Some people say that in SA we only need to feed High Protein and not need bother with wheatgerm. Is this true? Is wheatgerm just for the European markets?

In winter i tend to mix some wheatgerm in with the high protein but in summer it is high protein all the way

I'm Guessing it has to do with diffrence in climate in European Country's and in SA. In England for example winter will freeze over the ponds there where our water will be considerably warmer. I have asked a few ppl that I know that have been keeping koi allot longer than me and they dont bother with changing diet over winter although I have heard the term winter obisity and I dont know if that relates to overfeeding or feeding High Protein in winter.

I'm acually very interested in hearing more opinions or Facts on the matter. Myself I am feeding High Protein over winter but have cut down on how many times a day they are fed aswell as the daily rations.

I only feed one type all year.
Just adjust the quantities you feed with the seasons.

So why do companies bother selling weatgerm here? It actually gets difficult for me to get my brand of food in High protein during winter as it is just weatgerm and staple everywhere.

If we as humans get too many proteins, our system will discard it. That surely goes for Koi too.

Because a Koi can not store the high protein in high protein foods, and it can not be used for growth, it will discard it.

This will cause high protein waste that will pollute the water and it will have a negative effect on your biofilters. Remember, your bio filter is not very effective during winter and protein are the culprits when it comes to producing ammonia.

I believe this might cause health problems due to increased ammonia.

I also believe protein might remain in the intestines for much longer, and cause problems.

It is also a waste of money. High protein foods are 30% more expensive and the koi are going to discard most of it anyway.

On the other hand, if you stop feeding, you negatively affect the immune system of the fish.

Winter feeds contain Wheatgerm, which also contains protein, but being plant protein, it is highly digestable. It also contains a very balanced group of Vitamins required to keep the immune system up and running during winter. Winter feeds also contain peas and other plant protein and vitamins that is highly digestible.

The increased amino acids in winter food/wheatgerm are also vital to the koi during winter, when feeding is limited.

I personally mix maintenance food and winter formula during winter, and feed only once a day. No high protein.

The idea of high protein food always bothered me in general...I assume that the koi foods are roughly formulated according to what carp would eat in nature?...Where would they get 40% protein for their diet? Thats a lot of worms to find...But i can say the same about weatgerm..does the menu change for carp in nature during winter? I am sure they eat less but wont they eat roughly the same food during the year?

We need to get chris neaves involved on this topic.

wayneb wrote:

.does the menu change for carp in nature during winter? I am sure they eat less but wont eat roughly the same food during the year?

We need to get chris neaves involved on this topic.

In summer, there are much more high protein foods available in nature. Bloodworms, Mosquitos and daphnia(up to 40% protein) are in abundance. Not in winter.

I am sure they eat much more plants in winter.

When I am in doubt, I look at how the Japanese do it. They switch to Wheat germ food during winter.

A lot of food suppliers don't have wheat germ products and therefore tells us that it is not necessary.

Just something to keep in mind aswell is that our winter water tempretures are roughly the same tempreture of European summers. On the koi DVD's they speak about 20 C in summer...My Koi pond still sit at 19 C while during summer it climbs upto maybe as high as 26 C / 27 C.

The European water tempretures fall below 10 and in Japan it snows during winter so i can understand feeding something different but is it really necessary in South Africa? The tempreture yesterday was 22C and it felt cold to us but the europeans would have gone to the beach with their families on a day like that.

When i was in the Manchester, UK a couple of years ago their winter tempreture was roughly between -3 and 6 C almost every day. They one day the temp went over 10 and the people where wearing shorts and the band was playing the park, i was of course still freezing my butt off and did not dair to take my jacket of.

So i dont think we can compare ourself to Europe or Japan.

I agree with Wayne.
If there were high protein food available in mud ponds during Winter do you suggest the koi would not eat it?
I believe earthworms are about 70% protein, but easily digestible.

The principle should be applied according to the temperature, not the location.

If the temperature is below 15, you should start to apply the principle.

The only difference is that when you are in South Africa, you don't have to apply the principle as long as in other countries.

