to them because the manufacturer tried to save some money on their food make up i will propably become a criminal. My pets are my children and i want food companies to view them as such.

I am sure we all want the best for our pets but unfortunatly some of us are restricted by the bottom line.

My dogs eat the Pedigree dog food and thats already very expensive for me...I know there are better foods but in the end it will mean that i will have to stop eating so that i can feed my pets. So for now we try our best to find something in between.

From this debate i think koicare and chris bought out a lot of good points and chris from shogun on the other end will know if it is possible todo and afford what she is talking about or not.

In the end we the consumers look at the price; the nice bright glossy packaging and then maybe - maybe the nutrution table. So who is really to blame?

Hi Wayne,

Yes – finally a grandfather. I am sure she has her grandfathers good-looks genes.

My intention was to pull yours and Dennis’s legs – basically saying that the original posting has evolved from a post about the Aqua Master shortage to a debate on the world pet food industry. It’s amazing how these things develop.

Good to see you got your food. Yes, I agree with you – if you are not sure then mix your foods. However keep in mind that mixing pellets is not the same as a varied diet. Worms, insects, shrimps etc are great for the koi. Also red peppers – if you can get your fish to take them. Oranges, carrots etc Nothing wrong with this.

The decision you make on which koi food to use should not be dictated by the reaction of the koi food to the pond environment – it should be dictated by the long term reaction of the koi to the food.

There are some very good foods on the market. If you want that extra mile then supplement with fresh foods. Don’t overdo it.

In many cases you cannot trust the print on the packaging.

“This weekend i was comparing the labels of the different types of koi food from the same local made brand. Growth, Maintenance and Winter feed. The nutrition table for the diffirent products where identical except for the protein - how is this possible - surely decreasing protein in the winter feed should increase something else like chris mentioned....so can you really trust the label?”

Exactly

Are your spaniels healthy? Obviously, yes, otherwise you would be corresponding from jail – so why do you want a ”better” food. There is nothing wrong with the brand of dog food you are using even if it is made by the dreaded Masterfoods. This is one of the better dog foods. When we were developing the cat litter I saw their new facility in Pretoria, I also saw their quality control and formulations – a superior dog food for sure.

Now an interesting thing about dog foods – imagine you are a pet food manufacturer. An honest pet food manufacturer. You have qualified nutritionists developing your formulations in conjunction with scientific data. The raw materials you use come from the manufacturers with certificates – certificates of nutritional values and origins. Your product is going along nicely and you develop your market to say 100,000 tons per year in say South Africa. Or several million tons of production per year in say the USA or Europe.

Suddenly groups of dogs start dying – all from similar symptoms. What do you do? Do you carry on merrily with the way you are making the food or do you investigate? You immediately investigate, your business is at stake here. Your hundreds of millions of dollars investment is at stake.

Initially you simply cannot find the reason for the dog deaths. The lab tests for possible toxins come back negative. The deaths continue. Eventually you stumble upon the cause – your supplier of corn gluten has been spiking the raw material (for years) with melamine. Melamine is a plastic power used to make kitchen tops. It is used to trick the protein test done on food protein sources. It gives a false test result – a higher protein content than is actually there. That’s OK – not everyone is honorable in what they do. But the levels added into the raw material are causing the kidneys to collapse in animals and deaths are resulting.

This is undiscovered for years. Then suddenly babies milk is also spiked with melamine. Again simply to make more money by falsifying the test results. And now human babies start dying and many, many more become permanently ill.
It’s a nightmare faced by honest pet food manufacturers and honest manufacturers of baby products.

When the source of the illnesses was discovered test were developed and now pet food and human food manufacturers use the standardized test on raw materials before use in their factories.

If you search around you will find that melamine has been used in raw materials for the fish food industry for a lot longer than in pet foods or human milk supplements. And that is worrying.

This is why I posted some time ago asking if anyone had experienced a lot of dropsy in their koi collections.

Yes koicare has opened up the debate with some excellent points – but it’s not over yet. My reply to the last posting is still in the mixer and is on the way shortly.
If we can get what is “ideal” we can look at it and see if it’s practical and even what it would cost.

Now about that nice bright glossy packaging .....

Kind regards,
Chris

Quote :

Yes – finally a grandfather. I am sure she has her grandfathers good-looks genes.

Quote :

My intention was to pull yours and Dennis’s legs – basically saying that the original posting has evolved from a post about the Aqua Master shortage to a debate on the world pet food industry. It’s amazing how these things develop.

Thats why i commented about the Appels. I think this was the turning point in the discussions.

Quote :

If we can get what is “ideal” we can look at it and see if it’s practical and even what it would cost.

Now thats what i like to hear!!! Does this mean we can give you wishlist for the possible "NEW" shogun?

Actually according to an independant dog food analysis company...... you will be shocked to hear that their opinion on Pedigree is really quiet horrifying....... and sadly I do agree with them.......

Here is their review on the Pedigree Complete Nutrition

"This food receives a 1 star rating simply because there is nothing lower.

The primary ingredients in the food are grains (it should be meat!). Corn is a problematic grain that is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems. We prefer not to see this used in dog food.

Meat and bone meal is a low quality meat product for which it is impossible to determine the source.

Corn appears a second time as corn gluten meal. The AAFCO definition of corn gluten meal is “the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of corn starch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm”. In plain English, that which remains after all the nutritious bits have been removed.

