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 Aqua Master shortage

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koicare

koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 6:19 pm

Sparks... what sparks.......?

Mnr de Villiers...... did you also spark with Oupa Neeves?

Mev de Villiers just wants to say the following:

Oupa Neeves - I am very disappointed in you! I would have thought that in your lifetime you would have learnt the 3 Cardinal Rules to a long, happy and healthy life!

If you follow these 3 simple rules you are guaranteed not only a long, happy and healthy life, you are guaranteed peace and tranquility beyond you wildest dreams.....

These 3 rules are:

1) Never argue with a Woman
2) Never argue with a Woman
and
3) NEVER argue with a Woman

Once you have learnt to master these 3 simple rules - you will find that you no longer suffer from Hypertension, Heart Burn, Migraines...you name it...they will all magically disappear.... you will live longer ....I can guarantee you this.... the chances of dying from a massive corony will also be drastically reduced......

I also run courses during the Winter (helps boost my income in the dry months) ...however you need to book early to avoid disapointment, I am always fully booked. So do not delay, sign up today!

For Women:
Course 1 - How to Nag Effectively (3 days)
Course 2 - How to Argue AFTER the Lights go out (4 days)
Course 3 - How to Justify the R25K Credit Card Account (10 days)

and for the Men:
Course 1 - How to be Totally Submissive to your Wife and still feel like the Man in the House (1 hour)
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 6:54 pm

Oh dear - oh dear ...... oh dear ....

I tried.

This is going nowhere.

Regards,
Chris
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Admin
Admin
Admin

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 8:19 pm

In conclusion, Wayne, I hope this answers your question on the shortage of Aqua Master.....

And "Oupa Chris", a big congratulations on your new grandchild ... and new forum title.

Hell, I never knew I needed a Phd in nitrition before feeding my koi and dogs.

Thanks for all the inputs. Quite interesting.

PS! Men are from Mars, woman are from Venus.... and Koi from the Far East.

_________________
Paul Viljoen
E Mail: koi@absamail.co.za ; http://www.koionline.co.za

Koi are not my whole life but make my life whole
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wayneb

wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 8:25 pm

Admin wrote:
In conclusion, Wayne, I hope this answers your question on the shortage of Aqua Master.....

Lets hope that we never have a shortage again lol!...And if we ever again do have a shortage ill be to scared to say anything about it. Very Happy


Quote :
Hell, I never knew I needed a Phd in nitrition before feeding my koi and dogs.

I think if nothing else was gained from dicussion atleast the koi community on KoiOnline have been given a special insight into the diffirent aspects of koi,dog and cat nutrition. Thank you very much Julie & Chris.
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 9:58 pm

Hi,

What is really strange is that koicare has cut and pasted hundreds of references about cats and dogs, hundreds of cut and pastes about what is not wanted in pet food but we still have not heard what she wants in a koi food - in her own words. And if her formulation will work and the bottom line - if the mix will provide the nutritional needs of koi.

Its a pity as this could have developed into an interesting debate.

And yes, thanks Dennis for supplying Wayne with his Aqua Master and bringing relief to the Great Aqua Master Shortage of 2009. You must not let this happen again please. <grin>.

Regards,
Chris
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bobby

bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed Apr 29, 2009 10:32 pm

Chris Neaves" Nov28,2008 wrote:
We use a quality fish meal from Namibia as our protein source in Shogun. We have a vitamin premix from Roche in Switzerland – I like high levels of vitamin C, E and a (and good levels of all the other vitamins and minerals). I am fanatical about fresh food and Shogun is made every 4 – 6 weeks in small batches of 6 – 8 tons.

Chris Neaves" APR27,2009 wrote:
So corn gluten has -
Crude protein – 60% min
Crude fat – 1% min
Crude fibre – 3% max
Digestible protein – 98%

This is a high protein additive for animal feeds. It is also much cheaper than animal protein sources. So why not use it?

Chris Neaves" Apr26,2009 wrote:
"But how does a koi keeper tell which protein source the manufacturer has used? You simply can’t. Protein levels are given, not protein sources."


Hi Chris, Has the formula of shogun stayed the same or are we now using corn gluten?
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koicare

koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 5:34 am

Sorry Chris - I actually got the impression that you were unwilling to go further.

You made various statements like "reinventing the wheel...and not being able to make everyone happy....." so I did not pursue.

There are more than enough Koi foods out there - ie: that do not use maize in their products.... and have had sucess and good health.

The reference in my last posting to dogs and cats was simply as you remarked that if everyone believes what is on the internet then there would be 1000's of dogs and cats dying..... I have all the evidence...I even have all the research papers.....

Do your homework!
At the end of the day all the information is there for you to check out and form an opinion...........

