Hi received this mail, what does the experts say?

Good day

First I want to thank you for your info and experience shared on your web page, may I ask to share and recommend your opinion regarding the following;

I have a pond of +- 20 000l (4.5m x 2m x2m) with 16x koi of +- 30cm each, my pond is 3 years old with one bottom drain, .75kw motor, then a bubble bead filter, then the old sand filter with “macaroni –like” media inside, then the bio filter, this is followed by the UV light and 2 x venturi inlets into pond.

No skimmers or settlement chambers.

My problem; I backwash at least once a week, sometimes even twice a week, do a 30% water change, but still my water is not clear, cannot see the bottom of pond. ( UV globe is 2 months old).

This problem since I’ve had pond, that’s why I replaced sand filter with bubble bead filter, but without any joy. I even find sludge in my filter.

According your webpage you recommend settlement chambers, is this right, in what order will you place this, what type can you recommend, and with what do you fill them, some web pages talk of vortex other of matala and so on.

Will this solve my problem or do you see other problem?

Please help I am desperate!

Thanking you

Wimpie v Niekerk

no where has Wimpy specified what size UV he has.......what if he has a single 8w or 15w on the pond.....therefore surely he's pond would not be clear.

If the water is not clear then it can only be UV, seeing he has a new pond and that it could take up to 18months for decent bacteria to develop so that one can do away with a UV, so in this case I would bet my money on a UV that is too small for that size pond.

A mate was telling me last night where he had a look at someone's pond recently, was a 30000lt pond with an 8w UV light and he just couldn't work out why his water was green.....lol

Hi wipie
Like cliff said ,what size uv do you have.?
On your pond i suggest you add another uv light a 55 watt or 2 x 30watt on your 2 returns .
Your macaroni like media in youir sand filter should be replaced by koi sand 3 to 5mm this will polish your water and trap the fine particles that are escaping from the !macaroni! media.
My suggestions only ,see what other feed back you get and then decide.
Thanks
Anver

Hi Wimpie

Where are you based? Your sandfilter must and will clean your water to a sparkle. One 3 bag sandfilter will struggle a bit but you dont have a lot of fish so lets try.
It has to have the proper set of koi sand filter fingers in for a start. Then you have to put the correct sand into it. and then you have to keep it clean. Back washing alone does not help you have to stir and turn that sand around. And every so often you have to take all the sand out and put it back in again and backwash again. You don't have to have a settlement chamber however they certainly help. 2 x 30Watt UV's would be my recommendation in a split line not in tandem use them only when necessary.

I agree with the sandfilters. Get another sandfilter in there.... Use one with Koi sand and the other with normal pool filter sand. This alone will make a huge difference. REMEMBER to open the filters and stir while backwashing at least once a week.

Mr. Pieter de Villiers, the SF ...... can give the best advice regarding the sandfilters.

Mr. De Villiers...............the stage is yours sir!!

Hell Chris,

Met so 'n uitnodiging sal ek iets moet plaas!

Wimpie,

Is dit moontlik om fotos van jou stelsel te plaas, net om 'n beter idee daarvan te kry voordat ek my siening lig?

Ek stem saam met Pieter ... gee bietjie fotos.

Hello Pieter!!!!!!

Mooi so Chris, jy het hom mooi uitgelok die B....m

Geweet as iemand net iets oor n sandfilter se sal hy wel plaas.

Ek dink Admin moet die een raam, "OOM PIETER se terugkeer"

Moelike ou man die OOM PIETER

Wimpie het skoon geskrik vir die moeilike man, hy is doodstil.

Welkom terug Pieter.

Wekom terug Pieter, ek het gewonder hoe lank die nog gaan neem.

Gepos namens Wimpie

Hierby n basiese skets van my sisteem, die "sandfilter" het ek juis vervang met die " macaroni media" op aanbeveling van prominente kundiges van JHB nadat ek die "bubble bead " by hulle gekoop het. Niks het egter verbeter na hierdie verandering, o ja, ek het n 30w UV. Miskien moet ek eers die 2 x UV van 30w elk eers probeer, miskien is dit daar waar my probleem is, dat die water te vinnig deur beweeg. Sal julle my aanraai om weer sand in die sandfilter te sit en die sandfilter steeds na die bubble bead te hou. Ervaar iemand anders met n bubble bead ook die probleem van die "vingers" wat verstop met "sludge" en hoe hanteer julle dit?
Wimpie

Hi Wimpie

Ja ek sal die sandfilter weer met die regte koi gruis volmaak en jy kan hom maar na die bubble bead plaas dis ok.

