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 My fish - Update.....all critics welcome

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Cliff



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PostSubject: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:04 am

Got a new camera yesterday so decided to take some pics of my babies,

All welcome to comment, just like all koi keepers you like to hear about what all people have to say or think of your fish.....not just necessary for the big namers (Paul, Pieter, Jaco, Ernst, Collin, Bobby etc) here to comment.

Ernst, what do you think of my Kohaku's???

Collin...What do you think of the progress of the Asagi, Showa & Shiro I bought from you??

I have another showa which I bought 2 weeks ago, still abit thin so have not posted him here yet, will do so in 3 weeks time after he has bulked up alittle.

Bobby....please note on the purachina, where you last noted it was abit thin, see how he has grown compared to the last pic where he was in the corner of the bowl now he's almost the entire length of the same bowl and that previous pic was taken in December.

Let me know guys

Gin rin Chagoi



Gin rin Shiro Utsuri (Sakai from Orient)



3 Step Kohaku



2 Step Kohaku (Momotaro from Pet Masters)



Gin rin Asagi (Sakai from Orient)



Gin rin Showa (Sakai from Orient)



Purachina Ogon



Kumanryo



Sanke



Please help identify this one, bought it because I loved the zip and the colour, fish just stood out to me so had to get it





thanks again
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:46 am

I like the first 2 only. I espacially like the gin rin shiro utsuri. The ginrin chagoi is a bit dark but body shape wise and quality it seem fine.

The last one is not bad but not my cup of tea. The rest all seem to have body shape problems but it could maybe be the angle of the photo.

The kohaku has a mature body shape of a koi 4-5 years old and not a young koi body shape. The skin, colour and pattern is nice.

With the asagi you can actually see what im talking about. It has a round body and then suddenly the body ends and the thinner tail sticks out. The red is overlapping on the tail that is a no-no for asagi as the red will flare up with age and then cover the whole body.

The pattern on the gin rin showa is a mess. Sorry to say but a real pond mutt in my book.

The Purachina Ogon is good.

The komaryu has armored scales (big scales) and are therfor a yorigoi.

The sanke is going to loose the Hi and it also has a bad body shape. Fat body and thin tail.

The body shapes can also maybe me from being kept in a small pond.

Something to remember is we are now critquing the kois but you get what you pay for. The other day in another post i listed all the things to look for before puchasing a koi but when working through the list one also has to be realistic and realise that you wont get all those things cheaply.

The only koi that i would buy in this list is the gin rin shiro and that depends on what its skin is like from a closer perspective. I like the full black head and the black pectorals. The shiro on the koi is not that great right now but i would take a gamble as that usually becomes better with time.


Last edited by wayneb on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:51 pm; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Fixed some spelling mistakes)
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Jan



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:03 pm

I guess the last one is a doitsu Kujaku.
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LJO42



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:05 pm

Hi Cliff

Too me they all look good, ive got chagoi wich looks exactly the same, although i dont like:

The shiru also has alot of black on the head i prefer them to have both black and white.

The showa though too much sumi and no white on the head but thats a personal preference.

I like the kohakus both look nice, the asagai and Purachina also both look good

Dont like the Kumanryo, seems messy, is it a doitsu ?

Have no idea what the last one is either .

cheers
lee
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Cliff



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:09 pm

Hi Wayne,

Some of the pics I noticed were taken as the fish was moving from side to side so can imagine why you say the body shape's are off.......back burn and leg burn doesn't help much with trying to get the perfect shot and still catching them.

Which kohaku are you referring to? and on the asagi are you saying it has a good or bad body shape?

I think the gin rin showa just needs time........I think it will break out nicely eventually.

With regards to small pond, all these fish are still small, the purachina is around 26cm's and he's the largest, think the kumunryo might be a little bigger but they're all still reasonably small and my pond is 8000lts so dont think it would have an influence on body shape...or am I wrong (pond is 1.4m deep)

Thanks again for your comments Wayne
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Cliff



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:14 pm

Well this guy is my favourite, did not want to post pics until he had bulked up abit, will post pics again in amonth after he's bulked up.

He's a momotaro showa, think he is so beautiful, he gets me all excited when it's time to go home from work!!!