The next ingredient is by-products. It is impossible to ascertain the quality of by-products and these are usually products that are of such low quality as to be rejected for use in the human food chain, or else are those parts that have so little value that they cannot be used elsewhere in either the human or pet food industries. The AAFCO definition of chicken by-product meal is “a meal consisting of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.”

Animal fat is a further low quality ingredient and is impossible to determine the source. Unidentified ingredients are usually very low quality. AAFCO define this as "obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial processes of rendering or extracting. It consists predominantly of glyceride esters of fatty acids and contains no additions of free fatty acids. If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative".

This food uses chemical preservatives (BHA, BHT) which is believed to be carcinogenic, and is banned from use in human food. It also uses artificial colourants.

The 6th and 12th ingredients are fragments of wheat. The use of wheat is a significant negative: wheat is believed to be the number one cause of allergy problems in dog food. This is another ingredient we prefer not to see used at all in dog food.

So - your dogs may be ok now....... but will they be ok in a couple of years time?

Perhaps Wayne you might like to take this off line - as this is now really getting off the beaten track on Koi Nutrition - and I will show you how you can feed you dogs a 100% balanced and complete diet - which you can make yourself from home and it will nto cost you an arm and a leg! Yes, there are natural foods you can buy - but you can also make your own food - which I can guarantee you will result in your dogs living a longer, happier and healthier life!

You have my personal email - feel free to email me if you wish to pursue this!

Oh, and I nearly forgot!
Congratlations Chris!
You are a OUPA!!!!

Thanks Julie, ill chat to you later. You know from a consumer and pets owner point of view i was under the impression that i was doing pretty well as those chunky nugget things from pedigree is very expensive. My dogs chow roughly 20kg of pedigree in a month. And pedigree does have very nice packaging.

Coming back to this discussion:

The part i am most excited about is this from chris neaves

"If we can get what is “ideal” we can look at it and see if it’s practical and even what it would cost."

Julie maybe you can make some suggestions regarding ingredients. I know we will never come to 100% agreement but maybe something better in general for all. Maybe this will be the birth of a new fish pellet.

Not wanting the offend chris or shogun but there are some things that i would like improved maybe we can all make suggestion and Oupa chris can listen / take note. I would not mind to pay slightly more for better local made product. Chris your glossy packaging is 100%

1. Some of the shogun pellets sink imediatly as they hit water and they fall apart if they are not eaten immediatly. My bottom drain and diffuser combination is very efficient and pellets that sink are drawn into the bottom drain within seconds causing the food to be wasted and adding to the maintenance of the pond.

2. Batch consistancy - This is basically just an adendum to above, some batches sink others dont.

Extract/Copy from this site, different viewpoint interesting reading matter
http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=63&limit=1&limitstart=3

Protein - The Building Blocks:

Many hobbyists seem to get hung up on the protein percentages that are shown on fish food labels, without truly understanding exactly what those numbers mean.

The protein percent on a fish food label doesn't really tell you anything about the quality of the protein. The value of protein is directly related to the amino acid content, such as Arginine, Histidine, Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Trytophan, and Valine, which essentially are the building blocks for muscle and growth. The protein percent shown on a label doesn't tell you how that protein was processed, or if it's even in a form that your fish can properly digest and utilize. Unless that protein can be fully digested by your fish, the crude protein percent on a label becomes somewhat meaningless.

High quality protein that is easily digested by fish does not cause gastrointestinal issues, no matter if the fish is classified as herbivorous, omnivorous, or carnivorous. Excess protein is for the most part excreted as waste. The idea of excess protein causing bloat, or any type of gastrointestinal issues in herbivores, is totally inaccurate. Poor quality protein, as well as other hard to digest ingredients, can cause bloat, etc., but easily digestible protein will never cause any dietary issues. Hobbyists that keep carnivores want the highest protein percentage in a food that they can find, those that keep herbivores seem to want the least, with neither of them understanding the basic principles involved. My advice is to forget about the numbers posted on a label, and concentrate on the quality of the protein.

The ingredients listed on a food label are your first clue as to the quality of the food's protein content. Avoid those that contain too much grain such as wheat middlings, corn, brans, flour, potatoes, or protein derived from Soybean meal. (As indicated by the first ingredients listed; the ingredients that are listed first are the most prevalent ingredients). Look instead for foods with high-quality, marine-based proteins such as whole Herring, Krill, Mussel, and Squid at the top of their ingredient lists.

Many people think of Fish meal as being a poor quality source of protein. This is simply not true. Fish meal is used in a wide variety of animal feed applications including pet food, poultry, and protein blends. Fish meal is an excellent source of protein and is rich in essential amino acids, fats, and vitamins and minerals. High quality Fish meals such as Herring meal are processed from whole fish, not processing plant by-products.

Certain types of lower quality meals are most likely the cause for Fish meal getting a "bad rap" over the years, and if the Fish meal is comprised of processing plant by-products such as heads, scales, and bones,it will usually result in excessive ash content in the final product. Some fish food labels do not even list the maximum ash content. Obviously it is also much less costly for a manufacturer to use these types of raw ingredients, compared to a high quality source of marine protein such as South Antarctic Krill, Herring, Mussel, or Squid. On the other hand, if the Fish meal is not listed in the first ingredient and the ash content is less than 9%, it usually indicates that too much Soybean, Corn gluten, or Blood meal is being used. While some fish such as Koi can assimilate large amounts of Soybean meal and Corn gluten, most tropical species cannot. Blood meal, though high in protein, is low in many essential amino acids.

