Hi, Ed, only saw this now.

I totally believe in this system and belive that if the principre followed and the setup is done correctly then it will serve you well.

Also, looking at the way our energy costs are going to soar then this is definately the way to go.

But then you know i am fully converted.

wayne, sorry i have not maile/pm'd you yet. I need to try and figure out how to explain it simply.

i can explain the setup to you simply, but the hows and why's are a little technical.

i will get back i promise, iam planning to build a model and photographing the stages as a means of descibing how to do it.

I think the biggest stumbling block to this is how easy it is to put the so practice.

Also, Ed.

If you have the space and you are convinced then i would urge you to adopt this sytem. In the long run it is a better and healthier option and it also comes closer to what mother nature designed in the first place.

I dont think so

Thanks David for the reply.

I am definitely going to install this system. I need to increase the size of the fountain area at the top of the pond so I can place enough baskets.

Over the next few weeks, I will arrange a QT, and a builder, which is the hard part because I like to keep a close eye on the build, so my weekends will be busy.

I'll post pictures of progress as I go along.

Thanks again
Ed

I am doing a job today and tomorrow, whereby i am revamping a ponds filtration, i installed an anoxic type filter on this pond in November 2009, this chamber is being cleaned a and tweaked as part of the job aswell. I will take a few pics etc so that you guys can see how it is done in practice and how easy it actually is.

Hi,

This system is a time-bomb for ulcers! Stay away!

For once I agree with Pieter

Hi Pieter

Do you remember the Pond Safari we went to that had the same filtration
There were some stunning koi but full of Ulcers I agree Keep Away

Hi Joe,

Yes, I remember, that was the one in Pretoria!

I agree, big no no

Why do we always try and re-invent the wheel

Neville wrote:

Why do we always try and re-invent the wheel

That is Human nature or I call it typical South African mentality I know it all or better and that is why we pay so much school fees.

1. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
2. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Hi David
Koiphen is a very controversial forum in the eyes of the serious USA Koi Keeper, very big on the garden ponders which seems to be a big market in the USA. The few more serious Koi Keeper names on this tread does not agree with this methods on offer. Personally I will not risk my Koi on such a system. Over time this can only produce Ulcers

If this view will be entertained by Koi Bito the serious and respected Koi keepers forum, it will surprise me tremendously.

The main principles when it comes to filtration is:

Lots of oxygen to stimulate Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas;
Maximun surface area for beneficial bacteria;
Easy to clean;
Minimun breeding ground for bad bacteria.(no stagnant areas)

In my opinion, this filter does not comply with any one of these principles.

i hear what you guys are saying , all i am saying is that there are alternatives. No filtration unit is wrong or right and all need to be maintained. One fact about anoxic is that the water entering the filter has to be CLEAN. If you are pumping dirty water into the filter then yes, there is a very distinct possibility of health issues.

Those links contain the facts, especially the UK one.
Koiphen is not just an american site it is global, us, uk, sa, aus etc i included that link becuase Dr Novak himself actually replies to alot of questions on that thread.

The bottom line is that this system is really simple and i have posts and pics etc from people that have actually tried this and that speaks volumes to me.

The other thing that really says alot is that the british guys are really converting to this in a big way and that really says alot to me.

This is not reinventing anything, it is actually going back to basics and simplicity.

Just remember one thing the so called best product or best new thing is normally seen the most all over the place because those are the people with the biggest marketing budget that are able to buy the so callled best scientists and experts in whatever field there product is being sold in.

A point in case, NIKE.

They had no clue whatsoever about running shoes, but you had a crazy man with a waffle iron and a vision and a marketing guru.

what do you have today, a global brand and a multi trillion dolloar company. And the actual quality of their product as relates to running is still debateble.

I will post the pics when i am finished later today and then that is all i will say on this site about this topic.

I have shared the facts and the scientific data, have given a pictoral example the rest is up to you. You buy in your you dont. Nobody makes money if you do, nobody looses sales if you don't.