My opinion is quiet simple - maize etc is not meant meant for dogs, cats and fish - I have given you everything you need.... as the one company said - who manufacturers fish feed - it is good for cattle, pigs etc....

I did not even get into the Gentically Modifed side on Maize etc.

So this is my opinion, from all the research I have done..... you decide!
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 9:14 am

Hi Bobby,
Just stirring here a little with corn gluten to see if we could get some relevant information.

Shogun has not changed since 1995. No actually it did change a little. When we first started we had a very small amount of meat and bone meal to pick up certain nutrients and minerals. This was imported from the UK. In about 2000 I wanted to export Shogun to the UK but discovered that they would not allow feeds into the country with meat and bone meal. Buggers. They export to us but would not allow their own products back in to their country!

I removed the half percent of meat and bone meal and replaced it with fish meal. So yes, Shogun has developed a little. There are also one or two other very minor improvements to the overall formulation.

I use a good quality fish meal as Shogun's main protein source.

Corn Gluten has nutritional values - just look at the chemical analysis - 60% protein. Would I use it in Shogun. No. It is a good protein source but does not have the amino acid levels and profile I look for and more importantly what koi actually need.

As you so correctly said in a previous posting a few pages back - not all protein sources are equal. It takes a lot more than just wanting an ingredient in a koi food because it is nice to have or it looks good. On the protein part of the formula you are seeking the correct amino acids, the correct level of amino acids, the correct balance of amino acids i.e. the synergy between them and of course, the digestibility or availability of the amino acid profile to the fish.

I am also extremely fearful of corn gluten - especially imported from the East. This was the source of melamine spiking to falsify the lab tests on the quality control. The corn gluten used in cat and dog food caused havoc in the pet food industry here and in America.

If its any consolidation I recall reading that a few of the company CEO's behind the melamine scandal have been put to death in China and a few other have received very lengthy jail sentences.

One last thing - I wonder if there is another manufacture of koi food any where who would be so open about these things? But if it leads to a better understanding of our hobby so be it. The same goes with filtration. So perhaps if you want to know more you are welcome to email me directly. Always good fun and always interesting this hobby of ours.

Hope this helps,
Kind regards,
Chris
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koicare

koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 6:05 pm

Hi Chris

Can you help me understand this a little better...

QUOTE:
Take the carbohydrate portion in the diet of koi – koi can digest carbs rather well. But in reality you do not want all the carbs digested and absorbed.


http://www.pondsmagazine.com/ponds-inside-issue/koi-food-411.aspx
“Carbohydrates help a koi’s body process the nutrients from its food. They also provide a small amount of energy, but koi do not use them very efficiently. Carbohydrates should make up about 30 percent of a koi’s diet, Neaves said.”


Here you said that Koi do not use carbs very efficiently? So if I understand you correctly - youa re bascially saying that Yes, they digest them, but then they can not really use them?

So am I safe to assume that any koi food which lists maize, corn, etc as a first ingredients is a bad food?
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 7:48 pm

“A woman’s guess is much more accurate than a man’s certainty.”

Rudyard Kipling (1865 – 1936)
English novelist and Nobel Prize Winner
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 8:05 pm

Dear koicare -
For the sake of a debate -

1) If you have a pathological dislike for corn/maize what would you use as an alternative?
2) What would you use as a protein source in a fish food?
3) What would you use as a preservative?
4) Where would the energy portion of the formulation come from?
5) In your previous posting you mention "any koi food that lists maize/corn etc" what is the etc?
6) What do you consider a bad koi food?
7) What level of amino acids would you hope to achieve in the ideal koi food?
Cool In an earlier posting you mentioned the one food you trusted was Hikari - why?
9) What would you use or recommend as a carbohydrate source in a koi food?

Chris

P.S. I did not place the face at number 8 and I can't remove it .........
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koicare

koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 30, 2009 10:16 pm

Dear Chris

I am actually starting to wonder why you are so defensive on the CORN / MAIZE issue...

Firstly I would not bother to re-invent the wheel - there is more than enough koi foods in the market and currently available in South Africa, which quiet simply do not utilise ingredients like Maize! And yes, I read all the labels from all the different manufacturers as some will have ingredients within the same umbrella that I choose not to use!

This is not about me formulating a koi food...... this is about me choosing not to use foods containing certain ingredients ... I seriously doubt that a Fish Food Formulator would even state that Corn is not meant for fish and should only be used in foods for cattle, pigs etc - if this fact was not true.

As you well know many food manufacturers can falsely state that their protein content is 40% - but if 15% of that protein is actually derived from corn..... leaving only 25% from fish meal............ and we all know and you agree that......fish do not utilise carbs very well......well then what is the point....