Also keep in mind that a green colored food does not necessarily contain a large quantity of vegetable matter, any more than a red colored food equates to Krill being used as the primary ingredient.

Carbohydrates:

Fish do not use carbohydrates very efficiently, and in quality feeds their use is primarily as a binding agent during the manufacturing process. Without some grain the food would simply not hold together. Due to the fact that carbohydrates can be used as a rather inexpensive source of energy in fish foods, some foods utilize a high amount of grains in their formulas to reduce feed costs. The logic is, if it's cheaper, then why not? Grains do have their place in fish foods, serving as binders and to help synthesize lipids and protein. However, if excessive amounts are used, those excess amounts can get stored as fat and also will increase the total amount of undigested solid waste being expelled by the fish. This leads to unwanted pollution being added to your aquarium. Grain by-products also are very difficult to digest by many species, and when used excessively can cause gastrointestinal issues due to poor digestibility and absorption rates. Consequently, pathogenic bacteria start multiplying inside the intestinal tracts, doubling their population as quickly as every 20 minutes, resulting in bloat. In most cases this condition is extremely contagious and the end result usually is fatal.

Congratulations Chris!

Enjoy the grandchild; I am sure he or she will give you lots of memorable moments

Thanks Bobby ..... really appreciated.

Kind regards,
Chris

Thanks koicare - I wish you had a name -
Kind regards,
Chris

Yippie – we are going to re-invent the wheel.

Let’s hear your suggestions.

Regards,
Chris.

P.S. Wayne, never had the problem with Shogun pellets coming apart quickly in the water even in my pond where some disappear into the skimmer and I scoop these pellets – yes, still pellets - out the following day.

Some customers want all the pellets to float. Some want a percentage to sink for the shy fish the feed lower down in their collections. Some want 6mm pellets some want 7mm pellets and some want 8 mm pellets. Some customers want the pellets to red and green and some want a natural colour to the pellets. The list goes on ...... oh dear, I don’t think I will ever please everyone all the time.

P.P.S.S. – Wayne are your dogs OK – even after the statements by koicare? If they are OK – I mean healthy and happy is there actually anything wrong with Pedigree or is it in the mind now that you have been told certain things?

Hi koicare ..
please let me have the independent animal food labs name - the one which graded Pedigree a one star. Also I would be interested in the diet you recommend.
Do you have my email?
Regards,
Chris

And thanks for the kind words Wayne.
Regards,
Chris

Chris Neaves wrote:

P.P.S.S. – Wayne are your dogs OK – even after the statements by koicare? If they are OK – I mean healthy and happy is there actually anything wrong with Pedigree or is it in the mind now that you have been told certain things?

My dogs are fine, i have not had issues as yet. I was not really looking for an alternative to pedigree at all - never mentioned it. I thought i was doing fine but i guess there is no harm in keeping an open mind and hearing what the alternatives are.

Quote :

P.S. Wayne, never had the problem with Shogun pellets coming apart quickly in the water even in my pond where some disappear into the skimmer and I scoop these pellets – yes, still pellets - out the following day.

The breaking apart story.. i had that in a previous post but removed it as i do not want to upset people unnessarily and i do think that it has todo with my feeding location...although it does not happen to aqua master. But it might be that their pellets contains more binders.

I run my air diffuser during feeding times to keep the pellets away from the skimmer. So the koi gets fed in the deep section of the pond where there are 2 jets returning water, a venturi and an above water level jet. So the pellets are drifting in "the rough seas" and this is where i have noticed it. The air diffuser pushes the pellets to the wall and this is where shogun acts diffrently. The other pellets remain pusehd agains the wall while shogun sinks and gets pulled towards the air from the diffuser, from here it gets pushed back up and the stoory repeats itself. So in about 3minutes time i have pellets falling apart.

Some pellets just sink - end of story. They dont float at all. I would say this is propably 20% of a packet. If i take a hand full and just toss it into the water you will see it. I had a real bad batch before. It was small pellets - a 20kg, and the majority of it sank straight away - but seeing as i got the 20kg as a gift from you i was not going to complain it. Im not sure if this is done deliberately for other people.

Quote :

Yippie – we are going to re-invent the wheel.

Chris, just have listen to what people suggest, its still your choice in the end and you might end up with a bigger user base and more happy clients.

Quote :

The list goes on ...... oh dear, I don’t think I will ever please everyone all the time.

We need Shogun Pro!!! in Red and white packing.

Quote :

And thanks for the kind words Wayne.

No problem, not sure what i said but i like being thanked so you are welcome.

I actually thought I was doing fine on commercial kibble - in fact I was feeding Royal Canin - so you can imagine my surprise when I checked the reviews of their food..... Over the years I have also used Eukanuba and Hills - I also checked their reviews...... quiet shocking indeed!

