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 The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.

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PostSubject: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:27 pm

I am so glad I am a Koi Keeper and not a Koi Hobbyist.

Keeper – guard, guardian, protector, a person who takes care of animals or is in charge of valuable objects.

Hobbyist – a person with a hobby, someone who does something as a hobby.

Hobby - an activity which someone does for pleasure when they are not working.

A Koi Keeper always asks them self’s first before a decision is made “is it in the best interest of the Kio’s wellbeing.”

A Koi Hobbyist always asks them self’s first before a decision is made “is it in the best interest of me” How much time can I save, How much money can I save, How much work will I have to do, Why must I pay so much money for a good quality koi and why can I not get it for free, Why must I quarantine my koi what will that cost me again, Who can I blame for my ignorance.

After all of this most Koi Hobbyist thinks I am Gods gift for the Koi Fraternity.

But I must say I know a lot of Koi Hobbyist that become Dealers / Breeders / ZNA Judges and not Koi Keeper’s and other will just stay Koi Hobbyist for the rest of there important life’s. Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, I , I, I, I, I , I, I, I.

Any person can see a Koi Hobbyist a mile away and if you think you are a Koi Keeper then please act like one.
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PostSubject: Hobbyist vs keeper   Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:36 am

Hi Collin
I think you're playing with semantics now, and believe that the difference is not always as extreme as you have indicated. Various definitions exist for each and every word in the English vocabulary, and implied meanings are attached to those words to suit our personal situation. The separation of the two terms is not only 'black or white'.
A hobby is a recreational activity, and I think that many 'hobbyists' are also enthusiastic'keepers'. The Oxford Dictionary defines a hobby as "an individual pursuit to which a person is unduly devoted". Many of us 'hobbyists' care about our koi, their well-being and the environment we provide for them, and are not merely interested in having a koi or two with which we can win at SAKKS National, resulting in medals and certificates which the 'keeper' can proudly display above the fireplace in his lounge. Maybe keepers too can ask themselves if it is really all about the koi or "me, myself and I"!!
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:27 am

Hi Jack

Thank you for your input. I don't disagree with you at all. It is my opinion every one including my self starts of as Hobbyist but as you progresses you must become a koi keeper. But sadly it does not always happen.

The idea of this thread is to get the so called 'koi hobbyist' to stop thinking about me, myself and I and to start thinking about the wellbeing of the koi first and if they can get that right then they are koi keepers.

In other words becomes a competent person in the koi field, you can not be come competent in 6 months time, the field is to complex.

How long have you been involved with koi?

Do you see jour self as a competent person in the koi field?

For example at least 70% + of koi hobbyists don’t own a microscope or don't plan in getting one but yet it is essential to have one.

Knowing you personally and knowing your passion for your koi I do believe you will become a competent person in the koi field in a few years time. I know you have learned a lot in the past few weeks and asked a lot of questions. When I look at you I see Bobby a few years ago always willing to learn more about koi and he haven’t stopt yet.

Keep it up you are on the right track.
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PostSubject: menslike natuur   Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:09 am

Ek verstaan hoe jy voel. In die ganse voortbestaan van die mensdom was die EK nog altyd eerste, homo sapiens is daartoe geprogrammeer vir voortbestaan.
Selfs die goeie KOI "keepers" doen dit om selfsugte redes nl. "Ek "met al my onsaglike ervaring en uitstekende oog het hierdie KOI gekies en "EK" sorg so goed vir my koi dat "Ek" het hierdie of daardie skou gewen ens.
Selfs as jy 'n koi koop vir sy skoonheid is dit selfsugtig "Ek" aanskou nou die skoonheid van KOI in my dam. "
Die mense wat duidelik altruisties vir diere sorg soos bv die SPCA kan ook gesien word as selfsugtig want dit laat hul goed voel om vir diere te sorg.
Die kuns is om met opvoeding hierdie selfsug te kanaliseer na ordentelike dieresorg. (wat ek vermoed meeste mense sal doen)
Die hele koi stokperdjie begin met 'n paradoks nl "culling". Daar word lewe geneem vir die oorlewing van skoonheid.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:57 pm

Hi Henk

Dankie vir jou bydra
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Mon Mar 08, 2010 6:09 pm

Hi Collin

You have raised some very important points. My understanding from what you have said, is that everything is about the life of koi, and how we humans care to look after the life of a koi. Keepers care deeply about the life of koi, hobbyists fit the life of koi around their own lives! I'm not sure what I am trying to say makes sense....but essentially, the life of koi should be and must be everything we do for them.

