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 Aqua Master shortage

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wayneb

wayneb

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PostSubject: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeMon Apr 13, 2009 6:22 pm

Hi All

I heard last week from my koi dealer that the importers of Aqua Master does not have any growth, premium or staple left in South Africa and they wont be importing any until December. As far as i understand they only have Wheatgerm left. I have mailed the importer directly to get the info directly from the source. I also notice that the webste www.aquamasterkoifood.com is offline...

Now for me personally not having Aqua Master is a bit of a setback as that is the main food that i raise my koi on.


Wayne
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 11:44 am

I got some feedback today. Luckily the shortage is not going to be for so long as i've been told. Very Happy

From Dennis (Sandton Aquatics)

Quote :
Dear Wayne,

Due to the fact that Sandton Aquatic now has new owners, there has been a delay in the ordering of Aqua Master.

This has now been resolved and are next shipment should arrive within the next 4-5 weeks.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

Regards

Dennis.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 1:19 pm

Aag Man!

Druk toe jou neus en koop AquaNitro Rolling Eyes
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Admin
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Admin

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 2:21 pm

Ja Wayne, moet nie so "set in your mind" wees nie:lol:

_________________
Paul Viljoen
E Mail: koi@absamail.co.za ; http://www.koionline.co.za

Koi are not my whole life but make my life whole
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 2:32 pm

Local is nie altyd lekka nie - ek sal klein bietjies shogun gebruik maar geen Aqua Nutro nie. Dit stink en die waste is ver teveel. Ek het selfs vir hulle ge email daar oor en hulle het nie eers gerespond nie....

Ek gebruik Aqua Master, Ichiban en Shogun. Dit werk lekker!


Last edited by wayneb on Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:50 pm; edited 3 times in total
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cam0



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 3:16 pm

Price wise for Aqua master, Ichiban, Shogun and Aqua Nitro?

What is the best value for money?
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeFri Apr 17, 2009 3:18 pm

Cam0 that is something you need to figure out for yourself - as no one will agree on this subject.

Price wise Aqua Nutro is the cheapest followed by Shogun, Ichiban and then Aqua Master. I do not say that cheap is bad.

Here in the western cape the following people use Aqua Master:

Johan Jacobs
Ernst Van Dyk
Quinton Jones
Drikus Van Dijk
Wayne Barker (Me)
Louis Crous
Magmoed Slamang
Eugen Binnedel

If you go and look at those names you will see that all of them are KoiShowing people...

Johan and Ernst have been feeding Aqua Master for very long times and have got very good results with it. - Both have won Grand champion awards in the western cape and southern cape. Ernst has recently switched over to Hikari.

I find that Aqua Master is good for growth and Shogun helps them to put on bulk. I mix it ata ratio of 80 / 20.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 12:51 pm

Koi Foods don’t produce Koi Champions. It is all genetic!

Keeping Koi in a good condition, you should view its environment as a complete unit.
Taking in account, temperatures, water quality, stress levels, pond volume against fish stocks, etc.

Fresher food is always better, as with time the strength and value regarding ingredients would lose its feeding elements to its performance. Most of the claims regarding ingredient percentage claim on a food package of imported food are in fact much lower by the time you feed it to your Koi.

So for me, local is better in this case, but it will never change an R5- Koi into a Supreme Grand Champion!
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 4:51 pm

Quote :
Koi Foods don’t produce Koi Champions. It is all genetic!

Yes Pieter I agree, BUT

I do not believe that the Gold medalist eat junk food like me Embarassed

Good food will at least give the Koi a chance to reach the genetic potential and skin luster that all show mad people strive for. I am aware of the other factors as well, but good food in my mind is one of the key elements to success with good bloodline Koi.