"Fish do not use carbohydrates very efficiently, and in quality feeds their use is primarily as a binding agent during the manufacturing process. Without some grain the food would simply not hold together. Due to the fact that carbohydrates can be used as a rather inexpensive source of energy in fish foods, some foods utilize a high amount of grains in their formulas to reduce feed costs. The logic is, if it's cheaper, then why not?

Grains do have their place in fish foods, serving as binders and to help synthesize lipids and protein. However, if excessive amounts are used, those excess amounts can get stored as fat and also will increase the total amount of undigested solid waste being expelled by the fish. This leads to unwanted pollution.

Carbohydrates form a source of energy for koi but fish metabolize them less readily than omnivorous birds or mammals. Too much carbohydrate is very bad for koi health, resulting in either degeneration of the liver or an excessive storage of these substances as glycogen, leading ultimately to heart failure."

Are you seriously trying to say that everyone who is against the use of Maize or Corn is wrong?

PondDoc.com
"Read the contents of many of the koi and goldfish foods out there on the market and you will find corn fillers are one of the top three ingredients. With the exception of corn gluten, all corn meals, etc. are mixed in the food to make it "go further" - kind of like what Mom used to do with the Hamburger meat. The corn fillers will not harm your koi - they just don't help them. In fact -- those fillers are not digested and become "fish poo" adding more trash to your pond water and load to your filter.
A good food for your pond fish should list fish or other seafood meal as the first ingredient unless it is a wheatgerm food. If wheatgerm or wheat flour is listed first it should be followed by fish meal. Definitely avoid foods that list ground corn as one its first 4 ingredients."


"The ingredients listed on a food label are your first clue as to the quality of the food's protein content. Avoid those that contain too much grain such as wheat middlings, corn, brans, flour, potatoes, or protein derived from Soybean meal. (As indicated by the first ingredients listed; the ingredients that are listed first are the most prevalent ingredients). Look instead for foods with high-quality, marine-based proteins such as whole Herring, Krill, Mussel, and Squid at the top of their ingredient lists."

"You should feed a fresh high quality manufactured fish food as your fish’s basic diet. Koi and goldfish need the same types of nutrients as we do. That is, they need carbohydrates, fats, protein, vitamins and minerals. Fish digest carbohydrates at a lower rate than we do and should receive very little fat. Koi & Goldfish do very poorly on fish food based on corn. Since corn is cheap some pond fish foods or catfish foods use it as the main ingredient. Avoid food that lists corn as one of the top four ingredients. Wheat and Wheat Germ is a much better main ingredient for koi and Goldfish. Good foods will have about 32%-36% protein based on wheat germ, fish meal and/or shrimp/krill meal, seaweed (spirulina) soybean meal, assorted cereals and added vitamins. Fat should be 6% or less."

And yes again I post all sorts of information from the internet... because yes, I do my research, I like to learn from other peoples mistakes and other peoples knowledge - and no I do not just go with the first thing that comes up - but when the vast majority are telling you all the same thing over and over again - ie: to avoid foods which contain Maize.... or at the very least avoid them where they fall into the first 4 or 5 ingredients - then I stay clear.... I do not think it is a conspiracy against Maize...... and no I do not think that the people making these statements are idiots.....

So a good question right now is when you say that your food is 40% protein - what % of that is from fish meal and what % of that is maize?
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri May 01, 2009 3:16 pm

Hi koicare,

This reply is split into two sections as I received a message that this posting is too big for a single reply. I think I deserve a prize for that.

PART 1

I don’t think I am explaining myself very well – it must be all the hearsay, facts and figures on dog food that are confusing me.

So here’s trying again –

Your quote -
“I am actually starting to wonder why you are so defensive on the CORN / MAIZE issue...”

Corn/Maize is but one carbohydrate source. Just as I defended or moved around corn gluten playing devil’s advocate, so to I am doing the same with maize. If you do not want a maize carbohydrate source in a koi food which other carbohydrate source would you like? Let’s start there. Secondly there have to better, valid reasons why you dislike corn.

When you have decided which carbohydrate source you would like – as we know what you do not like - then let’s have a look at both corn and the other carbohydrate source or sources back to back, get their chemical analysis and the energy yield from both. We will then be able to see is there is much of a difference and if there is actually such a passionate case against maize/corn.

Next what inclusion rate would you like of a carbohydrate source in a koi food? Or what level of carbohydrates have you researched that should be included?

The next quote -

“This is not about me formulating a koi food...... this is about me choosing not to use foods containing certain ingredients”

Oh, but it is – it about you giving us a chance to have a look at what you like or want in a koi food. After all the negative statements you must give a few of the other nutrients a chance. There are many thousands of nutrient sources available for animal and fish feeds.