I'm sure I speak for 99.99% of all members on this forum and that is that they care deeply for their koi. It breaks my heart to see a koi suffering or in distress. Someone posted a "bidorbuy" link from someone whose pump stopped working and they wanted to sell the koi. When I read this I nearly called the police, the SPCA, the Anti-Animal Cruelty Legue etc etc - I wanted to get into my car, smack this person over the head with my wifes favorite cooking pan, and net all his koi and bring them home to my pond!

What I really like about this forum, is that there is debate, I can suggest something, something different, debate it, argue it. If I did not care about the life of a koi, I would not debate and argue, because at the end of the day all I am interested in is the wellbeing of my koi.

We also need to be careful about ignorance. I know there is no excuse, but that is the reason why people join the forum, so they can learn and then improve.

Well, that was my little input, maybe a bit too philosophical, but I think I made my point.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:37 pm

Hi Ed

Thank you for your input and yes I agree with you most of the members on this forum do love the koi that they own.

It is the balance of the forum members and the other 500 000 plus koi owners’ that concern me. I would also like to say that persons owning koi for a short period of time must first refrain them self’s from giving advice to other beginners.

I do understand that they are exited to shear what they have learned but a little bit of info are more dangerous then no info at all.

I.E.: On this forum a person will ask how does one treat an ulcer? The answer normally is something similar to - inject with Genta 50 or Baytril 5% and clean the wound.

The right answer would be: do a Bactria gram and identify the bacteria coursing this ulcer. Once the bacteria are identified then do an antibiotic gram and determine the correct antibiotic as well as the dosages to administrate...................................... etc.

I can also say that about 90% of the members on this forum don’t do a bacteria gram or an antibiotic gram on there own koi. I can also say that 80% of the members on this site never do KHV tests on there new koi that they have bought before introducing them to there ponds let alone quarantining there koi.

I think the question should rather be how much the owner loves his /her koi.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:09 am

Jissim Collin ... iemand het jou moerig gemaak. Jou bykans koelbloedige klasifisering van Koi eienaars laat my dink dat jy net mooi gatvol is vir die minder ingeligtes wat kopsere vir jou veroorsaak.

Ek het jou klasifikasie gelees en wonder nou ... waar pas ek in. Ek het my bes gedoen met die bou van my damme en ek het baie seker gemaak die water kondisies is reg. Ek het die stocking limits mooi uitgewerk en my vissies ingesit. 100 in en twee jaar later is daar nog 98. So ek dink ek doen iets reg want my visse groei en is gesond.

Ja ek het maar net gewone damvisse en sal nooit gaan skou nie. Ek skryf nie boeke nie en ek gee nie eintlik raad nie. Maar ek kan jou verseker dat ek erg is oor my damvisse alhoewel ek hulle nou nie eintlik name gee en uit my hand laat eet nie. As iets nie lekker is by die damme nie dan maak ek dit reg.

Ek het met klein vissies begin omdat ek hulle self wou grootmaak en leer soos hulle groei. Ek het damvisse want die kanse dat een of ander jagter hulle gaan skep is groot.

Nou waar pas ek in ... ek weet nie. Al wat ek weet is dat my visse my ure se genot verskaf en ek sal uit my pad uitgaan om hulle gelukkig te hou want hulle kan nie vir hulle self sorg nie.

Moenie 'n fout maak nie ... ek het groot bewondering vir iemand soos Bobby wat geen koste onstsien nie 'n koi hemel bou ... maar ek wonder ook maar net, die koi is mos maar net a gekleurde karp en in die karp se natuurlike habitat is hulle in modder water en ploeg die dambodems om die heeldag deur. Die blote feit dat koi vir skoue reggemaak word deur hulle in modderdamme te plaas sę vir my baie.

Ek dink net dat hierdie forum so baie mense trek wat net mooi wil uitvind hoe om hulle visse gelukkig en gesond te hou en dat die super koi gode hier baie het om met ons te deel. Maar om so kras lyn deur die populasie te trek en die aan die verkeerde kant van die lyn, jou lyn, sommer met 'n plank te wil slaan is bietjie rof.