LG

Next time you see Ernst or one of our SA swimmers in the KFC queue tell him from me, it does not work. lol!
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sas



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 5:02 pm

I think,

A koi Champions = 50% Genetic + 30% Water quality + 20% Quality of food.
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Marius Bezuidenhout

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 5:35 pm

Hi Guys

Just to stir things a bit more. Even my cheap fish eat a proper meal Very Happy
Most of them stay ugly but the latest 7 seems to be smiling more than the boss who must buy the food

Aqua Master shortage Hikarifood

More about Saki Hikari:

The rapid, bacterial decomposition of the koi's waste caused by the "Hikari Germ" drastically reduces buildup in the filter media thereby reducing the frequency of regularly scheduled maintenance. Overall improvement of the water clarity and condition are side benefits of this process


Last edited by Marius Bezuidenhout on Sat Apr 18, 2009 6:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ernst

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 6:20 pm

Bobby wrote:
Quote :
Koi Foods don’t produce Koi Champions. It is all genetic!

Next time you see Ernst or one of our SA swimmers in the KFC queue tell him from me, it does not work. lol!

Nothing wrong with a bit of KFC or Mc Donalds in moderation....almost like a treat for a koi!

On a more serious note..my 50c worth...

High quality food = less waste = better water = healthy enviroment = healthy stress free koi = reaching genetic potencial.

I have an open question - how often do you we see koi come in from Japan and actually improve in SA? I'm not referring to growth, they all grow, I'm talking about the glow, the luster and shinny skin quality. Why is that? Don't give the mudpond saga - SFF, Dainichi and Momotaro all keep all their high quality 3 year olds and older in concrete ponds.
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 7:02 pm

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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 9:09 pm

Hi to everyone -
an interesting debate .....may I hurl a cat amongst the pigeons (does that sound right?)

Firstly:
wayneb wrote:
Cam0 that is something you need to figure out for yourself - as no one will agree on this subject.

Price wise Aqua Nutro is the cheapest followed by Shogun, Ichiban and then Aqua Master. I do not say that cheap is bad.


It is very important to compare apples with apples. When comparing the price of any koi food with another koi food the same foods should be compared to each other.

As manufacturer of Shogun I make only one food. It is a 40% protein food and the detailed nutritional analysis by independent laboratories are available. When comparing the price of my food with the price of any other food please compare the equivalent products to each other. It is very easy to make a koi food with 26 -30% protein and not guarantee the amino acid profile. It is very easy to make a koi food with corn gluten or chicken meal as a protein source. It works out very much cheaper.

So when I recently quoted a dealer up here in Gauteng a price on Shogun and he said to me that it did not compete with the food he brought into the country - he had a cheap koi food and is selling vast quantities. I diplomatically pointed out to him that food is around 16% protein and 64% carbohydrate (no where near his packaging's claim of 38% protein) whereas Shogun is 40% protein and we make every 4 - 6 weeks he lost interst in the conversation.

With regards less waste from koi foods - I suppose this will always be a point of debate - but I recall what the the lady who was the consulting nutritionist to Shogun when we first started in 1995. She is consultant to the Government on animals feeds and we had access to the Waltham nutritional data base.

A very down to earth person we were discussing a koi food that was imported from the UK at that time and they claimed this food was 98% digestible.

One has to pause for a moment and think about the implications of this. Does an animal want 98% of what it eats to be digestible - I think not.

All koi foods have a ratio of protein to carbohydrate. The protein is the source of animo acids and the carbohydrate is the energy source. Discarding the small percentage of vitamin and mineral premixes and discarding the binders, colorants (to make the pellets red or green), anti-molds etc -you will always have a ratio of protein to carbohydrate to make up the 100% of the formulation mix.

As the protein level increases so the carbohydrate level decreases. Carbohydrate sources are much cheaper than protein sources. So you can make cheaper koi foods by using more carbohydrate than protein.

So do you want more carbohydrate to be digested and absorbed or do you want more protein?

But back to the nutritionist - she said a very pertinent thing about the digestibility of animal feeds - it is very important to get the gut moving in animals (as in humans) hence the 3 - 4% fibre in koi foods is very important. She also said that if it is not a large poo is it not a good one.

I would like to go into some other statements made here and on the referred websites but then it gets long and boring .... however, at the beginning of the year there was an internet debate between Shogun, Hikari (here in SA and Japan) and Tetra regarding wheatgerm koi foods. Very interesting. The internet correspondence has been collated into an article for KOISA and they are going to publish it soon.