Next Quote -

“As you well know many food manufacturers can falsely state that their protein content is 40% - but if 15% of that protein is actually derived from corn..... leaving only 25% from fish meal............ and we all know and you agree that......fish do not utilise carbs very well......well then what is the point....”

Firstly, it doesn’t quite work like that. Secondly, why choose 40% protein? Shogun has a 40% protein and so do some of Hikari Foods. Are you implying that these are false claims by Shogun and Hikari?

Yes, I agree with you completely on the first part but ... are you saying that corn HAS nutritional value? "15% protein from corn"? So if it has a nutritional value it can be used? For the sake of debate ... there are many koi foods that use a combination of protein sources to get to specific levels of amino acids – nothing wrong with that.
Secondly, corn is but one of many different carbohydrates that can be used and it does have some protein (which is why you can strip away the starch and get corn gluten with 60% protein). Maize/ Corn has around 7 – 8% protein which is why it can be used as a stable food for humans.

Further, for the sake of the debate – what would be wrong with proteins in corn? Or proteins in wheat germ for that matter or protein in any carbohydrate for that matter. Does corn have different proteins that it is such a big no-no?

PART TWO FOLLOWS


Last edited by Chris Neaves on Fri May 01, 2009 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: PART TWO   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeFri May 01, 2009 3:17 pm

PART TWO -

Next quote -

"Fish do not use carbohydrates very efficiently, and in quality feeds their use is primarily as a binding agent during the manufacturing process. Without some grain the food would simply not hold together. Due to the fact that carbohydrates can be used as a rather inexpensive source of energy in fish foods, some foods utilize a high amount of grains in their formulas to reduce feed costs. The logic is, if it's cheaper, then why not?

Yes I agree, the carbohydrate portion of the formula is used to bind the nutrients and deliver them to the gut of the fish in an aquatic environment. Nothing wrong with that. If you do not use carbohydrate then you will have to bind the nutrients with artificial binders. You can get pellets to stick together so that they will not absorb water. What is not stated in the above quote is that fish must have some carbohydrate. Now we can bring the debate around and ask about which carbohydrate to use and how much to use.

You are absolute correct with the inexpensive source of energy – carbohydrate is a relatively inexpensive source of energy. Actually it used to be cheap, but not anymore, just look at the bulk prices of maize, wheat, wheatgerm etc. So it is relatively inexpensive when compared to fish meals etc. Experimental fish diets without any carbohydrate produced lower growth rates. It was found that carbohydrate is necessary in fish diets. Not just a cheap binder.

Protein can be used as an energy source. Yes, the fishes body prefers protein for energy – but protein is the most expensive part of a fish feed formula. Why not add some carbohydrate for energy and spare the protein for growth and cell replacement? You can then lower the protein content and reduce the costs.

Costs are a major factor in koi foods as people demand high quality ingredients, are not prepared to pay for them and in reality do not always get them.

Next quote -

“Grains do have their place in fish foods, serving as binders and to help synthesize lipids and protein. However, if excessive amounts are used, those excess amounts can get stored as fat and also will increase the total amount of undigested solid waste being expelled by the fish. This leads to unwanted pollution.”

There you have it – “grains have their place in fish foods” – exactly and thats what they do. And yes – if used in excessive amounts this is stored as fat. But corn is a grain – so it has a place in fish foods? And once the enzymes in the stomach digest ALL grains sorry ANY grains then you get the same molecules.

The same with protein. It does not matter whether the proteins are of animal or plant origins - once the proteins are digested they release the amino acids. It is the amino acids which the body can absorb and not the protein.

Next quote -

“Carbohydrates form a source of energy for koi but fish metabolize them less readily than omnivorous birds or mammals. Too much carbohydrate is very bad for koi health, resulting in either degeneration of the liver or an excessive storage of these substances as glycogen, leading ultimately to heart failure."

I agree – but koi being a coloured carp can metabolize carbohydrate better than other fish species by the way.

Again we have been quoting general statements and leaping to conclusions - what is an excessive amount of carbs? “Too much carbohydrate is very bad for koi health” – I agree whole heartedly – but it does not say too much corn is very bad for koi health” - it says too much carbohydrate. We need to establish what is too much and find out what these people are trying to say.

Next quote -

“Are you seriously trying to say that everyone who is against the use of Maize or Corn is wrong?”

Yes – until they can give valid reasons. Give us a valid reason why this specific carbohydrate is so very bad for fish and not the others. Think of the quotes in other posting about corn gluten. Just as people may be against corn gluten and have stated there is no nutritional value to this protein source. Corn gluten has nutritional values and stating that there is no nutrition in corn gluten is incorrect.

