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| | can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? | |
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tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:01 pm | |
| these fish are 20-24cm and are going on to two years old soon. - Attachments
- male or female.jpg
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| | | PhilipV
Posts : 56 Reputation : 3 Join date : 2011-07-29 Location : Freestate
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:45 am | |
| Hi. It's more difficult to tell while they are still small/young. I'm not that experienced, but I would say the ogon on the right might be female due to the more rounded bodyshape as well as the more rounded pectoral fins. If it is of great importance, it will be best to take them to an experienced keeper/dealer to be sexed. Enjoy your koi.
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| | | tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:31 am | |
| - PhilipV wrote:
I'm not that experienced, but I would say the ogon on the right might be female due to the more rounded bodyshape as well as the more rounded pectoral fins. . I also thought that. I haven't had trouble with sexing koi in the past. Then I read an artical on the internet about deformities in ogon koi. The deformities included the tendency for ogons to grow fat aswell as fin deformities, such as absent pectoral fins, sickle shaped fins or very small fins... This just confused me further, because I know females have smaller rounded fins, and males have larger sharper fins and slender bodies. Then I started to notice that the pec fins in the 'suspected' female were more pointed than that of my karasugoi and shiro bekko females. And then I also noticed that the koi on the left has a slender body, larger pectoral fins but the edges on the fins seem to be more rounded than the koi on the right!?????but I guess I will just have to do some more waiting and reaserch on yamabukis...thanks for the input,very much appreciated. |
| | | Admin Admin
Posts : 2330 Reputation : 46 Join date : 2007-07-25 Age : 62 Location : Cape Town
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:49 pm | |
| I have posted the link to one of the best articles on the subject a while ago on this forum although I do not agree 100% with everything said: http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/Male-or-Female.pdf
Herewith an extract without the photos: Written by Mike Snaden and the article appeared in Koi Carp.
"Many people think that the sexing of koi is extremely straight forward, and that things like body shape, pectoral fin shape, or flipping the koi over and looking at the vent will give us the answer conclusively in just a few seconds.
Whereas this may be a relatively simple task, there are many misunderstandings over what constitutes a male, or female. My hope with this article is to help you to understand how the Japanese ascertain the sex of a koi before it is offered for sale, or kept as tategoi. Sexing large koi is usually quite easy, and obvious. In most cases, a breeder can simply flip the koi over and observe the vent or, if in doubt, check the koi for milt. With younger koi like tosai however, it is more a case of checking various aspects of the koi, and coming up with a percentage of odds of sex, like perhaps '80% female'. Although male tosai can be used for breeding in some cases, it is quite common for tosai not to be producing milt. This is when sexing as a measure of 'odds' comes into play.
One of the most common misconceptions, is that male koi have bigger pectoral fins than females. A koi's fin size is absolutely no indication of sex. It is fair to say that some males can sometimes have pectoral fins that are a little more rounded, like table tennis bats, but just because a koi has fins that are this shape, or aren't, is no sensible way of sexing them.
What we can glean from a koi's pectoral fins though is from their texture, and profile. Males will tend to have rough leading rays to their fins, but this isn't always the case. Sometimes this roughness can't be felt, but can be seen. This is why you will see breeders lift a koi from the bowl and watch the water run off the surface of the pectoral fin. If female it should appear shiny and smooth, but a male will look somewhat grainy as the water runs off. In addition to doing this, the breeder will also check the profile of the leading ray of the fin. You see, a male koi's leading ray will tend to be thicker (stronger), with a slightly blunt front edge. Females, on the other hand, will have a more delicate leading ray, with a front ray profile that draws to a finer front edge. A more common way of checking if a koi is male (when looking for males for breeding) is to check the gill covers for roughness. But this method is only really good for checking if a male is in breeding condition, as during the rest of the season the koi will more often than not have smooth gill covers, so this method is useless if you are looking for female koi.
terms of colour and sumi. This is largely why small males are frequently entered into koi shows. So, a male Go-Sanke will generally have redder colour, and the sumi will tend to be more developed and finished. But, once again, this isn't a method that should be used when trying to sex koi. Even from the same breeding some male koi will have colour that appears softer, like a female, and some females will have colour that appears harder, like a male. To further complicate things, different quality levels between siblings exist, as well as the fact that some koi will take on characteristics, like colour, from the male parents, and some will have the characteristics of the female parent. It is quite commonplace for people to express their opinion of the sex of a koi because of the appearance of its skin, or perhaps the white skin on the head looks a little yellow. This can be the case with koi but, once again, is something that should be disregarded. Confused? Whilst female koi will tend to have cleaner skin than males, their condition can change depending on their surroundings. The feeding of higher protein food, particularly at warmer temperatures, can cause the skin to become either slightly muddy in appearance, or very slightly yellow. Colour enhancing foods can also cause the same effect. It is also common for females (particularly large koi) to take on a muddy or yellow appearance during late August and September. This happens because of the koi going through its natural process of breaking down and disposing of eggs. Once this process is complete the skin will become brighter once again.
body shape Body shape is a tricky area when it comes to choosing koi. Many inexperienced hobbyists will often make the mistake of thinking that a female koi is in fact male, or vice versa, based on its body shape. Not only is it possible to make a mistake by judging a body shape, but it is also possible to buy an inferior koi if judged on this basis.