Also, remember, the koi industry is like the fishing bait industry, most of the muti etc on the shelf is there to catch the fisherman and not the fish.

An example, on thursday i needed a piece of equipment for this job i am doing, from a koi retailer i was quoted a certain price, from a non koi related retailer i was given a price that was almost half cheaper, becarefull where you buy, koi is added to a particular product and the price doubles you can normally get that product in the "normal" sector at a fraction of the cost. The whole filtartion thing is a huge milk the consumer excercise. Be smart.

Read, research and then make an informed decision.

Paul
"The main principles when it comes to filtration is:

1. Lots of oxygen to stimulate Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas;

A. The system is open and has a large surface area for interface with the atmosphere, also the flowing of the water back to the pond further enhances this, just like any stream waterfall.

2. Maximun surface area for beneficial bacteria;

A. The clay in the baskets, the baskets themselves create huge amounts of surface area in addition to to the extra layers there is more bacteria that grow and more types.

3. Easy to clean;

A. it is easier to clean than a sand filter. Twice a year, a submersible is placed where the crates come out the chamber is drained the baskets come out whatever is there is scooped out and it all goes back in, the one i cleaned after 5 months had a few lilly roots and about 1/2kg of loose clay thats all, no sludge no stink.

4. Minimun breeding ground for bad bacteria.(no stagnant areas)

Due to the diffuser system there are no stagnant area's the water permeates and flows throughout

5. In my opinion, this filter does not comply with any one of these
principles

A. I challenge you. you have space, build a test system, stock it with speckeldygoi and run it for a year.

Dave,

If you believe in such a filter system then use it, but please don’t try to convince beginners to do so!

Hi David
David
Quote: This is not reinventing anything, it is actually going back to basics and simplicity.
I dont think anything can be more simple than a normal "Up and under" Bio Filter. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Neville wrote:

Hi David
David
Quote: This is not reinventing anything, it is actually going back to basics and simplicity.
I dont think anything can be more simple than a normal "Up and under" Bio Filter. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I agree with that statement aswell.

Quote :

Also, remember, the koi industry is like the fishing bait industry, most of the muti etc on the shelf is there to catch the fisherman and not the fish.

And most Koi Hobbyist is like fisherman always exaggerate and know better then the Springbok fisherman and the old fisherman that have done it for many years. I think it is sad.

Yes David
My grandfather also use to use an oxwagon and later they had donkey carts. And heck you should have seen my dads first Dodge van, man that was lekker 45 miles per hour with 1/2 ton load and 2 tools.

It is amazing how much debate this system has caused, especially on Koiphen and here now as well.

This is not about reinventing the wheel, or trading in your ox wagon for a Ferrari, or some fisherman with exageration problems.....

It is a filtration system based on nature, understanding the science behind what makes nature so successful at what it does, and then applying those principles to a filtration system that is very very cost effective.

There is always sceptism when some scientist comes along with a new approach. And the reason for this is that we can't understand it. I did alot of research and fortunately my wife majored in Chemistry when she completed her BSc, so for her this is easy, and makes sense. For me, it took awhile...

If I was a filter manufacturer or a koi retailer right now, I would be really annoyed with this guy. Why go and blow thousands on filter systems, often imported, when a few hundred will do an equal if not better job. Also, if I had just gone and spent R20K on my filter system without knowing about the anoxic system, I think I would go and drown myself in my pond!

Like everything we do before we buy anything, we have to research the market and see what is out there, how good is it, who recommends it, who does not, warranty, performance, cost etc etc etc. Then we make a decision. Some stick to existing methods and what the norm is, some venture out.

The point that I am trying to make is that we choose what is best for us. And what suites our needs at the time.

Dr Novak has tested this system for 20 years. He has "given" his system to all that want it for free, there is no financial gain for the guy.

The fact that he is a scientist, has had it for 20 years and successfully too, and has offerred it for free to all koi keepers convinced me. Without a doubt!

Having said that, we all choose! I'm sold on this, and I am doing it for my pond.

Quote :

It is a filtration system based on nature, understanding the science behind what makes nature so successful at what it does, and then applying those principles to a filtration system that is very very cost effective.