Keep the questions coming - this is a most interesting part of koi keeping.

And remember the best koi food is the one that works for you ...

Regards,
Chris
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSat Apr 18, 2009 9:36 pm

Quote :
I would like to go into some other statements made here and on the referred websites but then it gets long and boring .... however, at the beginning of the year there was an internet debate between Shogun, Hikari (here in SA and Japan) and Tetra regarding wheatgerm koi foods. Very interesting. The internet correspondence has been collated into an article for KOISA and they are going to publish it soon.
Hi Chris, Would you mind sharing the link for this topic with the forum, as I would like to read the complete unedited debate on Koi food. One cannot really follow the question and answer debate in this months KOISA.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 1:18 pm

Ernst,

Quote :
I have an open question - how often do you we see koi come in from Japan and actually improve in SA?

To me the answer should be in the water.

I really do think that the water quality in Japan is must better then here in South Africa, and I do not refer to the filter systems used in ponds, more likely the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) of the water before added to the pond itself.
Someone told me the TDS in Japan water is less then 70 ppm with a pH of 7- 7,2. If you look at our water from the local authorities, it would be plus-minus 240 ppm with a ph between 8-8, 7. So with top-up or water changes you adding to the TDS and pH reading to rise.
A TDS recording of more than 800 ppm would indicate a level of pollution, containing everything that can be dissolved into water.
Whereas a reading of 200 ppm or below without having good water management could not be achieved.
The difference between “Japan” and “SA’ water is so big that it is nearly impossible to achieve the standard of water to maintain the quality of Japanese imported Koi.

This is only my opinion!
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 1:56 pm

Pieter
I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am trying to understand this very involved hobby and the importance of good water keeping. I have notice that the salt level severely affects the TDS readings.

Coming back to the food source, would food that produce less waist then not also assist with better water quality. As you know water changes is very important to the water quality but with the municipal water of today, the quality and threats of increased levy's must be a concern.

Do to the nature of my plants I use very little water for gardening with only a 10 000lt pond my monthly water bill is between R650-850 Plus I have now been battling with the authorities for 5 months to pass plans for a new pond.

Maybe when I eventually start digging my new pond I must also check for bore water. Lots of clay around
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happykoi



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PostSubject: Hikari and Genetics   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 4:23 pm

I have read this with some interest.

The quote "Genetics = 50%, water =30% and food =20%" grabbed me personally. I would respectfully disagree.

The ratio is far closer to 99% genetics. I assume every show keeping quality Koi hobbyist will have the water quality waxed and polished - so discounting this entirely and assuming everything else to be equal if the genetics of the Koi are not championship (whatever you may determine this to arbitrarily be!) then the Koi will not be a champion. End of story - finished and klaar.

Of course this makes the assumption that food is 1%. Far from it. The choice of what food to feed is the single biggest contribution you can make to extracting the maximum potential located within that genetic makeup of your Koi.

Make no mistake about it. Growing Koi is about extracting the potential of the living art within the Koi. You will never make the Koi more than it can be - BUT you can certainly ruin it's potential with a crappy food.

Chris and Happy Koi have engaged many times over food - Chris is a gentleman and of course we would rate his food as the best locally produced. However, we obviously differ in context over Hikari!

Saki Hikari doesn't produce much waste - this is a good thing. There is more than enough digestive material in the food but the statement a big poop is a good one needs to be qualified - Saki Hikari doesn't produce big poops since most of the food stays inside the fish - hence the massive growth rates registered with the food. Think if it as the Koi equivalent of Eukanuba - there are few debates about the quality of Eukanuba poop!

Hikari (actually just the brand name - the company is called Kyorin) have manufactured ornamental fish food for over a century. They run one of the largest Koi fish farms in Japan for the single purpose of testing and researching their Koi fish foods. Their multi million dollar laboratory and their research over decades means that what they don't know about Koi nutrition isn't worth knowing. Amino acid profiling, trace elements and ingredient addition is something Hikari pioneered - not just with Koi as it happens. They know what goes on inside the digestive system in a Koi more than anyone else in the world.