Give us a valid reason why corn is not an acceptable carbohydrate source. Yes - I agree with you on yellow maize in a koi food by the way.

Next part of a quote –

“A good food for your pond fish should list fish or other seafood meal as the first ingredient unless it is a wheatgerm food. If wheatgerm or wheat flour is listed first it should be followed by fish meal. Definitely avoid foods that list ground corn as one its first 4 ingredients."

Question – what is the difference between wheat flour and corn? Also do they realize the implications of the above statement - having wheatgerm or wheat flour followed by fish meal? If they are listing their ingredients in order of inclusion rate this means they are open about it and there are more carbohydrates in the food than protein. What would you rather have - more protein or more carbohydrate in your koi food?

This goes directly against what was quoted – correctly – in the previous quote about excess carbs. You can’t have excess carbs being bad in one quote to carbs being the main ingredient and being acceptable in the next.

As for wheat germ – a good source of nutrition – but it is a plant protein that’s deficient in certain amino acids needed for koi. Wheat germ can be a part of the formulation. Wheat germ is also a carbohydrate source – so what the difference between wheat germ, corn and wheat? Wheat germ has more protein than maize and wheat but it is still a carbohydrate. Wheat germ has about 15% starch, 16 – 17% sugars, 15% sucrose, 14% fiber and about 29% protein (which cannot match the amino acid profile needed by koi). Remember that's 29% in its raw state. It also has some vitamins, minerals and is high in oils. Further wheatgerm yields about 1400kJ of energy – and that’s very close to wheat and ......... corn. Wheat germ as binder mmmm ... I don’t know – yes carbohydrates are used as binders – but not that keen on wheat germ because, from a practical point of view, wheat and corn bind the nutrients far better than wheatgerm meal.

Next quote – or part of a quote ..

"The ingredients listed on a food label are your first clue as to the quality of the food's protein content.”

Disagree with this – you cannot get the quality of ingredients off a food label. You can get a claimed protein level. Just read Bobby’s posting about different proteins. And who’s to say the protein source is not corn gluten? You can easily have a label with 35% protein which lists fishmeal, corn gluten, meat and bone meal, blood meal as protein sources and you will not have the faintest idea what the proportions or inclusion rates are of each. You can even be clever and include squid, shrimp, crab (all very, very expensive) as protein sources for example. All you do is place a quarter percent of these ingredients in your formula to make it affordable and you can list the ingredients on the packet together with your other protein sources.

The packet label lists the total protein content. You could quite easily have feather meal as a protein source and have a good protein level on the packet. Manufactures hold their formulations close to their chests.

Next part of a quote –

“Avoid those that contain too much grain such as wheat middlings, corn, brans, flour, potatoes, or protein derived from Soybean meal. (As indicated by the first ingredients listed; the ingredients that are listed first are the most prevalent ingredients). Look instead for foods with high-quality, marine-based proteins such as whole Herring, Krill, Mussel, and Squid at the top of their ingredient lists."

This is exactly what I am saying - avoid too much GRAIN - not too much corn.

Ingredients should be listed according to their quantities – yes – but many koi foods do not. Analysis of some koi foods has demonstrated around 16% protein and 60% carbohydrate. So if this carbohydrate source in this food was wheat it would be acceptable but if it was corn it would not be acceptable?

Soyabean meal – this is another myth and I don’t know why it has arisen. There is a worldwide fish meal shortage. Fish meal is getting expensive and the shortage is getting worse. Many researchers are seeking alternative protein sources as substitutes for fish meal. It has been found that soya bean meal is, so far, the best protein source substitute for fish meal in fish feeds. It was also found that you can substitute some of the fish meal with soya bean meal but only down to a certain point. From there on growth becomes compromised. Wheat germ is also a plant protein source. So is corn with 8% protein. (head for the hills lads!) Some American koi breeders have not even heard of having fish meal in koi foods.

Next quote –

"You should feed a fresh high quality manufactured fish food as your fish’s basic diet. Koi and goldfish need the same types of nutrients as we do. That is, they need carbohydrates, fats, protein, vitamins and minerals.”

Yes – exactly but keep one thing in mind about imported koi foods – by the time they are manufactured, packaged, stored, shipped etc they are about 6 months old when they get on our shelves. Many dealers will dispute this but it is a fact. Some koi foods from the east, where vast amounts of cheap fish foods are made, may even be older. They produce tons and tons to keep the machines rolling and then store them. It is cheaper to run a machine continuously for three months than to stop/start it every few months. It is also more cost effective to bring a container of food in to the country once or twice a year. Your better koi foods have overcome this time lag.

