QJones wrote:

Bobs what do you think the split is on your side interms of weighted contribution to growth?

Volume per fish 30%
Oxygen 10%
Water Quality/Filter effectiveness/Bio media 15%
Food 20%
Pond depth 5%
genetics 20%

I know the whole is greater than the sum of the parts -it must be, as the more you get right the greater the proportionate reward. I'd love to know what weightings you all place on the above in terms of your own success. Ernst, Wayne, etc - also what about some of the big players in Jhb and Durban!

Quinton to me they are all equally important and I don't have a cooking clue what the scientific answer would be. I believe that very valid points of importance can be made for all the points raised. In my opinion with one of those very basic factors missing it will be more difficult to achieve good growth and maintain show quality koi. The only point that to me is very debatable is pond depth. I have seen good quality koi kept in various pond depths from 1.2m onwards

Lets hear what Ernst has to say, maybe he has the scientific answer, the man has made his mark at our shows for some time now and is fanatical about Koi growth . I have always admired his water quality and the day that my water is looking good I always said, today I have Ernst water, well Drikus has now joined that club with Drikus water. They need to wait for me I will get their one day.

In my opinion:

50% Water quality - low TDS, soft and free of toxins like Ammonia etc- (influenced by volume per fish, turnover rate, filter effectiveness, source water, amount of water changes)

20% Genetics/Bloodline

15% Food (quality and frequency)

5% Oxygen

5% Temperature (high and stable) Fish in an above ground portapool for instance does not grow well because of the fluctuations in temperature.

2% Pond depth (more important for bodyshape than growth)

3% Other stress factors apart from stress created by abovementioned factors (presence of predators, dogs, interference by netting, noise, fluctuations in PH etc)

Interesting Paul
As is said, I have no idea on the percentages, but I can relate to your sequence of importance.

what does everyone else think?

Something of different view...

I think the fish behavior itself plays a huge role, take for example my shiru and shusui which were more or less the same size when i got them.

The shiru is always their first and fights with other fish to get as much food as possible but the shusui wont get into the thick of things and waits till it calms down and picks of what is still about.The gwoth difference over the last two months between the two is rather large.

So even if the Shusui has the right genetics, how does help if it doesn't have the right temperament or appetite ??

Just thought.....

Funny you should mention this LJ. When feeding I experience the oposite. My Utsuri would wait for things to quiet down and the Shusui completely takes over. If the Shusui didn't see me immediately he swims at me like a shark with the Dorsal fin out of the water... Always makes me laugh when i see this.

Not much I can add. I believe in the best food you can afford at the right amounts at the right time of the day.

High turnover with lots of current - my fish love hanging out in the current. Also lots of surface current is important - especially where they get fed.

Lots of O2 - the whole deal - shower filters, aerated bottom drains, waterfalls - everything that can add O2 to the water.

I prefer a deep pond - because stability is everything for koi. With high fluctuations in temp everything else also changes and that is stressfull to koi - and as you know when most of us stress we don't eat to much because of that 'knot' we get in the stomach.

I adjust my stocking density according to my water quality. It's a sixth sence you need to develop - you have to spend time with your koi often, espcailly when they eat - it will teach you lots about how they 'feel'.

TDS -well, I've got a inline TDS meter. They best I ever got it to was 250ppm with a constant inflow of fresh water. Our tap water has a TDS of 60 - 80ppm. Then i add just a bit of salt and the TDS goes to over 1000ppm - so much for that.

So I also have a inline ORP meter and an inline PH meter. I try to keep my ORP over 400mV and the PH stable between 7.2 - 7.4.

Besides that i try my best to enjoy the hobby and to learn from every fish in my pond.

Hi Ernst,

I am weak at the knees ..... stunned actually ...... are you saying koi keepers must actually enjoy their hobby ..... <grin>

It is fascinating that the Health Guide for SAKKS that I have just finished places a great deal of emphasis on exactly the things you mention in your posting. Actually far more emphasis on these things rather than sick fish!

Do you think koi keepers learn more and more about less and less in koi keeping until they know everything about nothing?

Great post you made.

Thanks,
Chris

Great Post, I feel inspired.

I am pleasantly surprised that you have noticed that Hobbyist can enjoy their hobby. I am of the opinion that your very negative and empty comments could be one of the reasons why people are afraid to post on this forum. We have these experts sitting in the background and coming up with this very inspiring post that says nothing accepts to promote you to a level above others.