The results speak for themselves. Supreme Grand Champion at the All Japan Show for the last 7 years running now. All fed on Saki Hikari, exclusively.

There are no substitutes for quality and consistency in ingredients! Saki Hikari is expensive, relatively speaking only!, because the quality of their ingredients is the highest possible available. Kyorin also produce quantities of Saki that are simply staggering meaning their economies of scale are enormous. If every South African fed only Saki Hikari to their Koi their factories would be busy making up this food order for less than a week to put it into context.

Koi food is NOT a short term investment. You cannot expect to feed a quality Koi food like Saki Hikari for a year and expect results. Koi typically should peak between the ages of 6 and 12 years. You cannot simply feed Hikari for the months before a Koi show and expect massive changes. It doesn't work like that sadly. Koi need to be fed a consistent diet from the very beginnings to extract the best you possibly can from the genetics of the Koi.

There is also considerable skill from the hobbyist that plays a critical role in this process. We all know that you can fly to Japan, plonk down your blank cheque and bring back the Champion. Whilst some of us are able to do this - most of us prefer the challenge of growing our own champions. This skill starts with the selection of the Koi, and then with the way in which you bring this Koi up - contrary to popular belief auto feeders are not the answer...

Selection of your Koi food is thus a critical decision. We've heard the arguments that Saki Hikari is too expensive, and trust us we're working on this! BUT if your Koi are worth a few grand, the cost of the food should be seen in context! We've seen collections of Koi worth several hundred thousand rand utterly ruined by feeding a cheap Koi food. We've seen Koi purchased from us at several tens of thousands of rands - and then being fed food of a few hundred rand - for the year! It is in short, insane.

So in an unashamed punt for Saki Hikari - healthier Koi and healthier water means a healthier pond and a healthier LONG TERM Koi budget. The Japanese understand Koi keeping is not a destination - it is a journey with your Koi.

I also want to mention that even the entry level Hikari foods - the Staple and the Economy/Friend range offer superlative solutions for Koi keepers. We have proven that even Economy delivers massive growth results - and the price of this food is more than affordable. Stay tuned to the Happy Koi News for the next round of pricing on Hikari - we'll think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the seriously large price drop we'll be implementing on the next shipment.

Regards,
William
Happy Koi
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 19, 2009 5:42 pm

Hi William

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to better pricing. bounce

I would like to read the actual unedited internet debate between Hikari (SA and Japan) Terta and Shogun on wheatgerm as quoted by Chris.
Quote :
I would like to go into some other statements made here and on the referred websites but then it gets long and boring .... however, at the beginning of the year there was an internet debate between Shogun, Hikari (here in SA and Japan) and Tetra regarding wheatgerm koi foods. Very interesting. The internet correspondence has been collated into an article for KOISA and they are going to publish it soon.

I agree with the folowing....cheers
Quote :
Saki Hikari doesn't produce much waste
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 3:34 pm

Quote :
Hi Chris, Would you mind sharing the link for this topic with the forum, as I would like to read the complete unedited debate on Koi food. One cannot really follow the question and answer debate in this months KOISA.

Quote :
Hi William

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to better pricing. bounce

I would like to read the actual unedited internet debate between Hikari (SA and Japan) Terta and Shogun on wheatgerm as quoted by Chris.
Quote:
I would like to go into some other statements made here and on the referred websites but then it gets long and boring .... however, at the beginning of the year there was an internet debate between Shogun, Hikari (here in SA and Japan) and Tetra regarding wheatgerm koi foods. Very interesting. The internet correspondence has been collated into an article for KOISA and they are going to publish it soon.

How should the consumer view the lack of response by the Koi food Manufacturers and Suppliers, for the appropriate link and debate as quoted by a Chris Neaves on this forum?

What value can one draw from a collated article in Koisa? The article in April 2009 sets off about Carbohydrate and Koi and the latter half of the article sound like a manufacturer that is very agro and fighting with someone, sorry very difficult to follow could also be a promotion for a locally produced food? Could be edited communication with a 3rd party? Very confusing in my opinion.
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 7:00 pm

Waltham - for anyone who does not know is a "LEADING" Dog and Cat Food Manufacturer - brands like Nutro...Whiskas....Royal Canin... Pedigree etc..