Een van jou probleme is dat jou bubble bead nou eintlik jou sediment filter is en ek weet nie of hulle dit so goed kan doen nie, jy sal hom maar net eenvoudig meer gereeld moet skoonmaak. Onthou as jou water eers skoon is dan sal die skoonmaak minder gereeld hoef te gebeur.

Die UV sal nie die water skoonmaak tensy dit alge is wat die water vuil maak nie. Dit klink eerder vir my asof jou pomp net eenvoudig nie die vis afval vinnig genoeg kan uit haal nie. of dat jou huidige filter media dit nie alles opvang nie.

Wat ek nou se, se ek saggies: Ek sou daai bubble bead filter terug convert na n tweede sandfilter.
Onthou net ook om jou lyn te split vir die twee UV's.

Plaas ook jou venturie return bo die water oppervlak en nie onder water nie. Ek sou dit heeltemal wegneem water wat net inval veroorsaak baie suurstof.
Dan hoop ek ook dat jou return nie reguit na die bottom drain gaan maar wel eers die dam n bietjie sirkuleer.

Wimpie,

If the sand filter is an old swimming pool filter, the “fingers” in the filter should be modified, to accommodate any material that is bigger then the normal “swimming pool filter sand,” as this will block the “fingers” reducing the water flow.
What kind of Bio filter are you using?

I do not like a bubble-beat filter as it will not clean the water better then a sand filter!
Bubble bead filters were developed in the UK where the climate is generally much colder then here in South Africa, so it will work nicely in colder ponds.

As you already have a bead filter, suggest using it as a first Bio filter, placed behind the sand filer in your system.

This is how I would modify the system:
Sand filter with 3-5mm “sand” (after you modified the fingers*)
Follow by the Bubble bead filter, then the Bio filter and the UV light ( 1 x 55watt will do)
Back to the pond

Back wash once a week, remove the sand from the filter once a month, loosen and remove the sand around and under the fingers. Replace the sand, back wash until the water comes out clear.
Clean the bead filter once every three months.
Also clean the pump basket once or twice a week if necessary.

You do not need a settlement chamber. I am running my ponds without it for years!

Note: Lift the Venturis’ out of the water. (As Neville mentioned)

*See modification on sand filter fingers at:

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=729


Moet se...........ek is trots op my student!

My fok komende van jou is dit een hengse kompliment

Baie dankie U EDELE SF

Neville. Unless I make a big mistake you recently posted this;

“Hi Wayne
Thanks for your posting, it is excactly how I feel, about sand filters and mine will be up for sale shortly.
My vortexes 3x cleans my water very well and it comes out crystal clear. in my case I only have to increase the flo a bit as iI am not sirkulating fast enough and then I shoud be fine. It is actually nice to walk up to the vortexes and open the tap and see all the muck go till clear, close it and voila job done. The three take 5 minutes to do and negligable water loss. I dont even want to go through everything I tried with the sand filter. The problem is the dirt is not dust like in a swimming pool, it is sticky and like oily we all know and that sh...t just does not come out. Remember at shows to ceep thar water clear is easy there is no muck the fish were not fed for 2 weeks, you dont even need a sand filter just a trough filled with sand and gravity it back. So I will just put new sand in for the time being. If all this costs are added a Nexus would probably work out to be a lot cheaper sooner.
_________________
The Working Pensioner
ngbhome@icu.za.net”

Since then you have come a long way; you learnt how to operate a sand filter and now you are a sand filter prophet propagating the replacement of other filter systems with sand filters, even converting bubble bead filters to sand filters!

Good to see that even old toppies like us can change our minds! Shows you what good advice, experience, effort and knowledge can do.

On the topic of “Wimpies water” a lot of unknowns are evident; in the meantime let us look at the known facts;
• A 20000 litre pond.
• 30% weekly water change.
• One bottom drain feeds the filter system.
• One .75 kw pump.
• The sand filter did not work for Wimpie hence he installed the bubble bead filter in an attempt to get his water clear.
• 30 watt UV.
• The bubble bead filter gets clogged with sludge

So some thoughts for discussion;

• One bottom drain only to feed the filter system, arguable the root of all the evil! If this bottom drain is less than 110 mm we are faced with a desperate situation.
• The .75 kw pump will at best circulate somewhere in the region of 14000 litre flow per hour after passing through the multiport valve and piping. In my opinion hardly adequate for this size pond.
• I am acutely aware that various schools of thought exist as to the use of settlement chambers; I am a settlement chamber believer as it offers vast opportunities, amongst others, of filter configuration and expansion while removing the major solids. In this situation I will consider the feasibility of adding a settlement chamber or at least a vortex before the pump in an attempt to remove the major solids before it enters the filter system. This in itself should improve the water clarity even if nothing else is done.
• Contemplate the possibility of installing a surface skimmer. These I have learnt and found to assist greatly in achieving clear water.
• Is 30% weekly water change not excessive?
• The 30 watt UV is in my opinion inadequate but not the principle witch in the story.
• In my opinion the turnover rate is inadequate and warrants serious thought. I doubt that the existing filter line as it stands is adequate to produce the required results. Is it possible to install a second feed line from the pond to a second filter system?
• A bubble bead filter and, for that matter, a sand filter will get clogged with sludge when fed straight from the pond without a settlement chamber or some devise to trap the major solids. If used like this regular and thorough cleaning will be required, once a week backwash only is simply not enough!
• Wimpie now possesses a bubble bead filter and in my opinion should use it; mine is giving me satisfactory results.