Next quote -

“Fish digest carbohydrates at a lower rate than we do and should receive very little fat.”

Yes and no. Again – what is “very little fat”? This is a very board statement and needs clarifying. Yes to the carbohydrate part of the quote but the fat or lipid content of fish food is kept low to prolong shelf life and not because fish “should receive very little fat”. Also low fats reduce the need for antioxidants and thus contribute to the lowering of the costs. There is a direct relationship between lipid content and koi growth right up to about 12% lipids. A minimum of about 4% lipid is good in a koi diet – a little higher is better. Have a look at the Hikari Hi-growth pellets lipid content. Also the source of the fat or lipid is important. Oils from chicken meal = bad. Oils from marine oils and fish = good.

Next quote:

“Koi & Goldfish do very poorly on fish food based on corn. Since corn is cheap some pond fish foods or catfish foods use it as the main ingredient. Avoid food that lists corn as one of the top four ingredients. Wheat and Wheat Germ is a much better main ingredient for koi and Goldfish.”

I think this may well be the root of this discussion and why it is going around in circles - reading things into statements which are not there. Yes, I agree – koi and gold fish will do very poorly on fish food BASED on corn and where corn is the MAIN ingredient – I agree. But why is wheat or even wheat germ a better carbohydrate MAIN INGREDIENT? NO CARBOHYDRATE IS BETTER OR GOOD AS A MAIN INGREDIENT. Remember the statement above on excess carbs being stored as fat.

But the point here is that no specific level for corn is given. This means you can interpret this any way you want. You should not read into this that ANY koi food with ANY amount of corn is not good for fish. If you substituted wheat for corn and said – Koi and Goldfish do very poorly on fish food based on wheat – what conclusion would be drawn? Should all koi and golfidh foods containing wheat then be avoided?

When corn, wheat, wheat germ or any carbohydrate is used as the main ingredient – avoid the food, yes. This is not in contention. It also does not mean if there is SOME corn, or SOME wheat or SOME carbohydrate source in a koi food it is BAD. Everyone has stated there will be some grains in fish foods and that grains are an essential part of the diet of fish.

Corn, wheat germ and wheat are all carbohydrate sources. Some may have more protein, such as wheat germ, some may have a little more of this or that. The bottom line is they are starches and yield more or less the same energy. Some bind the food better than others.

Bottom line and the reality here is that you will always find that protein sources and carbohydrate sources in the TOP FOUR ingredients of ALL koi foods. Yes even the most expensive “best” koi foods in the world. These are the two main ingredients in ALL koi food formulas. There is always going to be a ratio between the protein and the carbohydrate. You may have a blend of three different carbohydrate sources but it is still carbohydrate. You may have a blend of protein sources but again, it is still protein.

And to continue to play devil’s advocate – and what I have been trying to get to – what valid reasons are there for using one carbohydrate source above another? What level of carbohydrates (any source) would be acceptable in a koi food?

Last quote –

“So a good question right now is when you say that your food is 40% protein - what % of that is from fish meal and what % of that is maize?”

You are now getting personal about my formulation. I do not divulge the intricacies of Shogun in public just as Hikari, Tetra and Aqua Master would not.

I am amazed – this actually implies there is some nutritional value in maize!

My formulation is private – it works like a dream. Go and ask Hikari, Aqua Master and Tetra the same question and see the response you get. Shogun was based on a very reputable Japanese koi food and our own research.

The carbohydrate inclusion rate – i.e. energy yield of – of the reputable Japanese koi food and Shogun are almost identical as is the amino acid profile. This is not my claim it is proven in chemical analysis from an independent lab.

I trust this clarifies things.

Kind regards,
Chris
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 5:27 pm

I thought i would post a section of the happy koi news letter here as this is where the discussion started. The section in the happy koi newsletter can therefor be seen as a repley to the forum. The whole news letter can be found here.

Quote :
2. Food and Koi
We recently posted on an online forum a few of our thoughts about Koi food. The trouble is that no-one sees Koi as a journey – in this day and age it would appear as if Koi are seen as a destination!

If you are of the sad opinion that Koi are a destination, let us hasten to bring you up to speed in the nuances of this hobby. Anyone who has been in Koi for longer than 5 years would just chortle behind your back – and point fingers whilst driving past your residence…

We on the other hand have no hesitation in pointing out your folly. Koi keeping is a journey – a marvellous engaging journey to be sure, but it is never, ever, something as simple as a destination.

In light of that feeding your Koi into their best possible condition cannot be achieved by chucking one bag of Hikari at them every now and then. Healthy Koi from which you are extracting the best possible results from their genetic potential (please re-read that!) do not achieve superlative body shapes, lustre, defined colours and patterns overnight! It does not happen!