Interesting enough a majority of petfood companies are somehow associated or owned by Human Food Companies..... it is a well known fact that these Human food Companies use their wastes to produce pet food...

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/downloads/pdf/PetFoodReport_05-07.pdf

Nestlé’s bought Purina to form Nestlé Purina Petcare Company (Fancy Feast, Alpo, Friskies, Mighty Dog, Dog Chow, Cat Chow, Puppy Chow, Kitten Chow, Beneful, One, ProPlan, DeliCat, HiPro, Kit’n’Kaboodle, Tender Vittles, Purina Veterinary Diets).
• Del Monte gobbled up Heinz (MeowMix, Gravy Train, Kibbles ’n Bits, Wagwells, 9Lives, Cycle, Skippy, Nature’s Recipe, and pet treats Milk Bone, Pup-Peroni, Snausages, Pounce).
• MasterFoods owns Mars, Inc., which consumed Royal Canin (Pedigree, Waltham’s, Cesar, Sheba, Temptations, Goodlife Recipe, Sensible Choice, Excel).

Other major pet food makers are not best known for pet care, although many of their house hold and personal care products do use ingredients derived from animal by-products:
• Procter and Gamble (P&G) purchased The Iams Company (Iams, Eukanuba) in 1999. P&G shortly thereafter introduced Iams into grocery stores, where it did very well.
• Colgate-Palmolive bought Hill’s Science Diet (founded in 1939) in 1976 (Hill’s Science Diet, Prescription Diets, Nature’s Best)

Private labelers (who make food for “house” brands like Kroger and Wal-Mart) and co-packers (who produce food for other pet food makers) are also major players. Three major companies are Doane Pet Care, Diamond, and Menu Foods; they produce food for dozens of private label
and brand names. Interestingly, all 3 of these companies have been involved in pet food recalls that sickened or killed many pets.

http://www.animalrightsafrica.org/Archive/PetFood/FoodPetsDieForBiophile14FINAL.pdf

Do yourself a favour a visit this link and see their review on the dog or cat food you feed.... they even comment on each food ingredient used in the foods and why you should not use them... (they are updating their web at the moment, so try later on)

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html


Masterfoods - which owns Waltham is yet again in trouble.....
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2009/04/nutro_foia.html

You can also check which brands of foods have been recalled, and just how many times it is the same companies involved....
http://www.fda.gov/oc/opacom/hottopics/petfood.html#recall

When formulating feeds, some, or should I say many Nutritionists work on a "Least Cost Formulation"
http://www.labdiet.com/factsonformulation.htm
This formulation does not mean the the food has a high digestibility.... or even whether the ingredients used are able to be digested by the animal... the same goes with many fish foods.....

Personally I do not understand - "not wanting a food to be digestible - and as highly digestible as possible" - this just makes no sense... Chris perhaps you can share with us why any nutritionist would not want a food to be as digestible as possible? Surely the intention is for the animal / fish etc to be able to assimilate and absorb all the nutrients possible - thereby producing less waste?

When you say "would you rather the fish digests more of the protein or digests more of the carbohydrates" - the fish should be able to digest ALL the nutrition in the food........ the food should be balanced and complete - after all in 90% of cases this is the only food they are eating! If there is too much carbohydrate or the food is not balanced ..... then there is a problem with the formulation.......

I also do not understand why "a large poo - is better than a small one"?

Perhaps you can help me understand this?

Sadly you mentioned a company which to the best of my knowledge is a Dog and Cat Food manufacturer - and not a Koi Food manufacturer..... what specific studies have they done on Koi Food Nutrition? And their research and current dog and cat food has been linked to possibly causing a host of diseases and ailments in dogs and cats - something that they specialise in.........

So I am sorry if I do not have any confidence in "Dog and Cat Food" Companies, let alone any which have been linked to the death or illnesses of Cats and Dogs...