Sand and bubble bead filters both has advantages and disadvantages. After consideration of all and without getting involved in another heated argument I simply state that the bubble bead is my weapon of choice.

In Wimpie’s position I will consideration the following configuration;

• Use the sand filter on the existing filter line and, if the route suggested by SF (good to see you back in action) is chosen, remove the bubble bead from that filter line and retain the macaroni media from the by then modified and refitted sand filter. Is this media the Kaldnes K1 type media?
• Install a second filter line, gravity fed if possible, to increase the turnover rate.
If at all feasible install a surface skimmer and settlement chamber of some sorts. If the bottom drain can lead to the settlement chamber this arrangement may then be able to feed both filter lines.
Alternatively feed from a slotted and capped pipe from the pond leading over the edge to the second filter line.
In this second filter line the bubble bead filter and an aerated container containing the macaroni media can be used as a bio filter. The amount of media to use is in direct relationship with the size, number and feed rate of the Koi in the pond. Finally return to the pond through above water returns or a waterfall (assisting in aerating the pond).
The pump should be installed immediately before the bubble bead. The bubble bead does not require a high flow rate pump, 10000 litres per hour plus. A low power consumption pump could be considered. These pumps are normally not self priming but a solution to this is possible. Don’t overlook the value of a leave trap of some sorts.

As a matter of cause none of the above will be easy or cheap but by now we know that Koi keeping is not for sissies or the faint hearted.

Hi,

agree that a bubble bead will work better with a settlement chamber. A settlement chamber will also help to reduce the “dirt” caught up in a sand filter.
Having said that, that’s all it does!

A sand filter is better then a babble bead filter for mechanical filtration period!

If the water is drowned direct or through a settlement chamber by a pump (, 45kw -1,5kw) using a 50mm pipe, the pump will deliver not more then 260 liters per minute!
( 260lt p/min x 60 = 15600lt per hour x 24 hours = 374 400lt over a 24-hour period, divided by 20 000lt ( pond volume) the water turnover is18,72 times at max.
If your argument is taken in account of 14000 lt per hour, the turn over will be 16,8 times, which is still more then adequate.

A weir is not essential as al floating dirt will go down to the bottom of the pond.

Quote :

A bubble bead filter and, for that matter, a sand filter will get clogged with sludge when fed straight from the pond without a settlement chamber or some devise to trap the major solids. If used like this regular and thorough cleaning will be required, once a week backwash only is simply not enough!

This is pure nonsense!

The set-up I suggested will work.

Regarding Neville, he saw the light. Hy verstaan nou hoe sand filters werK

Jan, as jy skoon water wil sien, kom kuier vir my!

"GOOD JUDGEMENT comes from experience. Experience comes from POOR JUDGEMENT."

I have seen that water and believe me, it is crystal clear.

Hi Jan
Sjoe my friend what a posting to reply to.

I was wondering when someone will remind me of that posting, I was realy the M...R in at the time.
The short and sweet about sandfilters IMO is that very few people clean them properly. I see and hear that often. "But we backwash every week" well that does not do anything to a pond sandfilter. And I think Wimpie also has a problem here, sure he has never unpacked that filter. Once you clean them properly they work very well. They get dirty because they remove the dirt from your pond.
My experience on bubble bead filters is not that good I still have to see one working under adverse conditions. In my opinion you should not mix Sediment filtration with Bacterial filtration.

Now to Wimpies problems and your suggestions.

Your observations and suggestions are not wrong, and would be easily incorporated into a new system. But remember we have here an excisting system and limited information.

All I am trying to do is to solve Wimpies problem as cheaply as possible.

Yes, I also agree the 30% water change is wrong, that will increase algea growth and add to the problem, but we do not know if his problem is algea related at this stage.
I also run my system without settlement chamber and therefore all the muck ends up in the sandfilter and the vortexes. Unfortunately Wimpie will not be able to install Vortexes. so that option is out.