The water temperature around here goes below 15 quite often. Remember, you live in Cape Town. In Gauteng, the principle will apply for at least four months.

Jaco wrote:

I agree with Wayne.
If there were high protein food available in mud ponds during Winter do you suggest the koi would not eat it?
I believe earthworms are about 70% protein, but easily digestible.

It will eat only as much as required (which is much less due to the low tempreature) and discard the rest. Pollution will not be a problem like in an unnatural pond.

That is what I meant by reduce the quantity fed during Winter.
My ponds never go below 12c during Winter.
Last time I had ulcers was in 2000.

Hi all,

Let me start to say “Koi will only eat what they need”

The lower the temperature of the water the slower their metabolism will function and its ability to process food. The temperature and behavior of your Koi will dictate what and how much you’re Koi should be fed.
At 20*C a Koi will take about 5 hours to digest food, the colder the water the longer it will take to digest their food. As long as Koi are hungry there is no harm in feeding them. Only feed what they can eat in 10 minutes, most Koi stops begging for food between the temperatures of 12*C and 6*C.
I think wheat germ is a sales gimmick! Mind you. It mixes nicely when adding garlic to it!
I do use a wheat germ after I stop to feed my Koi for 30days (July), starting August with temperature above 16*C, with my after winter treatment.
http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=444#444

Food for thought...... I mean, for winter

WINTER FEEDING
Winter Feeding With Wheatgerm Sticks
The use of foods rich in wheatgerm to feed to koi during the colder months has always been popular amongst koi enthusiasts. Japanese koi keepers have routinely used wheat germ foods and hobbyists around the world have followed suit, in many cases without questioning why. This "tradition" is now being questioned, primarily by manufacturers who do not produce a wheat germ food.
The aim of this article is to take a closer look at wheatgerm, its benefits and the whole question of winter koi feeding. This will happily allow you to decide whether the wheatgerm "tradition" makes sense.
WHAT IS WHEAT GERM?
Wheatgerm is the name given to a small part of the wheat seed. It is the part of the seed that germinates (hence the name) and allows the wheat plant to start growing. The wheat germ is surrounded by the rest of the seed, which provides a large food source. To utilize this food, the wheat germ has to be rich in certain vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids and proteins.
BENEFITS OF WHEAT GERM TO KOI
The rich and concentrated nutrients contained within wheat germ have a number of benefits if consumed by koi For example wheatgerm is rich in:
Vitamin E - a vitamin important for protecting cell membranes, allowing the effective use of fats and improving the overall health and vigor of the koi In addition, it is important for the development of the reproductive organs and therefore benefits the fertility of the fish.
Vitamin C - essential for the efficient use of other nutrients and for skeletal formation. In combination with vitamin E, it helps koi overcome problems associated with stress.
Fatty acids - the important fatty acids contained within wheat germ are used to form the cell walls, to improve the digestion of other nutrients and as a storable energy source. Wheat germ is particularly rich in linoleic acid, which is essential to koi for tissue repair.
Amino acids - wheatgerm contains Lysine, an important component of the diet to allow tissue repair and formation as well as promoting the immune system.
Wheatgerm as an ingredient in a balanced nutritional food will obviously have some important benefits on both you and your koi. Health food shops have recognized this, and sell large amounts of wheat germ in a wide variety of forms.
Koi foods vary considerably in the amount of wheatgerm they contain. It is an expensive component of the food - after all only 5% of the wheat seed is the germ, the rest has to be discarded. As a result some of the less expensive "wheatgerm" foods contain as little as 5% wheat germ, whereas high quality wheatgerm foods contain more than six times this quantity.
WINTER FEEDING FOR KOI
The nutritional requirements of a koi vary considerably throughout the year, hence the need for a range of diets. To pick one of many examples, protein is necessary for growth, but can only be used at warm temperatures (over 16°C). Therefore in summer we feed a high protein food, in spring and autumn a moderate protein diet and in winter, when the fish are not growing, a low protein diet.
Feeding protein rich foods in winter can actually harm the koi. Because they cannot be stored by the fish, and are not being used for growth, the proteins pass straight through the fish. The resultant protein rich waste, together with any uneaten food can have adverse effects on the water quality as it decomposed.
Foods containing significant quantities of animal or fish protein can also take long periods to digest. If after being eaten, the water temperature drops (as it may well do in winter) the food can remain in the intestine for long periods and cause problems.
To avoid these two problems many pond keepers simply stop feeding their fish when the water temperature falls below 10°C. The theory here is that although the fish still feed, they can obtain sufficient nutrition from within the pond and from their stored food reserves. Whilst this may be a possibility in a heavily planted, low stocked pond, it would not be the best option in a koi pond. Not feeding over the 3-4 month winter period leads to the koi being thinner and weaker, and consequently more susceptible to disease attack in spring.
Good quality wheatgerm foods are formed from easily digestible plant ingredients. These are characterised by a high roughage content which results in a faster transit time of the food through the intestine, even at low temperatures. this can result in the food remaining in the intestine for only 25-30% of the time that a "normal" food containing animal protein would.
Feeding such a diet to your koi throughout the winter promotes the condition of the fish but has little or no effect on their growth. It is the carbohydrates contained within the plant ingredients that are important as an energy source for the fish. In addition the wheatgerm allows better utilisation of other ingredients in the food.
BENEFITS ON SPRING HEALTH
By providing koi with a suitable diet - that they can use - throughout the winter, the health of the fish in the spring can be improved. Obviously if they have not had to rely on their food reserves the fish will be more active and stronger. However there is also evidence to suggest that the amino acids in wheat germ can strengthen the immune system of the fish - and ensure it is in good condition to counter diseases which will be present as the water temperature increases.
In extreme cases, starving the fish through the winter can lead to vitamin and mineral deficiencies, with the consequent direct effects on koi health. Here again, feeding a food that the koi can utilise at low temperatures will improve their health.
FLOATING FOOD
The original wheatgerm foods were largely sinking. The idea being that the lethargic fish in cold water would not want to rise to the surface to feed. This view has now been discarded by the leading manufacturers. If the fish are not active enough to rise to the surface to feed, it is a good indication that they should not be fed. Added to this, any uneaten food should always be removed. If it is on the pond bottom the koi in their state of dormancy and the warmer bottom water have to be disturbed.
The evidence is quite conclusive. Feeding your koi through the winter is important to keep them healthy and to allow them to overcome the spring dangers. This food has to be a vegetable food with a high wheat germ content to ensure that it passes quickly through the intestine and can be utilised by the koi. But as with all koi feeding, only feed the fish on as much as they will consume within 2-3 minutes - and use a good quality product.
Sourced from
http://www.hunnyhill-aquatics.co.uk/winterfeeding.htm