What do you think of him Wayne.....one guy on koi bito thinks he's stunning and has a beautiful pattern
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:22 pm

Sorry missed one kohaku.

The 2 step is better than the 3 step. In my previous post i refered to the 3 step kohaku.

The asagi has a bad body shape. And the red over lapping on the tail and the dark black marking on the tail is an indication that this is going to be a very dark koi down the road. Its propably going to be black with red flaring up from the sides.

This new showa is a very good one for right now. The kiwa and sashi seems sharp. The shiro (white) is already pretty good. All the colours are out and are bright which might indicate that its a male. I would like to see a photo from head to tail. (Head being at the bottom)

Its still small but a very good quality specimen in my books and will propably take baby grand champion at most shows. Im not sure what its future potential will be like as most of the red pattern is isolated on the back and nothing wrapping it from the sides. Just too bad that he has no sumi on the shiro. Sumi on hi always appear dark but could fade with time. But right now it looks nice.

Your pond is fine and the depth is fine. Compare the body shape of this new showa to some of the other once and decide for yourself. The body must gradually go thinner on young koi - they must not have heavy bellies unless the photos was taken right after feeding. It might be the photos only you will know.


Last edited by wayneb on Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:53 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Added a comment regarding the future potential)
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LJO42



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:44 pm

Hi Wayne

So this would be a kindai showa then seeing its the new type with more white ??

Im not sure as you cant see clearly in the pic but how important is the presence of tejima stripes and or motoguro in the pec fins ??

Cheers
Lee
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:52 pm

Hi Lee

Now that im looing at it more indetail Im not actually sure if this is a showa.... affraid it might be a sanke. Shocked

The breeders have started to cross Showa and Sanke so its getting a bit dificult to say.

On Showa the black comes from below the lateral line...and on sanke the black is only above the lateralline and looks like stepping stones. If you look at this specimen you will se no black below the laterline but it has black on the head....the benching team will have to decide where to put it.

Showa has montoguru while sanke has tajima. If you look at this ones fins you will see some stripes thats tajima and not montoguru...

Kindai mean - more white. You also get kinda shiro utsuri.

I think not having either montoguru or tajima depending if its sanke or showa is a demirit at shows.

I think the benching team will bench it as sanke....but if one looks at it quickly and not indetail its a showa.

Wayne


Last edited by wayneb on Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Cliff



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:58 pm

Hi Wayne, on this showa, between the hi on the red there's alot of underlying black patches, i'm hoping this comes thru. I will take a few close up pics so that you can see the grey patches i'm talking about, theres some places where the shiro looks clean, but then on other places where the shiro looks grey from what seems like underlying black.

When this is the case does the sumi come out as the fish grows?

Thanks on your comments guys......looking forward to maybe entering this one into a show in the near future.
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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:05 pm

oh, one more thing....look at the showa's on the momotaro auction page......you can see that mine is definitely "family" of the showa's where the motoguro is concerned....will take better pics of mine where the pectorals are out and you will notice it better.....also notice how different the momotaro sanke's look to the showa's and you will probably be more convinced that mine is indeed showa

http://www.momotaro-koi.org/english/auction/2010_02_02/syowa.html
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:13 pm

Quote :
When this is the case does the sumi come out as the fish grows?

Ooh, this can become a indepth discussion. lol

Showa is a black fish....Sanke is a white fish.

Ill try and explain from what i have read but i am still learning myself.

In Showa the black comes from the dermis - a layer in the skin. So its the skin colour that grows out into the scale. In sanke the black is pigmintation is in the scales like red. White on sanke on the other hand is actually the skin colour.

So in young showa and shiros one usually see all the sumi as the skin is thin. A place where sumi always shows on showa is the head. As the koi starts to grow the skin thinkens and the black suddenly becomes underlying or gray. For the next two years which is the time that the koi grows the most in length the sumi disappears and this is when most people do away with their showa or utsuris. You also notice that the pattern of sumi is also constantly changing as the fish grows and diffirent areas develop.

After two years the koi starts to grow more in body mass and this is when the skin stretches and becomes thinner again. Now suddenly that ugly gray patchy showa gets its black back and turns into a stunning koi.

The fatter a showa or shiro gets the more difficult it becomes for the sumi (black) to come out.
I refer to real fat here and not body mass like in muscle.