Dis my opinie en my opinie alleen en geen diere of visse is beseer of mishandel in die opstel van hierdie relaas nie Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:57 am

I must agree with Colyn here....

Every single person that has koi in this world had to start somewhere and learnt their lessons along the way. This is how you become a master.

If everybody had to put their koi first, nobody would have any fish because they need to be out in their natural habitat and not in some show pond for you and other people to see. Ask any keeper/hobbyist/master or anybody, and they'll tell you that the ideal conditions for koi isn't 100% crystal clear water. Yet WE want clear water so WE can appreciate the beauty of the fish, guarantee you that this isn't what the fish wants. WE enter the koi in beauty pageants (koi shows) because WE want to show off our koi, once again stress on the fish. Is this what the koi would want?

My point here is that we all keep koi because we love them. I guarantee I love my koi just as much as everyone on the forum (maybe more because I won't sell them). Some people make a living from the koi business and will sell just about any koi in his possession if the price is right. Are you putting that koi first or your wallet?
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:34 am

Ah now we have four types ...

Koi Keeper
Koi Hobbyist
Koi Pimp
Koi Trafficer

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:19 pm

Hi Colyn

Moet nie bekommerd wees nie, jy is op die regte pad van die begin af hou net so aan.

Ek het geen probleem met enige persoon of hy nou skou of nie, 1000L dam of 100 000L dam het nie solank jy die dam kan behoorlik onder hou en die water gesond kan hou is dit alles reg met my.

Die probleem wat ek het is die ou wat 100 000L dam het met 'n .45kw pomp wat op 'n swembad timer loop want krag is baie duur, 2 sak sandfilter gevull met kat sand en een 20L ultazap hoe druk bio filter en miskien 'n 8 watt UV lig.

Dan sit hy 300 Tricolours in van so 50cm en vertel almal sy water kwalietyd is die beste in die land want sy water is groen en hy het gehoor hulle se dit is goed vir die koi as die water groen is.

Dan gaan die koi dood en dit is die laaste ou by wie hy van die 300 Tricolours gekoop het se skuld. Dan kom vertel hy jou hy het die beste vis in die land gehad en hy het nou 'n jong fortein verloor deur die ou by wie hy nommer 300 gekoop het.

En terwyl sy koi vrek op hoope vertel hy die volgende beginner wat hy moet doen wat after all hy is mos die beste in die land onhou.

Hi Chris

I don’t sell koi to stay alive, koi is my passion and not my soul income. I still go in to the office at least once a week. So no my koi comes first and not my wallet. Chris how does one become a Millionaire from koi farming ..........you start as a Billionaire and soon you will be a Millionaire.

I have refused to sell koi to clients before and I will do it again if necessary.

Quote :
Ask any keeper/hobbyist/master or anybody, and they'll tell you that the ideal conditions for koi isn't 100% crystal clear water. Yet WE want clear water so WE can appreciate the beauty of the fish, guarantee you that this isn't what the fish wants.

This is a good example thank you for using it. No it is not what the koi want but at least 80% of koi owners will tell you that there water quality is a ok due to the fact that the water in the pond is 100% crystal clear.
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PostSubject: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:26 pm

First of all I dont have a fishpond and dont keep fish yet,but I read the forum entries from A to Z trying to absorb as much info as possible on the subject study ,before taking the plunge and converting my 6x3x1.2M kidney shaped swimming pool into a pond.
I agree fully with Colyn and Chris Maritz post on the subject.
Colyn might want to add Koi Fancier to the list of discriptions previously mentioned.
As far as I can make out.
a Hobby is a activety or interest that is undertaken for pleasure or relaxation in ones spare time.
a Keeper, one that has charge or care of something.
Fancier a person with a special interest in something eg bird fancier.When I have a pond full of Koi I would prefere to be called a Koi Fancier. scratch
The forum on the following Japanese website is of interest as far as a Koi Hobbyist is concerne.
http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/5200 and 10533.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:03 pm

Hi Toppie

Thank you for your input
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:54 pm

Point taken Collin. I wasn't referring to you but was talking about dealers in general. You get people who put 100% to 400% markup on fish. They buy the fish today for R300 and a week or two later they want to sell it for over R1000. You can't say that they're not in it for the money.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:08 pm

Hi Chris

I agree with you fully, you do get dealers that only care about money instead of building the industry by selling affordable koi.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:38 pm

Collin ... dankie vir jou response en baie dankie vir die gees en trant van die response. Dis hoekom ek hier is ... vir daardie soort insig.