Prior to the 3 GSD's I have now - I had 2 (a male and female) and all the trouble started to happen after the age of 5.. up to that point I had always fed Eukanuba..... I had done everything right..... my dogs suffered on and off from minor conditions like Skin Allergies, Ear Infections, Runny Noses, Weepy or Gunky Eyes - my dogs looked ok - but their coats where never shiny or soft to the touch..... and then the big trouble started to happen - we had a severe stomach torsion, which resulted in the loss of a spleen, we had Pancreatitis (nearly killed my female), Lupus, Cancer, constant bouts of Diarrhea / Protein Allergy / Tooth Absess, Lumbar Sacral Stenosis, and Hip Displaysia..... you name it…. I (we) have experienced it! You do not even want to ask me what my vet bills have totaled in the last 16 years! Let alone the amount of grey hairs I have today as a result of this! We do not even want to discuss the excruciating pain some of my animals suffered! I can not tell you what it feels like when you are screaming down the highway at 2am in the morning, exceeding all speed limits with a dog which has torsioned its stomach, which you know is in excruciating pain, and you realise that you are quite probably not going to make it there in time! Luckily I did! Luckily my dogs sleep inside, and luckily my male came to me to wake me up immediately….. Others have not been so lucky!

With the 3 I have now - I inherited a brood bitch - which came to me with Ulcerative Collitis - we were at the Vet every month - where she would stay for 3 - 5 days at a time.... changing her Diet cured this completely! I also have 2 Puppies - 22 months old and 7 months old. They have been on a natural diet....NOT a BARF diet (Bones and Raw food) - a completely natural diet....... This is completely different. I had the 2 puppies at Dr Gary Eckersley (One of the BEST Veterinary Speciliasts - who also advocates feeding your pets a natural diet, and Vets send patients to him that they can not cure themselves.....as well as Xrays etc for his opinion) in the last 2 weeks for a full check up - this included Full Blood Analysis - Urine Analysis, Stool Analysis - Hip Xrays, Elbow Xrays and Spinal Xrays - - Tests for both dogs cost R 3 400-00 - so you can imagine the extent of these tests - His verdict "he is so happy with their results!!!"

My dogs are soft and shiny (Dr Eckersley even commented about their coats) - their eyes gleam - they have a sparkle to them - they are not in good health - they are in IMPECCABLE health! They do not shed like they used to - they feel like velvet -and the best news is that we do not go to the Vet anymore........

So do not think that just because your pets seem fine now, that they are..... When I moved mine over to natural feeding I got quiet a surprise with their detoxing....if anyone is more interested - please pm or email me I donot want to take up this forum discussing my dogs or natural diets for dogs.....

Chris - go to http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html then select the letter of the alphabet for the food you want to search for..and WALLA - their 100% independant review....

You can email me on koicare@mweb.co.za and I will provide you with ALL the research and evidence you need to assure you that Commercial Dog food is not the way to go if you want your dogs to live longer, happier and healthier lives. As well as some diets - if you are happy to cook for your pets! I will even give you a contact for "Woolies - Ostrich" at rediculously low prices - direct from Klein Karoo and they deliver in JHB!

Oh, and I do have a name (and a face) - Julie

koicare wrote:

Corn appears a second time as corn gluten meal. The AAFCO definition of corn gluten meal is “the dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of corn starch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm”. In plain English, that which remains after all the nutritious bits have been removed.

According to the above we can deduce that corn is nutritious? But this statement is not exactly accurate - mealies/corn contains some protein and a lot of carbohydrate. By removing the carbohydrate portion of the corn you are left with the protein.

So corn gluten has -
Crude protein – 60% min
Crude fat – 1% min
Crude fibre – 3% max
Digestible protein – 98%

This is a high protein additive for animal feeds. It is also much cheaper than animal protein sources. So why not use it?

Regards,
Chris

You missed the first part:

"The primary ingredients in the food are grains (it should be meat!). Corn is a problematic grain that is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems. We prefer not to see this used in dog food. "

When you say digestible protein - accordingly to who and what species?

Lets look at the ingredients to see what their problem is with the food ingredients:

Ingredient list:
Ground yellow corn, meat and bone meal, corn gluten meal, chicken by-product meal, animal fat (preserved with bha/bht), wheat mill run, natural poultry flavor, rice, salt, potassium chloride, caramel color, wheat flour, wheat gluten, vegetable oil, vitamins (choline chloride, dl-alpha tocopherol acetate [source of vitamin e], l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate [source of vitamin c*], vitamin a supplement, thiamine mononitrate [vitamin b1], biotin, d-calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement [vitamin b2], vitamin d3 supplement, vitamin b12 supplement), trace minerals (zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide).


*not recognized as an essential nutrient by the aafco dog food nutrient profiles.


GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Crude Protein (Min.) 21.0%
Crude Fat (Min.) 9.0%
Crude Fiber (Max) 4.0%
Moisture (Max.) 12.0%
Vitamin E (Min.) 225 IU/kg
Vitamin C* (Min.) 70 mg/kg


METABOLIZABLE ENERGY: 290 kcal per 8 oz cup
---------------------------------------
Here is their Cons of this food:
Insufficient meat content, by-products, low quality grains, fat and meat products of unidentifiable origin, carcinogenic preservative, artificial colourant.
---------------------------------------
Ground Yellow Corn - 1st on the list
Meat and bone meal - 2nd on the list
Corn gluten Meal - 3rd on the list
Chicken by-product meal - 4th on the list
Animal Fat (preserved with bha/bht) - 5th on the list
Wheat mill run - 6th on the list

Look at the Source of Protein - Ideally the first ingredient of a dog food should be a specified meat, followed by a specified meat meal - ie: Lamb / Chicken / Beef and then Chicken Meal / Beef Meal etc.