Koi are 'developed' over many years. From the humble pond muppets to the Show Champions, Koi development is a slow process that should not be rushed. Your Koi will be what they will be depending on your consistency and your skill in raising them over the years.
Hence, as much as we'd love you to, feeding a diet like Saki Hikari is not an occasional thing. In fact, mixing food is not going to give you results the likes of which have produced the last six Grand Champions at the All Japan Show... In a row...

Your choice of food will make a massive difference to your Koi in the long run. It is fully 80% of what you can do to extract the best from your Koi, assuming that all of you reading this have your water quality issues running at 110%!

Remember that the most expensive Koi is a dead Koi. Your “investment” sinks to zero. Healthy Koi fed something like Saki Hikari are more disease resistant. Their water is healthier thanks to the almost negligible wastes produced by the Koi from this food. Koi are healthier because their diet ensures they have no nutrient deficiencies stemming from a poorly formulated Koi 'food'. Make no mistake there are expensive Koi foods out there that can't deliver in this respect alone!

Cheap Koi foods are to be avoided like the plague. If they come in a yellow and purple pellet with green flecks and red spots in it – beware! The chances are you're buying sawdust and glue. And please, don't fall for the ingredients list printed on the side of the box or bag! Give us 10 minutes and we'll generate you a label… These things are NOT legislated in South Africa – so we'd treat such labels with caution mixed with a healthy dose of well placed scepticism…

If you buy rubbish and feed it to your Koi the results are there for everyone including yourself to see and it makes NO sense to us whatsoever to spend money on your Koi and then more on running a pond only to compromise your Koi by feeding them rubbish!
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 5:46 pm

Wayne,

Are you sure the food you received from Dennis is the real McCoy? Aqua Master?
I am asking this, because I send my Son to their outlet, for some Eel Pellets, and he came back with some Eel pellets in a Green Aqua Master packaging! They did not have normal plastic bags.

Another question; If this food is imported, why is Sandton Aquatic in possession of the packaging?

PS. I stop to feed Shogun; it causes my Koi to develop “chicken breasts” Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 6:03 pm

Hi Pieter

Sandton Aquatics imports Aqua Master in 20kg bags and then repackage it in 1kg and 5kg.

I buy the Large growth pellet so i know its not eel pellets. I am currently feeding a mixture of foods including eel pellets thanks to the shortage. I am feeding a mixture of the following at the momment:

Aqua Master
Shogun
Eel Pellets
Rinukai
Silkworm papae
Prawns
Shrimps

I mix it with olive oil + garlic and then seal it with honey. I also add a calsium and Vitimen B12 suppliment.

Im busy putting a document together about kois foods. Im including an image of the packet the nutritional percentages and the ingredients but as we all know you can not always trust the label.

Wayne


Last edited by wayneb on Wed May 06, 2009 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 10:18 am

Wayne,

re: Aqua Master

So this food could be very “old” by the time you feed it to your Koi?

Manufacturing - Transfer abroad > one month?
Importation > one month?
Store at Sandton Aquatic’s before packaging > two month?
Distribution of food > two weeks?
At the Koi Dealer before the food is sold > any time between 1- 3 months?

Is the food being re-packet by hand or by machine?
Is it transfer direct from the 20kg to the smaller bags?

So, how could you guarantee the quality of the food?
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:03 am

You playing Devils Advocate is see. scratch

Imported food will be older than local made food but what you are buying is superior ingredients.

If you compare Aqua Masters Growth ingredients to Aqua Nutro High Protein you will see that Aqua Masters primary 3 ingredients are fish & protein based. Premium Fish meal, Shrimp meal, Krill meal towards the end of the ingredients you will even see Squid liver....no maize.

now look at Aqua Nutro - Wheat, Fish meal, Yellow maize, Canola, Soybeans, Lysine, Methionine, Alfalfa, Rooibos, Lime, Sodium chloride, Vitamins, Minerals, Emulsifier, Natural antioxidants, Immune stimulant, Prebiotics, Palatability enhancer, Colourants, Spirulina. So their only protein ingredients are Fish meal (2nd on list) and Yellow maize.

Aqua Master is an international product which must therefor adhere to standards and policies of different countries...So i will trust the label on their packaging more than the label thats on a local product that does not need to adhere to any legaislation.

So yes, imported foods have a longer shelf life but the ingredients are superior.

I buy 20kg at a time. So i guess and hope it helps with the fresh ness.


