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 To Hell and back...

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costa j

costa j

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 4:21 pm


Hi Wayne, If I test a batch and it's positive the whole batch will get destroyed and the Breeder will be notified , and all my customers as well . That is why for the last 5 years I've only gone to 5 or 6 breeders in Japan, I always ask for their KHV certificates [ and believe me there are a hell of a lot of breeders in Japan] . So for me it will be easy to trace from which breeder the problem has come.
Sorry Wayne , and back to your question, yes all my prepaid customers will know who the breeder is, and they will be refunded all their money by me. And you can bet your bottom dollar I will be refunded by Japan.
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 5:18 pm

thanks.
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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 11:31 am

phew.....what a heated discussion.

Just to add......Costa is taking this whole KHV issue currently very seriously and is quite sensitive to it right now.....I speak to him almost daily because I need to keep my self updated with happening in and around the koi fraternity so can hear and understand what this means to him personally.

This is his livelihood and he takes huge pride in what he does. If he knows you have a pond that is not up to scratch he will not even sell you a fish, no matter what price you have paid.....I have seen this first hand.

People are talking about dealers and KHV etc etc, and I was keen on the naming and shaming.......however that is not always the case here...you get a lot of "cowboys" who are selling fish and rehoming\replacing\adding in etc etc, so can understand that it is very difficult to pinpoint when nobody actually knows how that individual is managing his pond.

I have not read a post where Costa or any other dealer has been pinpointed as having KHV.........however the dealers are still sensitive about this because now there is this talk....sales are going to slow down, this is going to affect their livelihood and it shouldnt because they are not the cause....but at the end they are the ones suffering the most because of some irresponsible indivuals\retailers.

So I can undestand Costa's frustration, and know that Neli perhaps asked a question about filtration on QT's etc.......just that all these dealers are expecting someone to mention their name even tho they may not have the correct information and int he end its to the dealers detriment.........swo even just mentioning a filtration QT thing here can have the worst effect because some people are just expecting that inevitable blame thread.........this is just a very trying time!!!!

All I know is that I would happily go to Costa today, buy any fish from him and add it to my collection......oh wait, I did that just over a month ago and all my fish are fine!!

I dont have a QT.....call me reckless.....I tried the QT thing a year ago and destryed 11 import tosai....so realised maybe that is not for me...lol.....no a joke...just funny to me Laughing

Hope this cloud passes over soon and we can move forward..........
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costa j

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 1:50 pm


Hi Cliff,

Thank you for those reassuring words.

Costa.
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 21, 2012 10:04 pm

There is David. Poor David! I wonder how he feels. I wonder how I would feel in his place.
Disappointed that people new but never warned him?
Cheated that the dealer is refusing that he is the culprit, fearing He will lose business , or even be asked to replace the Koi he destroyed?
Betrayed that his forum is not giving him 100% support??
Where does David stand? Is He totally alone? How does He feel? Is He the only looser here? He grew his Koi from little ones…They had a place in his heart…Now his heart is broken and his pond is empty.
The dealer is going to get his sick Koi replaced…by the breeder..The breeder will be affected by a degree If he acts fast and the issue is hashed up. Who will replace David’s Koi or mend his broken heart? Who will protect him, today and in future.
The Breeder ( who ever he is) sounds very arrogant and self-assured…Why not? After all He feels everyone is on his side…It is his God given right. After all it is hard for David to prove anything…and this latency issue…it is so handy! What right does David have…Does He have any? He is not allowed to even name the dealer who sold him the sick Koi.
The breeder makes millions, The dealer maybe thousands…David is left with nothing…for the dealer‘s and breeder’s fate are more important than his…
Meanwhile David’s fellow Koi keepers are also losing their Koi one by one…Mad at every one…
And every one says QT, QT and QT again! So the back is passed to David’s court again…Why he should presume that every Koi that He buys is sick?
Is He not entitled to receive a healthy Koi for his money? Or people are now used that the koi they buy is most likely to get problems, and got used to the idea?
Who benefits here financially from the transaction? Is that person that is selling not supposed to be responsible for the item He is selling… Why have We come to a stage where We have become accustomed to the fact that is OK or at list expected that the Koi U buy can be sick?
Can that be the other way around? That We should expect to receive healthy koi from a dealer?
Can it be done? Yes it can be done! Why is it not done? Financial considerations…
So For short, We are encouraged to put up with a lot, asked to, and if We are not willing to, reprimanded, shamed into silence, and most of the time We are the only losers on the end.
All of Us!
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Koi Land - George



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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 22, 2012 5:55 pm

Neli, you write this post as if you have all the facts in front of you . I hope you have, otherwise you are making dangerous assumptions.

Today, quarantine is part of koi keeping. When you build a koi pond you MUST add a quarantine pond, it's a package deal. If you don't quarantine and your fish get sick, you can blame nobody but yourself, NO IFS & NO BUTS.
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 22, 2012 9:08 pm

Darling,
I know I should QT and I have a QT...I QT for much longer than any one...The issue here is:
Why do We have to? Should We not expect to be sold healthy fish?
Should that not be the duty of the dealer?
Again it is a livin creature. But how likely it is to get sick between the vat of the dealer and your pond?
About my facts? Trust me on that one...I am far, but I get more info than many in SA...maybe because I am far and keep my moth shut??? Probably...
But I have lots of friends on the forum.
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Admin
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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 22, 2012 10:26 pm

Neli wrote:
Why do We have to? Should We not expect to be sold healthy fish?
Should that not be the duty of the dealer?

First and foremost, it is the duty of the dealer to sell only healthy fish, and to quarantine properly, and quarantine especially for KHV.

But as Koi Land said, there is also an obligation on the purchaser to quarantine. The fish needs to settle in at it's new environment, get used to your water, and gradually get used to bacteria (build immunity) from your pond and your current fish.