Chris wrote:

Do you think koi keepers learn more and more about less and less in koi keeping until they know everything about nothing?

This could well comply with the Afrikaans post that have been posted on this forum.

Quote :

Julle mense wat dink julle weet alles, maak ons mense wat alles weet die bliksem in!

Yes Chris we as hobbyist especially those with no financial gain in the hobby do enjoy our hobby; why else would we spend our hard earned money on Koi and at times being ripped off by experts. The problem of enjoyment does not rest with the hobby but with the wise cracks about the hobbyist.

I have yet to see a poster been banned for his views on Koi keeping. I was under the impression that this is a forum that experts like yourself is entitled to help fools like me on the right track with actual wisdom and not comments that says nothing and add no value to the subject.

Chris please feel free to tell me or the other hobbyist where we are going wrong and you would also be pleasantly surprised that we will evaluate your comments. I can only hope that experts will allow us fools to evaluate their wisdom make a decision based on our own circumstances, needs, Koi goals and budget and then allow us to make our own mistakes.

Sorry my mistake I did not see an actual comment being made about the Koi growth subject!

As a hobbyist, is it that important for your fish to grow that fast.
I would have thaught that quality would be more important for a hobbyist, we dont want to sell our fish we want to look at them. A big, not good looking koi is not as nice as a smaller one with good colour and nice bodyshape.
Nice koi is not, and should never be a status simbol, it is there for the keeper, family and friends to enjoy.

Also then the overstocking does not become an issue so soon.

My opinion

Hi Neville, dis die manne wat skou wat maar die visse so bietjie druk. (Ek sluit myself in) Ons wil graag die vis so gou as moontlik groot kry om tekan kompiteer vir die groot pryse. Mens voer die vis gereeld in die somer en dan groei van nature baie meer en in die winter wanneer dit kouer is dan vang die kwaliteit op. Kyk nou maar net na die Sakai show en grow as voorbeeld. Daai visse wikkel met groei maar hulle is nou meer orange as rooi en hulle skubbe lyk so bietjie uit mekaar getrek maar in die winter dan raak die vis weer rooi en die skubbe trek dan weer terug.

Gelukkig groei meeste van die goeie bloedlyne redelik vinning van nature en behou baie van hulle hul kwaliteit goed.

'n koi groei die meeste van sy lewe in sy eerste 3 jaar. Elke jaar verdubbel hy amper sy lengte. So as iets sy groei onderbreuk of beinvloed in die eerste 3 jaar van sy lewe dan is hy gekniehalter vir die res van sy lewe en sal nie sommer weer opvang nie. Dis hoekom die so belangrik is op die kois in die beste omgewing en omstandighede teprobeer grootmaak - veral as jy wil skou ander sal die vissie maar moeilik by 70-80cm uitkom.

Ek sal tog n bietjie die sakai's dop hou, ek wonder net of mens dit nie hand in hand moet laat gebeur nie, gee kos en laat hulle dieselfde tyd goed oefen. hou hulle dop en voer daai bietjie minder of gee miskien ander tipes kos. Ek weet nie ek dink maar net hardop.

Hi Bobby,

Yes, this thread has moved a little off the original subject. But I feel I must reply to your posting.

I am sitting here reading your post on this thread over and over. One of the unfortunate things about the internet is you cannot pick up tone of voice, facial expressions etc. Surely my posting cannot be taken in that way?

Perhaps my dig in the ribs was misinterpreted. Bobby, I have never made “very negative and empty comments” on any forum. I am really taken aback by this. But then you learn something new every day in our hobby. And I do firmly believe a little humour is need in koi keeping.

Koi hobbyists tend to be overwhelmed with all the filtration systems, they tend to take certain things to seriously (such as water parameters). Eventually they move away from the essence of the hobby – the enjoyment. Koi keeping has so many variables that must be taken into account.

The points I have always tried to make: - comments that are helpful to koi keepers and some of these are based on your observation “at times being ripped off by experts” – 1) there are many ways to successfully keep koi. If it works for you that is the important point. (which is why I do not promote any single filtration system above another – just how its works. 2) It’s the application of filtration ideas that is often the root cause of problems and if we can discuss these practical applications we can help others become successful – not by totally replacing what they have with some or other idea or system but just using what they have in a better way 3) there are many myths surrounding koi food.