And I quote Dr Pitcairn " As you see, by itself the chemical anaylsis on a label does not mean a whole lot. To underscore this point, one veterinarian concoted a product containing the same composition of the basic proteins, fats and carbohydrates as a common brand of dog food by using "Old Leather Shoes, Crankcase Oil and Wood Shavings."......

Does anyone think that a dog eating this diet would actually get all the nutrients is requires? Let alone whether it would be able to digest it? And I question how long it would live?
The Guaranteed Analysis shown on the information panel of a pet food package tells you how much crude protein, crude fat, fiber, and other vital nutrients are included in your pet's food. It does not, however, provide information about ingredient digestibility. Digestibility, expressed as a percent, is a measure of the amount of food retained in the body after it has been eaten. For example, if a dog eats 8 oz. of food, and produces 3 oz. of stool, the food's digestibility is 63% (the difference between the weight of food eaten and the weight of stool produced, divided by the weight of the food). The digestibility of protein and fat can vary widely depending on their sources.

When I looked up the importance of digestibility on google..... I got:

"Nutrient composition and digestibility are of crucial importance for health and well being of animals."

"Many people make the mistake of judging the quality of a pet food simply by looking at the percentage of protein shown on the label. This is not the best way to judge overall quality for several reasons:

Not all protein is created equal.
Higher protein percentages do not automatically mean higher quality food - the right level of protein for your particular pet is what matters.
Other nutrients levels are necessary for overall health and the proper use of protein by the body.
Let's take a closer look…

Not all protein is created equal

What would you rather feed your pet - four ounces of real chicken meat or four ounces of ground chicken feathers and corn? All three ingredients contain protein, but they are definitely not equal. Ounce for ounce, the real chicken provides more protein, and the protein is highly digestible and usable, allowing pets to eat smaller quantities to receive the optimal level of protein.

In contrast, the ground feathers contain protein, but in a nondigestible form. Digestibility is key to evaluating a protein's nutritional value. Real meat offers highly digestible protein - protein that is easily broken down by your pet's body. Your pet cannot digest and cannot live on the protein contained in feathers. It simply passes through the digestive system unused.

Utilization is another key to evaluating protein sources. Corn has digestible protein that is absorbed, but it is not as usable by the body as the protein from meat or eggs. Corn must be combined with another grain to supply the range of essential amino acids that meat or eggs supply by themselves. Pets will need to eat larger quantities of corn and other grains to obtain the same amount of usable protein that is in chicken.

When comparing pet foods, be sure to consider the type and quality of protein used - not just the quantity. Look for foods with highly digestible, usable protein. Real meat, fish, and eggs, for example, provide your pet with the highest levels of usable protein, while allowing you to feed lesser quantities of food.

Different pets have different protein needs

Many people wrongly assume that a pet food with a high protein level is automatically better for their pet. This is incorrect for two reasons. First, as described above, the quality of the protein is a critical factor - it doesn't matter if a food has a high percentage of protein if the protein comes from a less-digestible or less-usable source. Secondly, optimal protein levels for different life stages and activity levels vary. Senior pets generally require less protein than active adult pets; and active adult pets need less protein than puppies and kittens. Look for a food that provides the optimum level of protein for your pet's particular life stage and activity. Otherwise, you'll feed your pet excess protein that will simply be converted into fat.

A diet must be balanced

Protein is important, but so are the many other essential nutrients in food. Pets cannot live on protein alone. Calories, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals must all be present in the proper levels and ratios for your pet to have a balanced diet and properly use the protein in the food.

Choose your proteins with care

Be a critical thinker when it comes to evaluating the protein in your pet's food - first determine whether the protein is derived from a high-quality source that will give your pet the maximum amount of usable, digestible protein. Then, look at the protein percentage to see how much protein the food includes. Remember, a high protein percentage does not guarantee a healthy, beneficial pet food, especially if it merely shows a high percentage of a lesser-quality protein. Finally, don't forget to look at the other nutrients. Your pet may not be able to use the protein as well if other nutrients are lacking."