A dealer can sell you a perfectly healthy fish, but if you do not quarantine, you might loose the new fish, because it is not used to a certain bacteria pesent in your pond. This is the reason why you should put on or more of your main pondfish with your fish in quarantine before introducing your new fish to the main pond.

I agree with Charl, if you are prepared to take the chance putting any fish directly in yor main pond, you are taking the risk and can not blame anyone.

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Koi Land - George



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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 22, 2012 10:39 pm

Hi Paul, you beat me to it, I was just about to post something similar. Laughing
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Neli

Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 6:54 am

He he he!
I did not know this reason! But it makes sense!
Always thought it is to prevent spread of infections...parasites..
Thanks!
From now on I will be adding water from the pond, until they are used to my bugs!
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 8:07 am

Yes qt is fine, and should be done, but the hobbyist mostly have to rely on his dealer to do the KHV QT as he is mostly not able to do so.

Normal bacterial and parasite prevention I agree.
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 9:10 am

Neville wrote:
Yes qt is fine, and should be done, but the hobbyist mostly have to rely on his dealer to do the KHV QT as he is mostly not able to do so.

Normal bacterial and parasite prevention I agree.
That was my point, but I think the dealer should eliminate parasites too before he sales the fish..if possible bad bacteria too like infections...
Nev,
U have kept very silent about about where U got the KHV from, and I respect that....If U dont mind me asking can I get an yes or no answer for this question from U.
Did U get any Koi in the last 3 month from Koi depot? Is that where U got the KHV from? Just yes or no will do. I dont expect names in case it is not Lionel.
It is now in the open that He had KHV, so it will not do any harm.
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 9:13 am

Admin,
I posted something funny that my fish has...not sure what it is..It should be some kind of disease but what not sure. Parasite or virus?
No one is answering there so maybe U did not see it?
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Admin
Admin
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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 1:21 pm

Neli wrote:
Admin,
I posted something funny that my fish has...not sure what it is..It should be some kind of disease but what not sure. Parasite or virus?
No one is answering there so maybe U did not see it?

Hi Neli, I don't believe I have seen it. Kindly direct me to the post.

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Paul Viljoen
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 2:54 pm

No I did not get it from Koi Depot, that I know, and to answer your question would be impossible just go and read up about the disease.

It is a very unfair question to ask, especially on a open forum anyway.
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Neli

Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 3:55 pm

Thank U Nev!
The mystery deepens now! Who is the other person that has/had it and is keeping silent...not fair!
It will still come out!
Did not understand what U mean by:
and to answer your question would be impossible just go and read up about the disease.

Admin,
this is a link to my question:
http://koionline.forumotion.com/t2350-khv-versus-nodular-disease
Maybe i should open a new thread? But I thought it can be that thing...mentioned on that thread.
Admin,
may I have your email too if U dont mind...
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 5:46 pm

Neli, IMO it would be impossible to say where you got KHV from, how will you ever be able to prove that. We as hobbyists don't qt for KHV and until we do we just have to accept what the dealer does for us.
If you purchase koi on a regular basis you will have to just get set up to do your own KHV Qt.

The poor dealer always gets blamed but he is also just a link in the chain, we love him when he has lovely koi then we hate him when we think he may have KHV. I think it is not always fair. No dealer will deliberately sell you KHV fish I am sure. If one slips by well then so be it. You should have been able to pick it up in your own QT setup.

Naming a dealer is not the answer, we as koi people should change our attitude from accusing to assisting, the total attitude towards KHV is wrong. We are all looking for someone to blame when we get it instead of assisting and helping and taking hands in finding ways to avoid it. KHV is going to be with us for a long time still and we have to learn to handle it. Otherwise it will kill us as well.
Believe me I know I am right I have KHV. Currently. Stop this naming and shaming game.
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: To Hell and back...   To Hell and back... - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 8:00 pm

Neville wrote:
Neli, IMO it would be impossible to say where you got KHV from, how will you ever be able to prove that.yes ! U can know, but hard to prove it...especially when most dealers deny and blame it on latency. We as hobbyists don't qt for KHV and until we do we just have to accept what the dealer does for us.
If you purchase koi on a regular basis you will have to just get set up to do your own KHV Qt.
Dont U think the dealer should do that and it is his responsibility?

The poor dealer always gets blamed but he is also just a link in the chain, we love him when he has lovely koi then we hate him when we think he may have KHV.
Hating a dealer that has the misfortune of KHV is not good!I would feel very sorry for him! But I would be angry if I see that he did a shortcut with QT, and is just interested in profit and is not thorough with disease prevention.
I think it is not always fair. No dealer will deliberately sell you KHV fish I am sure. If one slips by well then so be it. You should have been able to pick it up in your own QT setup.
I dont think it is the duty of the hobbyist to do that...This the duty of a dealer!
But I dont think a dealer will sale me sick fish deliberately.


Naming a dealer is not the answer, we as koi people should change our attitude from accusing to assisting, the total attitude towards KHV is wrong.
Accusing is not necessary ...but all this secrecy makes KHV to carry stigma...and breeds mistrust...Khv is not hard to clear...disinfect and go forward....education is important and transparency too. We are all looking for someone to blame when we get it instead of assisting and helping and taking hands in finding ways to avoid it. KHV is going to be with us for a long time still and we have to learn to handle it. Otherwise it will kill us as well.
Believe me I know I am right I have KHV. Currently. Stop this naming and shaming game.
For me it is not a shaming game...but I for sure would like to know who had it...for I am coming in may to buy Koi...
If a dealer is hiding , I dont think I can trust him...But from Lionel I can buy...for He was honest!A bit late...but still honest.
I know he will do everything possible to eradicate it and prevent it from happening again.
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