What struck me about Ernst’s posting was that here was a serious koi keeper, a successful koi keeper. Everything including bells and whistles as well as koi to die for – yet these things were not as relevant to him as the enjoyment of the hobby. That’s what made it a really good posting.
After all these years in the hobby – it’s still the enjoyment of koi keeping that keeps me going. My comments in that posting were intended as a humorous dig at the seriousness in the hobby – nothing more – nothing less.

The comment on helping “fools” is most uncalled for – there are no fools in koi keeping (my opinion) – I know this after being in the hobby since 1972 AND helping many hundreds of koi keepers over the years with information, pond visits and articles – for nothing. I to, as a hobbyist with no financial gain in the hobby, do enjoy the hobby.

This quote – “Julle mense wat dink julle weet alles, maak ons mense wat alles weet die bliksem in!” cannot in any way what-so-ever be compared to – “Do you think koi keepers learn more and more about less and less in koi keeping until they know everything about nothing?”

Anyone can see the Afrikaans one is an insult from an attitude of superiority (totally unacceptable to me) and personal but the other quote is firstly impersonal and secondly – humorous? Learning more and more etc is an adaption of a famous quote and dig at scientists. “Scientists are learning more and more about less and less until one day they will know everything about nothing” – I find that funny ..... and we need to smile and laugh a little more ..

Now back to achieving better growth ....

Kind regards,
Chris

Quote :

Koi hobbyists tend to be overwhelmed with all the filtration systems, they tend to take certain things to seriously (such as water parameters). Eventually they move away from the essence of the hobby – the enjoyment.

Ware woorde Chris.

Chris I think that the more you know the less you know and often it is thought that if you are almost fanatical about the hobby you cant be having fun. I think the oposite is the case - the more you are hooked the more money you spend, the crazier your schemes and plans, the more you are hooked. It certainly is an addiction. getting back to the growth story - I am interested to know what the serious guys equate the value of all thier gimmicks, gizmos and potions to koi growth. What are you guys all doing. Bobs and Wayne what about all the potions you guys use to improve growth and skin quality

Hello Chris, I cannot recall making remarks on you as a person or your standing in the koi community as a respected koi hobbyist, but merely commented apparently without a sense of humor on the post regarding Koi growth.

Chris wrote:

The internet does not allow a person to evaluate another persons ideas or comments properly because you cannot take tone of voice or facial expressions into account. So whilst a comment may seem funny to the person posting it this same comment can be taken as a great personal insult to another person.

I basically questioned the following statements as how this will add value to the Koi growth tread or to any hobbyist for that matter, my apologies for not seeing the humor, so who am I to argue the point should you see this as adding value.

Chris wrote:

I am weak at the knees ..... stunned actually ...... are you saying koi keepers must actually enjoy their hobby ..... <grin>

Chris wrote:

Do you think koi keepers learn more and more about less and less in koi keeping until they know everything about nothing?

QJones wrote:

Chris I think that the more you know the less you know and often it is thought that if you are almost fanatical about the hobby you cant be having fun. I think the oposite is the case - the more you are hooked the more money you spend, the crazier your schemes and plans, the more you are hooked. It certainly is an addiction. getting back to the growth story - I am interested to know what the serious guys equate the value of all thier gimmicks, gizmos and potions to koi growth. What are you guys all doing. Bobs and Wayne what about all the potions you guys use to improve growth and skin quality

Hi Quinton. Lets evaluate your question about Koi growth for a moment. I am no longer sure what is appropriate on this forum as their seems to be lots of stick aimed at the hobbyist that aspire to grow the ultimate Koi and dare to try and use the modern methods at hand. Apparently they spend to much money, spend to much emphasis on filters and generally seems to be a serious bunch that does not enjoy their hobby. This forum seems to have a following with this view should one evaluate the judgment calls made on hobbyist trying to aspire to this level. Believe you me I am trying and failing and enjoying every minute without others telling me different. I have yet to see that the more serious hobbyist made judgment calls on the keeping skills of garden ponders. I believe there should be a level of acceptance towards all levels of the hobby. Ask yourself why only a fool like me puts myself on the line on this forum to try and enjoy my hobby only to be told I fall in a category that don't, how many Koi Kitchi's are looking at this forum, but would not dare to post for the same reason. We have so many opinionated keepers that seems to know what other people enjoy and should spend on their hobby to be in with the knowledgeable ponders.