Thanks for the article Paul.

if i read that article i come to the conclusion that the feeding of wheatgerm is only nessecary if the water temp is below 15C.

The article does show that the wheatgerm adds to the health of the kois during winter so i think i will stick to mixing wheatgerm and high protein as our water tempreatures are still above 16 C.

I cant recall every having my pond water temp below 15 C. I went out and checked the temp off my pond this morning and it was sitting at 19C but i guess we are not in the heart of winter yet.

Hi,

This is a fascinating subject. Although I have collected koi since 1972 it still fascinates me - every part of koi keeping.

Some thoughts on wheat germ koi foods -

We know that koi are poikilothermic – their body temperature is the same as the surrounding water. As temperatures increase the metabolic rate increases. As the metabolic rate increases the bodies demand for oxygen and nutrients increases – the appetite increases. It eats and breathes, grows and gives us pleasure in observing them.

As temperatures decrease the opposite of all this occurs right down to the point where the fish does not need much nutrition, energy or air. The appetite decreases to the point where the fish will stop feeding – even if you do an Irish Jigg at the edge of the pond with nothing on. Nothing changes – metabolism and therefore appetite decreases at lower temperatures. The same enzymes are released in the gut, the same proteins, energy sources etc are needed – but at a reduced rate.
Koi need specific things in the diet. These being protein, carbohydrate, vitamins & minerals. Each of these nutrients of the diet are required in certain amounts.