Last edited by wayneb on Wed May 06, 2009 11:25 am; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:07 am

Wayne
Should you feed that mix in one go, do you have a Vet on stanby? lol! affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:11 am

Bobby wrote:
Wayne
Should you feed that mix in one go, do you have a Vet on stanby? lol! affraid

Haha, i ofcourse do not feed all those things at the same time and i do not always add the additives... What a Face but its quite a mix...my fish do not seem to like the prawns that much.
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:42 am

Wayne,

What would you rather eat? A fresh second grade apple or a first grade apple that became rotten?

It looks like your believe is based; regarding Koi food mentioned on the label of ingredients by the food manufacture.

You also mentioned:
Quote :
So yes, imported foods have a longer shelf life but the ingredients are superior.

That's BULL SHIT!
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:57 am

Wayne, by adding all those supplements, you unbalance an otherwise totally balanced diet.

I only feed Aquanutro, a perfectly balanced diet, extremely affordable and on par with some of the best International foods. It is always fresh as they produce on a monthly basis, and their main ingredient is fishmeal, and not maize as Wayne in his unedited post suggested. I believe the quality of their fishmeal is on par with the best International foods.

I can almost smell the fishmeal from the Aquanutro factory from my farm 15 km away.lol!

Most imported foods have much less Vitamins, as koi food loose their vitamins on their way here, and through the whole distributing cycle which may take months.

_________________
Paul Viljoen
E Mail: koi@absamail.co.za ; http://www.koionline.co.za

Koi are not my whole life but make my life whole


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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 12:00 pm

Quote :
What would you rather eat? A fresh second grade apple or a first grade apple that became rotten?

But the one is a rotten apple and the other fresh dirt - you cant compare.

Quote :
That's BULL SHIT!

Yah, yah...keep on fooling yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Aqua Master shortage   Aqua Master shortage - Page 3 Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 12:07 pm

Quote :
I only feed Aquanutro, a perfectly balanced diet, extremely affordable and on par with some of the best International foods.

Balanced?, hahahahahahahaha.......if you want to believe that - go ahead.... lol!

Mielies are better for koi that fish, skrimp and kriel meal...hmmm.... lol!


Quote :
Wayne, by adding all those supplements, you unbalance an otherwise totally balanced diet.

I am following advice from the some of the best koi keepers from koi-bito and malaysia. So far my koi are doing very well, i just have to look at their skin and body quality...propably genetics kicking in but im sure the food also have to do with it.

Olive oil and Garlic is good to bring out the skin luster and to keep parasites away.
Honey contains propolis that is good for cleansing and to bring the white out.

Vit B12 is used to give the kois appatite - so they eat more and therefor grow quicker.

Clasium suppliment is used in conjunction with Vitemin B12 to help build stronger bone structure to prevent deformaties caused due to the ingreased growth rate.

Just to draw a comparison on what we are told by food manufacturers - look at this:

Quote :
Margarine was originally manufactured to fatten turkeys. When it killed the turkeys, the people who had put all the money into the research wanted a payback so they put their heads together to figure out what to do with this product to get their money back. It was a white substance with no food appeal so they added the yellow coloring and sold it to people to use in place of butter. How do you like it? They have come out with some clever new flavorings . DO YOU KNOW.. the difference between margarine and butter? Read on to the end...gets very interesting! Both have the same amount of calories. Butter is slightly higher in saturated fats at 8 grams compared to 5 grams. Eating margarine can increase heart disease in women by 53% over eating the same amount of butter, according to a recent Harvard Medical Study. Eating butter increases the absorption of many other nutrients in other foods. Butter has many nutritional benefits where margarine has a few only because they are added! Butter tastes much better than margarine and it can enhance the flavors of other foods. Butter has been around for centuries where margarine has been around for less than 100 years. And now, for MARGERINE.. Very high in trans fatty acids. Triple risk of coronary heart disease. Increases total cholesterol and LDL (this is the bad cholesterol) and lowers HDL cholesterol, (the good cholesterol) Increases the risk of cancers up to five fold. Lowers quality of breast milk. Decreases immune response. Decreases insulin response. And here's the most disturbing fact.... HERE IS THE PART THAT IS VERY INTERESTING! Margarine is but ONE MOLECULE away from being PLASTIC.


This fact alone was enough to have me avoiding margarine for life and anything else that is hydrogenated (this means hydrogen is added, changing the molecular structure of the substance). You can try this yourself: Purchase a tub of margarine and leave it in your garage or shaded area. Within a couple of days you will note a couple of things:

* no flies, not even those pesky fruit flies will go near it (that should tell you something)

* it does not rot or smell differently because it has no nutritional value; nothing will grow on it. Even those teeny weenie micro-organisms will not a find a home to grow. Why? Because it is nearly plastic. Would you melt your Tupperware and spread that on your toast? Share This With Your Friends.....(If you want to "butter them up")!
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