Ingredients to Avoid: Blood Meal / Chicken By-product Meal / Corn Distillers Dried Grains With Solubles / Corn Germ Meal / Corn Gluten Meal / Meat Meal / Poultry Meal / Soybean Meal. What to Look for Instead: Chicken / Turkey / Lamb / Chicken Meal / Beef Meal etc


Look at the Binders:
Ingredients to Avoid: Corn Gluten / Wheat Gluten


Look at the Preservatives - Quality products are preserved naturally, but sadly there is almost always a possibility of products containing hidden preservatives and additives, since manufacturers only have to declare ingredients on the label that they have added themselves. If they purchase for example fish oil and meal, fats or other prepared ingredients from suppliers with stabilizers and other additives already added, these do not have to be listed. The higher the ingredient quality, the less effort must be made to delay further degradation of the product, making natural antioxidants like rosemary extract and vitamin E very effective. Any chemical preservative should not be trusted, some of them are even banned from human consumption in some countries outside of the U.S. due to their questionable side effects.

Ingredients to Avoid: BHA (Butylated Hydroxysanisole), BHT (Butylated Hydroxytoluene), Ethoxyquin, TBHQ (Tertiary Butylhydroquinone), Sodium Metabisulphite. Some of these are known CARCINOGENICS - and animal testing has been done on this. What to look for instead: Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E), Rosemary, Sage, or Clove Extract, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Ascorbic Acid and other forms of Vitamin C .


Look at the Source of Fat - Dogs need a certain amount of fats and oils in their diet, mostly for skin and coat health, but also for proper brain development and other critical processes in the body - and in this regard some are more valuable than others. As food ingredients they should be specifically named and of high nutritional value. Beef tallow and lard make foods highly attractive to dogs and are not harmful, but they are high in saturated fat and low in valuable fatty acids.

Ingredients to Avoid: Animal Fat / Beef Tallow / Lard / Poultry Fat / Vegetable Oil / Generic Fish Oil / Mineral Oil
What to look for Insead: Olive Oil, Sunflower Oil / Canola Oil etc

So if you now look at thes ingredients - how is this anything like what dogs would eat? Where is the MEAT? Plus they are using chemicals which are known carcinogenics (cause cancer and have been banned from human food use?)

Plus no-one is taking into account that dogs as most other species are simply not meant to eat foods which contain Glutamate and Asparate.....

1) There are 4 known "foods" that can induce villous atrophy of the small intestine*: gluten, casein, soy, and corn. The gluten comes from the gluten grains- wheat, barley, and rye. Casein comes from cow's milk products and is mostly absent in goat's milk, which contains a different form of casein. The relative absence of casein in goat's milk is what makes it the "universal foster milk".

(*The villi are the tiny, finger-like projections that absorb nutrients. Atrophy is the wasting away/destruction of these villi.)

2) Adhesives are made from these four foods. Powerful, industrial-strength glues are made from soy, casein, and gluten. Corn is also used to make adhesives but those made from this food are considerably weaker, being used for paper/cardboard products. On the other hand, the other three can be used to make glues capable of holding metal together. The glycoproteins from these foods are clearly very sticky by nature and it should be easily understood why they adhere to tissues.

3) Simple-stomached animals (non-ruminants) are incapable of completely breaking down these "glues". These troublesome glycoproteins do adhere to the intestinal villi after passing from the stomach, surviving the action of the acids designed to break down most foods. This is the known pathophysiology of celiac disease as this adherence of gluten to the intestinal lining and the ensuing immune responses cause serious damage to the duodenal and jejunal villi.

They are now termed "excitotoxins" and are known triggers of seizures and inciters of some neurodegenerative diseases.

Remember that a dog would eat this food every single day of its life.......
and as we all know:

Death begins in the Colon.........


Protein, in the form of quality meat ingredients, is the most important component of a dog's diet. As animals with a carnivorous background, their digestive tract is designed to utilize primarily meat and fat. It is also the most expensive ingredient for a manufacturer to buy and the profit margin on a product is drastically affected by the amount and quality used. Ideally, the first ingredient of a food should be either a specified meat meal, or a specified fresh meat type followed by a meal.

Their definitions for some of the food ingredients used here are:

Corn Gluten:
An inexpensive by-product of human food processing which offers very little nutritional value and serves mainly to bind food together. It is not a harmful ingredient but should be avoided simply for its poor nutritional value and quality.

Meat and Bone Meal
The animal parts used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters and so on. It can also include pus, cancerous tissue, and decomposed (spoiled) tissue.


Chicken By-Product meal
Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. Don't forget that byproducts consist of any parts of the animal OTHER than meat. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.

Animal Fat:
Note that the animal source is not specified and is not required to originate from "slaughtered" animals. The rendered animals can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on.

Wheatmill Run:
An inexpensive byproduct of human food processing, commonly referred to as 'floor sweepings'. An inexpensive filler with no real nutritional value.

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I am sorry - but I would not be feeding this to my pets.....

Julie you are missing your chance- you are suppose to discuss what you would like to see in a local koi food. Chris has been very open with us and has opened the door for a discussion so lets discuss.

Now remember that it is suppose to be good for kois and still affordable for koi keepers.

Julie I know you hate maize you have showed use severy links why it is bad - so what are the alternatives and chris why do you prefer maize? Lets keep this clean.