Further to our understanding of koi nutrition there are two main components of a koi pellet. Protein and carbohydrate. Increasing one means you have to reduce the other. As an example, a koi pellet with say 40% protein would have over 40% of the pellet in a protein raw material and around 32% of the formula in a carbohydrate raw material. Change the protein level to say 16% then you would have to increase the carbohydrate inclusion to above 60%.

It makes more sense to feed a high protein diet but feed less - even in summer. Feeding more of a low protein diet simply increases the amount of carbohydrate you feed the fish. Koi need healthy levels of protein because the skin lustre, colour, body shape etc is critical – common carp need size and big bellies. Carp diets are formulated with this in mind hence they use 32% as a maintenance and 38% for growth. Feed your koi a high protein year round but simply feed less ....

Wheat germ – raw wheat germ - is 29% protein, high in lipids and fibre as well as being low on certain amino acids and missing others completely. (I’ll dig up the complete analysis some time). All plant protein sources, in their raw state are deficient in amino acids. This is the reason scientists are battling to find cost effective replacements for fish meal in fish foods and get the same results. By the way, the most promising substitute for fish meal in fish foods is soya. Much research is going into replacing fish meal as a protein source in fish foods as this is becoming expensive and scarce.

As commercial wheat germ koi foods usually have between 30 – 35% protein we must ask ourselves how they got to that level of protein if they only used wheat germ as an ingredient. The answer is “wheat germ” koi foods are koi foods with a percentage of wheat germ in them but they are not pure wheat germ. There would be something like 12 – 15% wheat germ + another protein source such as fish meal, soya, gluten etc. To get to a 34% protein level.

As temperatures decreases everything slows down – again we must ask why change the type of food. The koi’s need for protein decreases BUT the need for energy – carbohydrate – also decreases. Yet with each and every pellet you are feeding both carbs and protein. Lower the protein in food in winter and you increase the carbohydrate levels you are feeding – but koi do not need so much carbohydrate. They cannot utilise it so it is stored as fat. Dogs and cats – warm blooded creatures need higher carbohydrate foods for energy because their bodies create their own heat.

A useful snippet of info – I noticed on the Tetra winter feed recently introduced there was 41% protein. Tetra is a very reputable company that has vast resources behind their research and development – yet they have now come out with, what is high protein winter food.

Over the years I have been unable to find any references that support the claim that wheat germ is more easily digestible. I do have a reference that states that wheat germ is more easily digestible than other plant protein sources. It’s not a great leap to modify the original claim and we have – wheat germ is more easily digestible.
All ingredients in a koi food are more digestible because they are all cooked in the extrusion process. All plant protein are less digestable than animal protein as they are bound up in the cells of the plant.

At low temperatures koi need less of everything. You can control this by decreasing the amount of food you are giving the collection. At lower temperatures feed once every other day or at really low temperatures stop feeding. Koi will stop feeding when the temperatures are low so you can’t over feed your koi but you can over feed your pond.

Hope this throw some light on the subject.

Chris

I have been feeding one food for eight years and have never ever had any problems related to this practice.
I will continue to do so because it works for me and not because someone says it is better otherwise.
I must add that I also feed natural food inbetween.

Does Shogan have a winter germ food?

Or is it only one?

Hi,
An interesting subject this wheat germ koi food.

With regards winter being a time to feed a low protein diet - I wonder. Koi do not need more carbohydrate as they do not need this energy source to produce body heat. When you lower the protein content of the food you increase the carbohydrate part.

Secondly I notice that the Tetra winter Wheat Germ food is 42% protein. They must know something we don't.

As you ask - Shogun only produces one food. I do have a some wheat germ as part of the formulation. Less wheat germ inclusion than Tetras wheat germ food.

You control the feeding levels in winter by simply feeding much less of the same food. You are going to feed less of ANY food in winter so why spend much more on a so called winter feed?

I am not really in favour of using a "different" diet for all four seasons throughout the year.

Regards,
Chris

Great thanks.

I mixed it with garlic and olive oil.

The fish seem a lot more excited at feeding time now..