Jong Bobby ek weet nie waar pas ek in nie ... maar ek dink nie ons moet toelaat dat opinies ons opwen nie ... jis baie mense skud maar hulle koppe in ongeloof as ek van my damme vertel. Maar dit pla my nie ... ek het lekker damme en partymaal gee hulle my maar sleg opdraend maar dan gaan sit ek onder die boom en staar lank na die goed en gesels met die geeste.

Partykeer kry ek antwoorde ander kere moet ek maar my kop oortyd laat werk maar op die einde van die dag is dit kwaai lekker as ek met die emmer kos aangeloop kom en die visse skaats sommer so op die opervlakte nader my wye oop bekke

So ... whatever elke ou homself wil noem ... laat dit so wees maar ons moenie dat dit ons gatvol maak en in ons doppe in laat kruip nie.

Ek dink my en jou dam opsette is op die twee teenoorgestelde pole van die norm lyn en kyk nou ... ons altwee like ons visse en altwee het gesonde visse. As ek by jou plek kom gaan my bek oophang vir al jou kit en as jy by my kom gaan jou bek oophang vir my min kit ... so what ... ons altwee doen wat vir ons lekker lyk

Colyn wrote:

Ek dink my en jou dam opsette is op die twee teenoorgestelde pole van die norm lyn en kyk nou ... ons altwee like ons visse en altwee het gesonde visse. As ek by jou plek kom gaan my bek oophang vir al jou kit en as jy by my kom gaan jou bek oophang vir my min kit ... so what ... ons altwee doen wat vir ons lekker lyk

Ek stem 110% saam Colyn en ek kan beslis jou wonderlikke natuur set-up waardeer en jou vis geniet ongeag kwaliteit.
Ons almal maak maar ons besluite na gelang van omstandighede, indien spase vir my beskore was sou ek dalk heeltemal 'n ander koers ingeslaan het met dam projek. Dit beteken egter nie dat ek my Hobby minder as jy geniet omdat ek ander doelwitte het nie, en dit is andersom ook waar.

QJones wrote:

What are you guys all doing. Bobs and Wayne what about all the potions you guys use to improve growth and skin quality

hmmm....so you want me to share my secrets.

Quinton, there are lots of theories and stories, whether it works or not....that i cant tell you as i have not done a study on it.. I do believe that it makes a difference and it is fun "playing" around with it and i enjoy to see the disbelieve looks on the kois keepers faces when i tell them what i feed my koi...

In the beginning of the summer season (November) i treat my pond with some montmorolite clay for 3-4 weeks then i stop. You want the minerals in the water for the small growing koi, i then dont add any again for the rest of the summer season as i want my TDS levels actually as low as possible...so i hope that my kois absorb as much of those minerals as they can during that period. I only then start again with the clay when winter is here. I believe it helps them to recover their quality and luster from the harsh summer season.

I like to mix some hi protein eel pellets into my 3mm koi pellets that i give to my small tosai....Does it work? I think it does....cause they do grow like hell.

I buy some vital health Vitamen B Complex capsules and then i open about 10 of them per feeding and pour the contents over the pellet food. I then mix it up and let it dry for about 30min before feeding it to the kois. Vitimen B Complex is suppose to boost the immune system, produce more red blood cells...which means theres more oxygen in ther blood and it stimulates their appetite.

I sometimes mix honey over the koi food and then throw some clay over it to get it dry...the kois like it. I heard that honey works to bring the whites out...does it work? Well i guess we will have to wait and see at the koi show....

I sometimes also pour some garlic and olive oil over the pellets, let the pellets soak the oil up and then i cover it with the honey and clay mentioned above....this is suppose to work for skin quality and luster. Does it work....i think it does.

There you go, now i have given some of my secrets away. This is what we call "boere rate" You will have to take a dull koi that is not growing and tryi it on him....lets see what happens.

In the end i can tell you that 90% of the time my kois only get their normal pellet diet without any of the honey, olive oil and garlic. In truth i only use these things a couple of weeks like 4 -6weeks before the koi shows.