Even if this gets us nowhere the information will help everyone.

Thanks koicare - now I have learned a lot about dog foods ...

Can we be serious for a moment -

Let's have a brief look at protein - the protein (any source by the way) is digested and this releases free amino acids. These amino acids are absorbed from the intestinal tract and distributed by the blood to the organs and tissues. These same amino acids are used by the various organs and tissues to synthesize new protein. In other words the body can only build cells by using amino acids. Therefore, all animals need a regular intake of protein or should we say amino acids.

Various things have protein in them. Proteins comprise the same amino acids that are recognized by all nutritionists (scientists). Some 22 of them. The level and the actual amino acids in various raw materials will vary. You may even have an ingredient that has a high protein level but is deficient in an essential amino acid.

So the animal eats protein to get at amino acids. It does not eat meat, as an example, for the sake of eating meat. If you know the amino acid profile of what a dog or a fish needs you can build a feed formula. If you know the levels of amino acids you can source them from different ingredients. You can get amino acids from animal and plant sources.

Perhaps meat is best for dogs - but as with the fish industry fish meal is the best protein source and it is becoming horrifically expansive because of a world wide shortage. The same thing will apply to meat.

With regards protein this is the critical criteria - to supply the level and correct balance of amino acids needed by the particular animal, including koi. Where you get the amino acids from is not critical so long as you match what the animal needs. (big gap here for anyone wishing to join the debate)

This apples to all the other nutritional elements such as lipids, carbohydrates, vitamins etc.

If we look around we find that for every positive scientific finding about something some other scientist will discover something negative. It becomes very confusing. It is only a matter of time before some scientist at an obscure university will discover that a hearty bonk is bad for you.

A breif comment on some quotes:
"Look at the Binders:
Ingredients to Avoid: Corn Gluten / Wheat Gluten"

Disagree. Corn Gluten / Rice Gluten or wheat gluten are not binders. The starch/carbohydrate part of the plant has been removed. It is the carbohydrate that is a natural binder.

These glutens are made by stripping away the carbohydrate to get a concentrated protein source (for a plant protein) and to get at a cheap protein source. They contain amino acids not carbohydrates.

"Corn Gluten:
An inexpensive by-product of human food processing which offers very little nutritional value and serves mainly to bind food together. It is not a harmful ingredient but should be avoided simply for its poor nutritional value and quality."

Again I disagree. Corn gluten was designed with animal feeds in mind. It has about 60% protein - that is high in nutritional values (for protein).

I read the rest of the posting but for the life of me I cannot see any pet food manufacturer driving up and down the highways and by-ways looking for "misc. road kills" to add to their beautifully packaged dog or cat foods.

I also get the impression we should be seeing millions of dog deaths if we take everything posted on the internet about dog foods literally. This is not to say there are not some very poor dog and cat foods on the market. And this is not to say that there are not problems with animal nutrition.

Strangely my two spaniels are really healthy. My previous three dobermans lived a good life and were healthy. Tumors very late late in life in two of them - the food or the genetics? My last sausage dog passed at 14 years old.

A further quote:

"and as we all know:

Death begins in the Colon........."

Yes I agree. Which brings us back to - a big poo is better than a small one as we mentioned much earlier in this debate.

Have a good evening.
Regards,
Chris

We could argue these points till the earth ends.....

Is it quiet possible that ALL these different sources could be wrong?

http://www.petchefexpress.ca/why/neveruse.html
Corn Gluten Meal (binder carbohydrate)
Dried residue from corn after the removal of the larger part of the starch and germ, and the separation of the bran by the process employed in the wet milling manufacture of corn starch or syrup, or by enzymatic treatment of the endosperm. It may contain fermented corn extractives and/or corn germ meal.

There is little, if any, nutritional value in this glue-like substance. Dangerous when toxic ingredients like BHA/BHT are included, as these substances will stay in your pet’s system longer.

Ground Yellow Corn (carbohydrate)
Entire corn kernel ground or chopped. It must contain not more than 4% foreign material. May also appear in the ingredient list of a mixed feed as Corn Meal or Corn Chop. Yellow corn is one of the lowest nutritional varieties of corn. Further, corn is a high allergen for dogs and cats.


Rice Gluten Meal (binder carbohydrate)
No AAFCO definition.


Exactly the same process for corn gluten meal, but with rice. Used by some upscale pet foods, as rice is higher quality than corn. However, the gluten meal is acting primarily as a binder, not a carbohydrate.

In a discussion I had with a company who manufactures feeds - it was stated and I quote:

"You have used example of Wheaten germ v Maize. Maize (corn) is great for e.g. chicken, pigs and cattle, but not so good for fish (number reasons), however feed manufacturer will consider to use it as it cost only ½ price of wheat germ (brutal economics). The same apply to fats (EFA). In general most of local feed producers are using a standard (raw) oils or fats. We possibly were the only ones who are using refined fish oil in our aquatic feeds."

So I am not the only one who believes that Corn etc should not be used in fish feeds - or dog feeds and especially not cat feeds....

On the poo story - because you keep going back to it ...... I would agree that every now and again a good really decent large crap can not be bad for you..... but if you are shitting yourself into a coma - no I do not think that could be good at all!

Sadly - 14 is a low number....... a guy in Cape Town who developed Vondi's (a natural dog food) - and his dogs have been eating it for 14 years - his oldest dog is now 17 ...... and still acts like a spring chicken!