I am assuming that the same goes for Koi?
I could be wrong?
Could I?
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 8:17 pm

Wow, lot of information to "DIGEST" Thanks for the info and links.

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Paul Viljoen
E Mail: koi@absamail.co.za ; http://www.koionline.co.za

Koi are not my whole life but make my life whole
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 8:38 pm

good gracious ..... how on earth are we going to answer all this .....

Lets give it a go -

"I would like to read the actual unedited internet debate between Hikari (SA and Japan) Terta and Shogun on wheatgerm as quoted by Chris."

I mentioned this because it was very interesting when it happened. I will respect the relevant individuals requests. If a person debates with you and wishes their entire opinion or part of their opinion not to be placed in the public domain then I respect that request.

Bobby, if you and I corresponded in confidence about something it would remain confidential.

Secondly:

"How should the consumer view the lack of response by the Koi food Manufacturers and Suppliers, for the appropriate link and debate as quoted by a Chris Neaves on this forum?"

Bobby -

I do not sit on forums each and every day of my life. If I attempted to answer all the questions thrown at me on many forums I do believe my head would explode. And we would not want that would we.

A response will arrive when I look at the particular forum and have the time.

In answer to your demands - the links you requested - I recall having this debate around carboyhdrates about 10 years ago. At the time I cut and pasted most of the internet debate for my records. As you know this can be very disconnected and often wonder far off the subject. This was basically made into and article. I admit it was not the greatest contribution to literature but an interesting one never-the-less. Perhaps it should be read in context of an internet debate.

I have had a brief look for the links, not very successfully. I have not had the time to explore the original sites in depth. If I recall correctly they took pace on the NI forum and on the Koibito forum. If you find them please let the others know.

The mentioned debate has been made into an article for publication in KOISA.

Further - consumers, koi keepers, pond keepers, individuals are free to email me directly on any subject related to koi. I ALWAYS respond quickly and honestly to koi questions I receive - any koi questions. I do not profess to know everything, never have and never will, so anything I am not conversant with I will research so I can give and reasonable and honest answer to the person I am corresponding with.

"What value can one draw from a collated article in Koisa? " Perhaps you should read the article first and not preempt it.

The article recently published in KOISA on carbs - every comment - the positive and the negative - has been noted.

You are welcome to email me directly should my contribution not be acceptable.

Kind Regards,
Chris

Now I have to tackle the mammoth posting from koicare .... and I am developing a headache
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage Icon_minitimeSun Apr 26, 2009 9:52 pm

Hi KoiCare ....

Here goes - I hope this email makes sense -

“Waltham - for anyone who does not know is a "LEADING" Dog and Cat Food Manufacturer - brands like Nutro...Whiskas....Royal Canin... Pedigree etc..”

Answer - Waltham – for anyone who does not know, has one of the largest and finest animal nutrition research laboratories and reference libraries in the world. This includes fish nutrition.

FROM -“Interesting enough a majority of petfood companies are somehow associated or owned by Human Food Companies..... it is a well known fact that these Human food Companies use their wastes to produce pet food...”

DOWN TO - “When formulating feeds, some, or should I say many Nutritionists work on a "Least Cost Formulation"

Readers can draw their own conclusions on the relevance of this. However, as koicare points out there are a lot of ingredients used in some koi foods which are not very nice. Feather meal, corn gluten etc etc.

When formulating a food – a koi food – each ingredient – no matter what it is – has specific nutrient properties. This would be the nutrients from amino acids, the level of each amino acid, which vitamins etc. Etc. Each ingredients nutritional values are known before hand and each one is taken into account when formulating a food.

With regards the comment about what goes into cat and dog food – to be quite honest is it relevant? After-all udders, thrown away bits and pieces of this and that ALL have a nutritional value when digested. It may sound realy gross to us but - even a complete earth worm or bug eaten by our koi has bits and pieces that my sound rather gross to us – but to the fish it a tasty, nutritious morsel?

Another factor to take into account – if these gross bits and pieces were not used in pet food their cost would be much higher. In the food industry every part of an animal or plant has a use.