PS - This season i saw most of my growth on my koi in January - March and nothing worth mentioning in November - December

This is exactly the stuff I love - everyone has a magic potion and often it gets as ridiculous as tail of gecko and eye of newt - and borders on Koi-Sangomarism. Wayne the extra attention and effort will always pay off -I don't know if it's the extra things you do, or whether the added involvement fuels passion and you just care for the fish better - you dont miss wwater changes, you regularly do pond maintenence etc. Has anyone added anything else to thei feed?

the vitamin B addition is very interesting. Has anyone tried protein supplements?

QJones wrote:

the vitamin B addition is very interesting. Has anyone tried protein supplements?

Hi Quinton, look at this topic. Growing Jumbo Koi in small pond. Its a very long read but i found it well worth it.

This guy called Yotti only has a 12 000l pond but have huge jumbo show quality fish. He injects his fish with Vitimen B12 just before the growing season and feeds them fresh silk worm pape.



Have a look at is fish below. I got my idea of the jets at the feeding area to keep the location clean where i drop the pelletes from this topic aswell. I tried the injections but i think its too much of a rish to puncture the skin of each koi for no reason. Thats why i tried the supplements.

Wayne this is one of the most informative threads I have come across. I have seen it before - the amazing thing is the guy has 92 in a 12000litre pond with 6000 filter chambers. I am very interested in the B12 - i just wonder if there is a side effect and what the dosage is.

Got this off the net:
"A vitamin B12 overdose has long been considered safe and non-toxic. When B12 is taken as an oral dose, all of the B12 that cannot be absorbed is eliminated through the colon."

Hi,

A few points of discussion here – we need to think about what has been said and we must look deeper into this situation because I too have grown koi to 70 – 75cm in 18,000 litres in 4 – 5 years.

Vitamin B12 – there is more than enough Vitamin B12 in any good koi food. The amount of Vitamin B12 is minute. Sources of Vitamin B12 in koi foods are fish meals and yeasts. It is also a fact that fish can synthesise some Vitamin B12 in the gut through bacterial action. In some species of fish this is enough Vitamin B12 to supply the body’s needs without supplementation or injection.

Injecting a koi with vitamin supplements is ......... not a good idea. Again good koi foods have ALL the vitamins in the CORRECT levels and most good koi foods have higher levels of certain vitamins than what is required for basic metabolism. This is levels of vitamins after extrusion.

Supplementing good koi foods is literally throwing money away as these supplements would just pass through the gut into the pond. The body would only take what it needs and those needs have been established and included in good koi foods. The nutritional needs of koi have been well researched. If you want to treat your koi collection to a few fresh tit bits (and everyone has a different idea on what these are) then that is great. But feeding brown bread as a supplement is not good as brown bread is a carbohydrate. (must mention that as a koi keeper visited me this week complaining about a lack of growth. His diet for the koi collection – brown bread).

Vitamins can be considered the spark plugs of the diet and must be present in specific minimum quantities. A few years ago we analysed a number of koi foods. One had no Vitamin C in it at all and some had 16 - 17% protein which is lower than dog food.

The koi keeper who grew jumbo koi in a small pond – let’s look at it.

Firstly genetics – he had jumbo blood lines as well as very good blood lines. Then, if you look at the link posted by Wayne, he has massive amount of aeration and even pure oxygen going into the system. So this basic of koi keeping (oxygen and more oxygen) is taken care of but it has a hidden side. Then he turns the pond water over through the filter system about 4 or 5 times an hour. That takes care of the ammonia. He also has a current which the koi exercises against. This takes care of the body shape AND keeps to one of the basic of pond design – to move the water inside the pond.

Moving water dissolves the oxygen throughout the pond and dilutes the ammonia. The ammonia build-up it taken care of by moving the pond volume through the filter in about 12 minutes. So the ambient or background ammonia is reduced to virtually zero.

What we do not know is the frequency and amount of water changes he gives the large body mass of koi in the collection. Water changes and koi growth is a factor often overlooked.

I wonder how long that koi collection would last if there was a power failure? That number and size of koi would use up every bit of oxygen within a very short time and they would suffocate to death. I recon a power failure of 1 – 2 hours would see most of the fish die. This is the risk factor we all have when over-stocking our ponds

regards,
Chris