And sadly I quote Dr Zoran Jankovic in his email to me:
"Yea, pet food industry is a nasty business. There is big propaganda machinery and both pet owners and vets have been thoroughly brainwashed. Actually if you are a vet and you want to be a good businessman the best way is to play stupid.

In fact poor cats suffer even more then dogs. Imagine, cats evolved as the species in desert and arid areas, which means they are not designed to drink a lot of water. They should get most of the water from their juicy prey. And we feed them with dry food. It is very sad – and then people say they love animals. And they spend fortune on Hills medicated diets which are again dry food. What a gimmick!

Julie you don’t need to worry about your pups development on natural diet as long as you follow basic guidelines and Ca –P ratio 1.2 -1.
Think about it - commercial pet foods industry developed in last 20-30 years. Before this time we had much less developmental problems in puppies then we see nowadays. Also vets saw fraction of severe conditions we see now. These days I am seeing cancers in 4 or 5 years old dogs which was unheard of before. Not to mention various skin conditions, ear infections etc."

So the deaths that you are talking about that you have never heard about -keep checking the internet - and watch those numbers climb............

Are ALL these overseas vets wrong (let alone the British Journal of Small Animal Practice):

From the British Journal of Small Animal Practice
"A growing number of vets state that processed pet food is the main cause of illness and premature death in the modern dog and cat. In December 1995, the British Journal of Small Animal Practice published a paper contending that processed pet food suppresses the immune system and leads to liver, kidney, heart and other diseases. This research, initially conducted by Dr. Tom Lonsdale, was researched further by the Australian Veterinary Association and proven to be correct."


Dr Gerald Lippert and Bruno Sapy
In a 5 year study and data collected from 522 dogs the results were……(this study was completed in 2003!)
“Our study shows that for food, the animal fed with home made food (based on similar food as the family) reach an average of 13.1 years, as the animals fed with canned industrial food reach an average of 10.4 years. The animals fed with mixed food (home made plus canned food) reach an average of 11.4 years. The differences between the two extremes amounts to more than 32 months, ie: close to 3 years. This great difference shows that food is a major and determinant factor for the dogs’ life expectancy. Giving it home made food is a guarantee for better protection, well being and longer life expectancy.”

It then continues…..
“The nature reasserts its rights and shows its value and importance. Taking into consideration the importance of the diet and its quality, shown as a dominant factor for the dogs’ life expectancy, we think that it is essential that all parties concerned, ie: labs’ researchers, manufacturers, veterinarians, proprietors, come together and talk in order to give complete satisfaction to the animals’ nutritional requirements and improve, this way its “WELL BEING”.


Dr. Ian Billinghurst, B.V.Sc.(Hons), BSc.Agr., Dip.Ed.
"The sad truth is that prepared pet foods help provide patients for vets."
"As a veterinary student in the early seventies, I found it hard to understand why Aussie vets had fewer and simpler dog and cat diseases to deal with than the Americans. ---- There was a simple explanation. At that time, more than seventy percent of Aussie dogs were still fed raw bones and scraps. They were still pretty healthy. American dogs had been eating processed food and no bones for decades. They had developed a wide range of problems. Their vets had been forced to develop a complex set of diagnostic and therapeutic tools to deal with them. I need not have worried. Our dogs' disease problems are increasing on a par with their increasing consumption of processed and cooked foods. We Aussie vets now have to be as good as our American counterparts to deal with them. There are many reasons why the commercial pet foods have never been close to a dog's natural diet. Those reasons include the fact that they are based on grain, and that they are cooked."


Dr. Richard Pitcairn, DVM
"...When I began to suggest the feeding of raw meat I found animals becoming more healthy even without other treatment. Indeed, I have frequently had the report that people find their animals become healthy when they make this change and diseases for which they were hoping to have treatment (on a waiting list) have disappeared. Since that time, other veterinarians have told me similar things about the use of raw meat. I do not have numbers but I think the veterinarians recommending raw meat in the US are in the hundreds. My experience, albeit clinical and not based on studies, is that my patients have improved health on a raw diet. Furthermore, I have not seen significant parasite problems. Dogs and cats, being carnivores by nature, are meant to eat raw meat and do not have a problem doing so."

"Although we have come to accept commercial foods as being normal or natural ways to feed animals (and indeed ourselves), in fact they are not. They are simply what we've gotten used to in the last few decades. But nothing we can produce commercially ever can rival those mysteriously complex foods manufactured for eons by nature itself."


Dr. Denise Miller, DVM and author of What's Wrong With our Pets?
"The prevalence of cancer and autoimmune related diseases in our pets is directly correlated to the processed foods we are feeding them. We are literally starving them to death of nutrients while stuffing them to the point of obesity with garbage."


Dr. Christina Chambreau, DVM
"Meat should be raw. Cooking destroys enzymes and denatures the proteins rendering them less digestible to cats and dogs."

"Dogs and cats need raw meat to be really healthy and even the best processed foods cook their good ingredients, & most commercially available foods, even the expensive ones, use the cheapest ingredients (that means dead, diseased and decaying meat & by-products)."


Dr. P.F. Mc Gargle, DVM
"Feeding slaughterhouse wastes to animals increases their chance of getting cancer and other degenerative diseases. Those wastes can include moldy, rancid or spoiled meats as well as tissues severely riddled with cancer."