Why does hard water bring sumi out?
Its not that it brings it out really - what is happening is that the hard water is not good for the koi and so what the skin does is it "tences" itself up - protecting itself against the hard water. That causes the black skin to be closer to the surface again and that causes it to grow out into the scales. The same is actually true about all the colours. If the pigmentation is only in the scale the hard water forces the pigment cells to fall flat to try and protect itself. Suddenly the colours look more vivid....but guess what you dont have any luster...

Colours and koi shows
A trick a few people do is to put their koi in hardwater with clay 3-4 weeks before a show. The skin contracts and colours come out more, then in the last two weeks before the koi show, they do alot of water changes to try and get the water softer (if your water is soft normally). In those last two weeks you start to get your luster back while still having some of the intense colours.

Sumi development at dealer mud ponds.
So you spent x amount of rand housing your koi at a dealers mud pond so that the "sumi can develop"....you bring your stunning showa back to your home after 1 year and guess what....it looses its sumi in a month or two cause the water is softer in your pond than in the mud pond.

On sanke sumi is there most of the time and just grows out into the scale like the red.

I hope this explains a few things. Anything more indepth than this is going to be difficult for me to answer.
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Collin



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:30 pm

Hi Cliff

I think you are doing really well! The body shape on the koi you bought are looking good.

Maybe a few thoughts:

Remember if you buy a Ginrin koi, the most important appreciation point besides the body shape is the Ginrin. The Ginrin on your chagoi, Showa & Utsuri is really good.

Your Kohaku is doing well - it might not fetch you Supreme Grand Champion but it is a good pattern.

I would like to see how your Asagi turn out, they have lots of potential.

Keep going!
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Cliff



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:39 pm

Thnks Collin...lastly which kohaku are you refering to?
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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:53 pm

3 Step Kohaku
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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:55 pm

Cliff wrote:
Bobby....please note on the purachina, where you last noted it was abit thin, see how he has grown compared to the last pic where he was in the corner of the bowl now he's almost the entire length of the same bowl and that previous pic was taken in December.
I agree Cliff her body has improved a lot in a short time. Well Done cheers

I am no expert on Koi quality but I would like to get feedback from you in 3 months time what happened with the Hi on the left hand side of the Sanke, the way I read the photo, the Hi could brake up, I will be happy for you to proof me wrong again. Embarassed

Drikus with all your experience and Koi knowledge why don't you comment more on Koi quality, you have been looking around enough to air some positive views. jocolor
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: My fish - Update.....all critics welcome   Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:37 pm

Hi Cliff, Na bobby genoem het van die platimu ogon het eerst die platinum ogon gaan vergelyk met die vorige foto op die ander thread wat jy gepos het en daar is 'n 200% verbetering in bodyshape op daai vis.

Die asagi, Miskien word hy tog nie so donker soos ek gedink het nie, joune is baie ligter as wat my eerste een was alhoewel jou rooi baie hoer op is. Ek het 'n paar fotos van my eerste asagi uitgetrek om tevergelyk. Hierdie ou koi van my is defnetied nie skou gehalte nie maar ek hou hom want hy is groot en een van my eerstes. Kyk hier vir jouself dan kan jy sien hoe hulle ontwikkel.


Jou Asagi 2010.


My Asagi 2006, nie sleg vir R30 by die kaapse skou nie. lol


My Asagi 2007, begin 'n grooter bak nodig kry nou...


My Asagi 2010, Verskriklik maer en spotty. Het nou net vandag uit QT uitgekom. Het 'n ulcer ontwikkel verlede jaar en Christie van Cape Koi het hom vir my reg gedokter. Die vis was van Oktober 2009 to nou vandag in QT. Hopelik sal hy binnekort beter lyk.
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Quinton Jones



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PostSubject: Koi Crit   Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:01 pm

Hi Gents

Mmm difficult slection. In truth the only fish I like is the Gin Utsuri - and I think this is the only fish with any longer term potential, great pond fish the rest and should make nice additions to your pond. well done...
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PostSubject: Koi Crit   Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:02 pm

Hi Gents

Mmm difficult slection. In truth the only fish I like is the Gin Utsuri - and I think this is the only fish with any longer term potential, great pond fish the rest and should make nice additions to your pond. well done...
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