PS ... Nou verstaan ek ook sommer beter hoekom jy so moerig is en ek kan verstaan dat jy met reg moerig is want anders as ek ... word jy daagliks gekonfronteer met die uiteindes van die "slimjanne" se raad en advies ... as 'n slimjan my beetkry dan lig ek maar net my een wenkbrou en sę dankie terwyl ek in my kop smile en hom jammer kry.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:53 pm

Ja julle is reg.

Die spreekwoord se: Never argue with an idiot people watching might not know the difference. (as ek reg is).

Almal is maar redelik reg op die einde van die dag en dit is ook lekker om jou se te se ne.

Interesante onderwerp hierdie Collin.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:37 am

Hi Colyn

Daar is slimjanne net waar jy kyk, ek is nou klaar jammer gevoel vir hulle dit is tyd dat hulle wakker skrik en die rose begin ruik.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:19 pm

Collin wrote:
probleem wat ek het is die ou wat 100 000L dam het met 'n .45kw pomp wat op 'n swembad timer loop want krag is baie duur, 2 sak sandfilter

Ek het nou al 'n 3 of 4 keer hier in die kaap gehoor van manne wat hulle sand filter net vir 2 uur 'n dag hardloop. (Want sand filters is sleg) Die res van die tyd hardloop hulle of ander kleiner pompe of die sand filter word op bypass gesit.

Is nogal interesant dat hulle die sand filter net vir 2 ure 'n dag gebruik want hy is soo gevaarlik....in die meantime is dit wat hulle doen juis wat sand filters gevaarlik maak.

Ek kon nie verstaan waar die "teaching" verdaan kom nie....toe ontdek ek die koi keepers gebruik almal dieselfde tiepe spons filters.....toe kom dit uit die handelaar wat hulle die filters verkoop het leer sy kliente om die sand filter net nou en dan aan tesit (so se hulle)...want sand filters is gevaarlik....interesant is dit nie.


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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Is dit nie tyd vir die aanstelling van 'n Koi Ombudsman nie?
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:53 pm

Hi Jan

Ek stem saam maar hy moet al twee kante toe werk. Nie net na die oneerlike handelaar nie maar ook na die slimjan kyk.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:59 pm

I know a guy that attends to problems with koi, and have heard some horror stories about peoples ignorance. If they want to keep koi, they should make it their business to learn as much as possible.

One recent case was a call out because all the fish were dying.
When he got there the water was milky white. He asked, how long has it been like this, and they said oh, a week or so - since the fish spawned. ??? why did they not see to the water changes immediately?? People like this should not have fish.

And they were expensive fish as well, making me think they would just go out and buy more. No No
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Wayne ... dis die soort ouens wat ontbloot moet word want hulle misbruik die koi entoesiaste se gebrek aan kennis tot hulle eie ekonomiese voordeel.

Kyk ek het oor die laaste jaar of wat ook met a paar mense te doen gekry wat slegs bly leef omdat dit onwettig is om hulle te skiet Wink
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:49 pm

Ek moet se om koi aantehou is redelik tegnies en die learning curve is hoog. Vir meeste mense is dit baie meer gerieflik om 'n bottle groen goed in die water tegooi en dan sal al hulle problem verdwyn of om elke maand maar 'n nuwe vis of twee tekoop.

Almal wil die pragige vissies in hul tuin an hou maar nie almal het die passie, tyd of belangstelling om vir 2 jaar eers teleer nie....en kan mens hul kwaalik neem?

Ek self het vis tenke gehad en as die vissies vrek was ek aangese deur die local petshop om net 2 druppels van die bottel in die water tegooi. Dit was die opsomming van my mediese kennis van visse....maar eintlik is daar soveel meer wat mens moet weet. So jy kan ook nie die handelaar kwalik neem nie want hy wil nie heeldag dieselfde kurses staan en herhaal vir elke klient nie.

Ek sal so ver gaan om tese dat die mense wat rerig ernstig oor hulle kois is is almal op forums somewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: The difference between Koi Keeper’s & Koi Hobbyist.   Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:49 pm

Colyn wrote:

Kyk ek het oor die laaste jaar of wat ook met a paar mense te doen gekry wat slegs bly leef omdat dit onwettig is om hulle te skiet Wink

Ek voel ook so
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