Hi Edd, ok i dont know the system at all and dont want to comment on its health...but it sounds very much like a gravel bed filter to me and i can guarentee you its nothing like nature.

Using natural materials does not make it a nature filter.

In nature "a river for example" water flows from point A to point B. There is no recuriculation of the water in a natural body of water... So yes you have bacteria growing on stones and pebbles and the plants are also playing their role but its "new" water that is continuesly moving over the pebbles and the rocks and as its moving along on its way to point B the water is being cleaned. Every year the river comes down with a force and pushes all the muck to the ocean. No one unpacks the river twice a year. If there is something wrong with the water quality of the river then only the fish down stream will be affected but in a koi pond if something goes wrong with the water all the fish will be affected.

I personally think we are fooling ourself to try and have a system that memics a natural water flow system....cause it cant be done. We are keeping fish in a closed concrete or rubber/plastic liner pond with much higher stocking densities than in nature and we are recurciulting the same water over and over while we heavily feeding our kois from an outside source thats not from inside the pond enviroment. This is nothing like nature.

Quote :

There is always sceptism when some scientist comes along with a new approach.

Quote :

It is a filtration system based on nature, understanding the science behind what makes nature so successful at what it does, and then applying those principles to a filtration system that is very very cost effective.

There are hundreds of koi filtration systems out there on the market and they all work. It is because nature is adapting...not because the filtration systems are natural and so because all filtration systems work the only questions i would ask regarding a filter system is.

1. How do i clean it?
2. How much is the capital outlay and the running cost a month.

Quote :

a filtration system that is very very cost effective

I had a look at the filtration mentioned above from a pure cost perspective and i dont see a huge cost saving or any cost saving for that matter.

1. You need a filter chamber...so you dont save any money here.
2. You need lots of baskets. - This is a cost. R80 each if you are lucky? I saw 24 crates in the previous image. Thats R80 X 24 = R 1920 for empty crates.
3. You need cat litter/gravel/montmorilite clay - This is a cost.
4. You need to clean this and its going to be time consuming. - This is a cost.
5. You need a normal water pump.

Now im a Kaldness K1 fan...

1. With K1 you will need a filter chamber whether its a self build chamber or a nexus or a vortex but to keep thing simular lets use a self build concrete filter chamber.
2. You will need K1 - thats R900 +- for 50L. 100L will more than enough for the normal koi keeper. that allows you to feed 500g of food a day.
3. You need an air pump. R 1000?
4. You will never have to clean this....priceless.
5. You need a normal water pump.

Now if i compare the two i dont really see this dramatic cost saving. The captial outlay in the beginning for K1 cant be more than all those baskets and stones / gravel.

So let me recap. We cant have a natural system in a koi pond because there is nothing natural about it. We can just thank nature that it adapts and that all filtration methods work but i honestly do not see any huge saving what so ever.

This is also not a filtration method i would reccomend to new keepers as it foot print is too big and it sounds too labour intensive.

Edhall i have a feeling you had your mind made up even before you posted here...

No wayne, no gravel.

guys, the one thing we have forgotten here is that the reason for this is the fact that it reduces the nitrates.

Nothing is simpler than an over under, nothing is more efficient than the type of setup that bobby has.

ANd for the average hobbiest a vortex setup would be awesome.

What all have these have in common is that they produce nitrates at the end of it all and these need to be removed via water changes.

This system does all of the above and then continues to reduce nitrates in addition.

Heres my water parameters from the last time i tested, i feed at 07am and this test was taken at 08h23.

water temp : 21
Ammonia : 0
Nitrites : .25 mg/l
Nitrates : 0

PH : 7.4

Fully mature system 12000 litres , 2500 litres in filtration

Flow rate : 9500 l p/h
boyu acq 3 running on the bottom drain and in an airlift for circulation.

The only water chage i do is to refill after flushing my bottom drains once a week.

That was the reason i chose to investigate this system, the nitrates as it means less waterchanges and cost incurred.