Dr. Wendell O. Belfield, DVM
"Their pets may have diarrhea, increased flatulence, a dull hair coat, intermittent vomiting or prolonged scratching. These are common symptoms associated with commercial pet foods." In 1981, as Martin Zucker and I wrote How to Have a Healthier Dog, we discovered the full extent of negative effects that commercial pet food has on animals. In February 1990, San Francisco Chronicle staff writer John Eckhouse went even further with an expose entitled "How Dogs and Cats Get Recycled into Pet Food".


Dr. Allen M. Schoen, D.V.M., M.S.
Seizures in Dogs & Cats: An Integrative Approach with Natural Options
“The first step is to consider a more natural diet. In my opinion, nothing beats a home-made balanced natural diet! I stress balanced, because an unbalanced diet can be just as bad as a poor quality processed food. The purpose is to try to remove any possibility of chemical sensitivities to different food additives, preservatives or other chemicals. I have seen dogs with occasional seizures completely resolve with a home made natural balanced diet”


Dr. William Pollak, DVM
"Health is an inevitable by-product of natural raw foods for our pets."

"Survival is insured by commercial food; nothing more; not health, not the robustness for life."

"The results of a clinical trial suggest that 74.7% of common diseases in dogs and 63% of common diseases in cats can be eliminated without medical intervention over a period of one year with proper diet modifications and an understanding of the healing process as exhibited through healing episodes. Approaching disease from the perspective of health is the most powerful means of eliminating disease. Poor fuel makes for little momentum in life. The commercial food we are feeding' is the disease we are treating - so treat on and on, curing one disease after another, again and again."


Dr. Randy Wysong, DVM
”Nutrition is serious health business. The public is not well served by exclusively feeding products from companies without any real commitment to health... or knowledge of how to even achieve that”.

"Recent studies have shown processed foods to be a factor in increasing numbers of pets suffering from cancer, arthritis, obesity, dental disease and heart disease".


Dr. Charles E. Loops, DVM
"The best diet is a raw food diet."

"Science Diet & Hill's dog & cat food products are not good diets. They use chemical preservatives that have been shown to cause problems in some animals & they use by-products, which are words on the ingredient label that need to be avoided at all costs. This generally means food not utilized for human consumption."


Dr. Donald Strombeck, PhD, DVM
"If salmonella really is a problem, ( when it comes to feeding raw meat to pets) then we should be just as concerned with processed pet food". "Salmonellae has been found in commercial pet foods, something the public never learns."


Dr. Tom Lonsdale DVM
Regarded the ‘pandemic of periodontal disease in pets’ as a major cat and dog health issue, calling the canine condition “Foul-mouth AIDS”, because he saw the bacterial proliferation in dog’s mouths as suppressing their immune systems, leading to a host of health problems. For his advocacy, he was expelled from the Australian Veterinary Association.


Dr. T. J. Dunn, Jr. DVM
“During my thirty years of veterinary practice I have often been upset by the poor condition I see some of my canine patients in due to inferior quality diets that the owner honestly believes to be adequate. In good faith the dog owner assumes that since the dog food label proclaims "complete and balanced", "premium", "high protein", and so on, that their dog will automatically do just great if that's all it is fed. Because of ambiguous or deceptive labeling of the dog food, the owner unknowingly will feed an inadequate diet. And it may be decades before the FDA requires more strict guidelines for dog food manufacturers to follow so that misleading, ambiguous, and sometimes phony labeling practices no longer confuse or trick the purchaser.”


Dr. Jeffrey Levy DVM PCH
“The benefits of a natural diet go beyond merely preventing disease. After only 3-4 weeks on the new diet, people usually notice a dramatic improvement in the skin and coat, less odor, fewer fleas, brighter eyes, and better energy and behavior. Not only can you see the signs of improved health, but you will also save money in the long run due to fewer and lower veterinary bills. The healthier your pet is, the less likely s/he will be to have fleas, skin problems, allergies, heartworms, feline leukemia, dental disease, and many other common disease problems.”


Dr. R.Geoffrey Broderick DVM
“Every time a pet trustingly eats another bowl of high sugar pet food, he is being brought that much closer to diabetes, hypoglycemia, overweight, nervousness, cataracts, allergy and death."


Dr. Alfred Plechner, DVM
"The most common and most visible symptoms of nutritionally caused deficiencies are allergies of one kind or another. Because many commercial foods are woefully deficient in key nutrients, the long-term effect of these foods makes the dog hypersensitive to its environment. . . . [It's a dinosaur effect. Animals are being programmed for disaster, for extinction. Many of them are biochemical cripples with defective adrenal glands unable to manufacture adequate Cortisol, a hormone vital for health and resistance to disease." Allergies can be, and often are, unrecognized deficiency diseases."


Now you have given me a head ache.........

Hell,

always sparks flying between Oupa Chris and some De Villiers

Just for a total giggle.......

Koi require 10 Essential Amino Acids in their diet.....these have to be provided.....

Quote
"With regards protein this is the critical criteria - to supply the level and correct balance of amino acids needed by the particular animal, including koi. Where you get the amino acids from is not critical so long as you match what the animal needs. (big gap here for anyone wishing to join the debate)"
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Now leather has all the essential amino acids required by koi.....

So for your next feed - all you have to do is just take your Gucci's and sommer gooi them in the pond....all will be well......

If only, Koi could talk