If you are looking for a male koi for breeding purposes, you can gently squeeze and run your hand towards the vent. If milt comes out, then it's male. But, don't assume that the fish is female if there isn't milt! This male is of reasonably high quality and, as you can see, the colour is very red. Male koi stay in good condition very easily, and are very well suited to harsher environments.
With high-end female tategoi the challenge is to keep the koi from finishing until it becomes Jumbo.
Male koi will tend to be slimmer than females, granted. But, young males will tend to have more body to them, and have a tendency to become slimmer as they get bigger. But this isn't always the case. Some male koi can become Jumbo, and even have big bodies like females. Likewise, female koi can often appear to have male bodies. In fact, when buying relatively young koi, like nisai (two-years old), a more desirable female will have a strong, but slim, body. A koi with a great deal of volume at this size, and particularly one that appears to be carrying eggs, will seldom get big. It should also be pointed out that not many female koi will grow Jumbo. Genetics plays a huge part and, even with the right genetics, you need to buy a koi with the right body type if you want one that will get big. In other words, don't simply buy female koi because you think they all get big. reaching a peak Another consideration when looking at male or female koi, is the duration of fun you can have from them. Male koi develop faster but are generally easier to keep, and stay looking good for a long time. Females on the other hand are the ultimate fun, if you have good raising techniques. With high-end female tategoi the challenge is to keep the koi from finishing until it becomes Jumbo, and then slowly raise it to its optimum condition. The reason for growing females in this manner is that their colour and sumi develops more slowly than males. Also, once a female reaches its peak it will then start to decline again in quality a year or two later. This is the reason that high-class females should be nurtured ideally in softer water, or mud ponds. The mud pond inhibits the koi's development, hence creating a koi that reaches its peak later in life, making for a much more beautiful koi as Jumbo. If on the other hand you raise a koi in harder water, or you choose to use a lot of clays or other mineral additives, the koi will reach its peak much earlier in life. Whereas these clays and mineral additives are great for conditioning koi for shows, they also limit the growth of the koi. If raising koi in such a manner, it is almost pointless trying to make it Jumbo as the condition of the koi will be on the decline a long time before it gets big!
As far as growing koi to Jumbo are concerned, if you know that you can keep females in fantastic condition, and make them Jumbo, great! But if you can only perhaps grow (or only wish to grow) koi to a maximum of say 70cm, then perhaps you are better off looking for male koi that have a likelihood of getting reasonably big. At least such koi will keep in good enough condition for them to get as big as you are hoping for." |
| | | tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:15 pm | |
| thank you very much Mr Viljoen. Do you know if the the thicker leading rays are present through-out the males life? or do they come along with the rough bumps on the fins & gills as the koi reaches sexual maturity? |
| | | wayneb Admin
Posts : 1681 Reputation : 29 Join date : 2007-12-08 Age : 46 Location : Kraai Fontein, Cape Town Metropol
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:25 pm | |
| I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week. The one on the right has the look of a strong male. Very big head and mouth, regardless of its sex its going to a big fish - i hope you have a big pond. The one on the left looks more feminine...so maybe your'e lucky. |
| | | tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:27 pm | |
| - wayneb wrote:
- I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week.
Yip you know exactly where I bought them lol...I actually went there looking for showa and shiro utsuri, then I saw these... I have never seen ogon with such clean skin tone ever before so I just had to get them. My pond is approx 6thousand litres with at least 25 goldfish over 20 cm,3 stunted petshop koi, a hybrid and another 5 koi under 30cm incl these two is that big enough? |
| | | Cliff
Posts : 741 Reputation : 55 Join date : 2009-07-15 Age : 47 Location : JHB
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:25 am | |
| - tategoi-boi wrote:
- wayneb wrote:
- I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week.
Yip you know exactly where I bought them lol...I actually went there looking for showa and shiro utsuri, then I saw these... I have never seen ogon with such clean skin tone ever before so I just had to get them. My pond is approx 6thousand litres with at least 25 goldfish over 20 cm,3 stunted petshop koi, a hybrid and another 5 koi under 30cm incl these two is that big enough? Remove all the fish you have in there now and just keep the ogon's together and build a collection from these 2. You have far too many fish in your pond, I would not keep anything more than 4 - 5 fish in there to help them reach as much of their potential as possible. You can donate the others to someone in the junkmail quickly. Your petshop koi are stunted possibly because the pond is so overcrowded. How deep is your pond? |
| | | tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:44 am | |
| I've already removed most of the goldfish but I am only willing to get rid of one of the koi.the others are still babies at the moment and these yamabuki are the largest out of the young ones. But I guess I would have to see how they grow without the goldfish first before I decide to let go of the others. - Attachments
- DSCF3679b.jpg
- are these worth keeping. the largest is 43cm long & the bekko is 31cm.
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Last edited by tategoi-boi on Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| | | tategoi-boi
Posts : 25 Reputation : 0 Join date : 2012-02-01 Age : 31
| Subject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female? Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:20 am | |
| The pond is around 800mil deep. |
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