“Leas Cost Formulation” – this allow manufactures some flexibility when producing feeds. If a certain ingredient is in short supply they can and do substitute another available ingredient with the same nutritional values and keep the cost down.

“Personally I do not understand - "not wanting a food to be digestible - and as highly digestible as possible" - this just makes no sense... Chris perhaps you can share with us why any nutritionist would not want a food to be as digestible as possible? Surely the intention is for the animal / fish etc to be able to assimilate and absorb all the nutrients possible - thereby producing less waste?”

Correct, you want the food to be as digestible as possible. This is ell known. You also want the food to move through the gut. This is why indigestible fiber is important in the diet. NO food will be or can be 100% digestible. Take the carbohydrate portion in the diet of koi – koi can digest carbs rather well. But in reality you do not want all the carbs digested and absorbed.

“ “When you say "would you rather the fish digests more of the protein or digests more of the carbohydrates" - the fish should be able to digest ALL the nutrition in the food........ the food should be balanced and complete - after all in 90% of cases this is the only food they are eating! If there is too much carbohydrate or the food is not balanced ..... then there is a problem with the formulation.......”

No not all – a very high level. What do you mean by balanced and complete?
and What is considered too much carbohydrate?

“I also do not understand why "a large poo - is better than a small one"?

Perhaps you can help me understand this?”

Koi as with humans must have a regular gut. Humans eat a balance diet – or at least they think they do. Well actually if they did not grow and are healthy their diet would not be balanced. Yet we are continually urged on by the medical profession to eat more roughage. Roughage is indigestible matter. This irritates the bowels and ...... the unused or undigested food passes to waste. Which is better 100% of what we eat is digested and absorbed or what is needed is absorbed and the rest passed to waste.

Now with koi a large part of the ammonia waste is passed through the gills and not the kidneys like humans/animals. But there is still a need to remove the unabsorbed solid matter from the gut. So it’s better to have a large poo – i.e. a good working stomach than one which is not working very well because everything or 98% of what is pulled into the mouth as a pellet is digested and absorbed.

“Sadly you mentioned a company which to the best of my knowledge is a Dog and Cat Food manufacturer - and not a Koi Food manufacturer..... what specific studies have they done on Koi Food Nutrition? And their research and current dog and cat food has been linked to possibly causing a host of diseases and ailments in dogs and cats - something that they specialise in.........

So I am sorry if I do not have any confidence in "Dog and Cat Food" Companies, let alone any which have been linked to the death or illnesses of Cats and Dogs...”

There are very few companies that are dedicated koi food producers – very few. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a company producing a host of different feeds. The formulations are done separately and are specific to that animal. There is a great deal of knowledge around animals feeds – including fish feeds. One just has to look at the excellent results obtained over the last 50 years with koi keepers. Some of them are doing something right some of the time. Another reality check - very few pet food/koi food companies have done koi specific studies – and yet there are very good results out there. Not everyone is capable of growing and making their own koi food or cat and dog food for that matter.

In the USA there are about 75,000,000 cats and about 80,000,000 dogs kept as pets. There are over 8,000,000 households with ornamental fish Each animal and fish has to be fed every day. The vast majority are healthy and well cared for by their owners. Every now and again some idiot does something to try to make more money and our pets and sometimes our babes die. When it is discovered the authorities take action and try to clear the problem up. But because a very few animals do unfortunately die from something in the diet it can’t be held against the millions of tons of animal feed that is healthy.

If we think too much about where the steaks and lamb chops come from we will all be vegetarians.

From this point onwards in your post I agree with a lot of what you say. But how does a koi keeper tell which protein source the manufacturer has used? You simply can’t. Protein levels are given, not protein sources. Although the label should state the ingredients in order of level of inclusion. Also the label should state amino acid levels but none do. This immediately implies that we as koi keepers need to know the levels of amino acids that should be in koi food. This in turn leads to another problem. If you consult scientific sources you will find different researchers give different levels of amino acids as minimum requirements.

One last point – koi need higher levels of protein than mammals. So while 20% protein may be acceptable for a cat or a dog fish (koi) need over 30% as an absolute minimum.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Chris
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