I cannot fault your suggestion to Wimpies problem other than cost. One must also keep in mind the running costs. I still think Wimpie can get away with one sandfilter, the bubble bead, a fair size Ultra Zap type bio filter and 2 x 30W UV lights. (will be better than one 55W). Remember his stock level is not high.

Pieter has gone through the turnover rates etc. and I can only agree with him he is correct.

Keep the filters clean, that remains the important thing, a dirty filter, no mater the make, will not perform. If it has to be daily, well then do it daily.

Thanks for your post Jan you got my brains going flat out today.

Hi Wimpie,

Your koi appear to be alive and healthy - so the bioconversion is working.

Your water is not clear - So take a step back and look at what you have and figure out why. The sand filter is a very good mechanical filter. So why is the water not clear? It does trap solids and it does clog - because it works. It works when used correctly.

But I see you have some sort of macaroni like media in the sand filter. Presumably this is nylon shavings. In a small pressurised chamber like the sand filter this is where the mechanical filtration should take place. But it is not, as your water is not clear.

Getting clear water in a pond begins with controlling the things that create turbidity. These would be algae and various solids in the form of atmospheric pollution (dust etc) soil run off, grass cutting etc.

So get the algae under control with a UV light of sufficient strength, Barley straw or a good safe chemical. Then make sure the other pollutants are kept to a minimum.

Unless you have a barrier of some kind in the sand filter the solids will simply be pushed straight through. The same with the bubble bead filter.

The build up of sludge means some part of your system cannot be completely cleaned. This needs to be improved. Where is the sludge build up?

So the first step to clear water in your case is to remove the macaroni and replace it with 3 – 5mm gravel or 5mm – 6mm zeolite chips. This is simple and cost effective. Then run your pond for some time before spending any more money.

Zeolite chips are lighter than gravel and will backwash and break up the crust that forms far easier than gravel. There will be no need to remove the zeolite as with gravel. I ran sand filters for more than 20 years with gravel then changed to zeolite just over a year ago to try it. Works really well.
Another thing you can do to assist with cleaning sand filter is to attach a Jacuzzi air blower and air bump the sand or zeolite bed.

Modify the fingers at the bottom as well to improve flow rates.

You could also use a good dose of bentonite clay to get the solids to floculate and be trapped easier in the filters.

Definitely get the venturi to return the water above the pond surface.
Larger water changes are really good for the koi. I do 20 – 25% per week. You will get better growth with large water changes.

With regards a skimmer – I consider this to be an essential design feature for keeping water clear.

Chris

Wise words from the expert. It is from postings like these that I obtain my knowledge.

Thanks Chris.

Hi,

Quote :

There will be no need to remove the zeolite as with gravel.

Zeolite is good for removing Ammonia from the pond water, and at one stage it will reach its saturation point if it is used as a filter media.
If the ammonia should rise over the accepted level, Zeolite will not remove the ammonia after the saturation point. In that case you need to remove the Zeolite from the filter, and “recharge” it, by placing it in a strong salt solution.

Pieter ek verstaan nie, verduidelik asb?

Pieter J de Villiers wrote:

Quote :

A bubble bead filter and, for that matter, a sand filter will get clogged with sludge when fed straight from the pond without a settlement chamber or some devise to trap the major solids. If used like this regular and thorough cleaning will be required, once a week backwash only is simply not enough!

This is pure nonsense!

I raked my brain in an attempt to understand how my statement could have possible provoked such a strong reaction.

In my opinion my statement and the following two are essentially the same.

Pieter:
Back wash once a week, remove the sand from the filter once a month, loosen and remove the sand around and under the fingers. Replace the sand, back wash until the water comes out clear.

Neville:
The short and sweet about sandfilters IMO is that very few people clean them properly. I see and hear that often. "But we backwash every week" well that does not do anything to a pond sandfilter. And I think Wimpie also has a problem here, sure he has never unpacked that filter. Once you clean them properly they work very well. They get dirty because they remove the dirt from your pond.

If a sand filter needs to be cleaned by removing and cleaning the sand once a month I surmise that once a week backwashing is simple not enough and this holds true irrespective of the manner in which it is used.

Or do I have it wrong?

Hi Jan

It is all relevant to how much dirt it has to collect. Chris Neaves uses a blower to assist the process I use a compressor. When u do this you don’t have to unpack once a month. Or if you for example had a 1.1 Kw pump on a 3 bag filter you probably also wont need to unpack. One has to asses your own situation and act accordingly, every pond is different. Sometimes you will get away for a long period if you open it and stir by hand. It is just that you have to assist the water flow to remove the muck.
Yes you are correct normal back washing only removes a small amount of dirt

Hi Jan

That is not a strong reaction, that is just a normal, Pieter the sf reaction.