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 Bobby's new pond

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ogidni

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySat Dec 12, 2009 9:46 pm

Congrats and well done Bobby - its inspirational cheers
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PostSubject: Bobby!   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 6:55 am

Net een woord: Finominaal! Bobby ons by Louw Diggers voel trots om deel te kon he in die konstruksie van jou pond. Van die begin af het ons geweet dat hierdie OUBAAS weet wat hy wil he. Wel gedaan en mag jy die vrugte pluk van goeie beplanning en harde werk.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 7:00 am

The first task for the day: Water Level = 100% result
Haggers re your telephonic inquiries about the Cosmo-dec product Marbliene.
Very early days but it has passed the first test of filling the pond with flying colors. Remember with this product I used a membrane around the window and all pipe areas as well as prostruct 67ns before and after plaster.
I now need to go and do a short shift at my workplace and will hurry back to do more checks.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 7:30 am

Tobie wrote:
Van die begin af het ons geweet dat hierdie OUBAAS weet wat hy wil he. Wel gedaan en mag jy die vrugte pluk van goeie beplanning en harde werk.
\
Nou kyk hoe gee jy my game weg, ek het die dammetjie spesiaal gebou om van die jonger teenoorgestelde geslag te impress. Nou sal jy die bedryf maar weer moet plat stoot sodat ek nuwe projek kan begin. Helaas al wat ek kry is daardie hardebaard Blou Bulle!

Nee wag eers my Vissies is mos ook meestal female. Al wat ek nou nodig het is vir daardie Sy Edele SF queen sorry king om ook iets te se om my dag verder te versuur. Laat ek eers aangaan my personeel se reeds, nou hoekom het Mnr kom werk.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 10:14 am

KoiCare wrote:
and can you also pop a floating thermometer in there so we can see what your water temp stablises at... with those "mooerse" fat walls and floor.... will be interesting to get an average summer and then winter temp.....
This morning at 10h00 my water Temp:

1. 10000lt pond at the back 23.4
2. QT on the balcony 23.6
3. New pond 24.3

PH on new pond 8.2 with Swimming pool tester will get new one tomorrow.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 11:32 am

Julie, You are aware of my philosophy that "more is better" and that this got me into shite more than once before.

Drikus is on his way for a vist and then at about 14h00 I am going to add 500g of PP to the pond. Sorry for again not listening but I need to make 110% sure that nothing that should not move don't move. This should nuke the bottom drain and return pipes of any unwanted and unwelcome visitors.
My reasoning is that the filters are not yet coupled and by Tuesday I will purge the water before connection. affraid
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:04 pm

Wayne I am having second thoughts about the volume of PP. Jonathan phoned and shite all over me, how long did yours last in the pond the last time round. Maybe I should listen to my mentor and keep it to 2-3gram per 1000lts No
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:07 pm

500g or 50g? affraid

I would not add 500g........... Shocked

If it were me.... I would add 50g..... then after 1 or 2 hours another 50g..... and then maybe tommorrow another 50g......

You do realise that you are going to quite possibly have horrid brown scum everywhere and no filters yet to remove it...and also you are not going to "nuke" the inside of all the pipes?

Also I am not too sure about the effect on the air domes....... I would hate it if you nuked the air domes.......

Bobby - I really think that it is too much..... can you not just go with 50g to start with and lets see how you progress........asablief!
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:12 pm

Hi LG,

Net toe ek dink jy het nou rigting in die lewe begin kry, met so 'n spoggerige dammejie en al, wil jy nou k@k aanjaag!

Vir wat vra ek jou, met trane in my diep blou oe...........wil jy nou PP, 500g nogal in die dam gooi? Is jy gesuip?
Die PP gaan net dele van jou dam vlek (wat jy nie gaan uit kry nie) en niks verder iets goeds uitrig nie!
Laat jou anderhelfte my skakel, sodat ek haar mooi kan vertel waar om jou te skop!
LOS DIE PP IDEE, DIT IS STUPID!

PS. As ek eendag daar by jou gaan uitkom gaan ek kaalgat in daardie dam swem (dit lyk so aanloklik) al is dit ook net om te bewys ek is 'n king en 'n queen nie!
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:15 pm

I used 1kg of PP on my 30 000 l pond - It stayed pink for 3-4 days and took a week and a half after that to clear up...dont do it because i did it.

I wanted to sterilise my pond. I wanted to kill EVERYTHING...it took me 2 weeks after the PP treatment to get rid of all the "PP dust" in the pond...Plus a 50% water change..

And then i added 1kg Virkon S in just to make sure that everything was dead.

You should be ok - new pond - no fish have ever been inside...why PP?

PP is going to stain that window - dont do it!
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:43 pm

Actually, I PP all new ponds on start up..... notice I say on start up.... there is various reasons for this... and I have always had good success and even quicker maturing rates on the pond.

REASONS:
1) I have seen many builders/plasterers/painters etc do incredible things that they think you did not see... ie: pee in the bottom drains....
2) The other main reason is that when any plastic/PVC etc is extruded or moulded it is coated in an oily film - a low dose of PP removes this film. (For those of you who have started up new ponds and seen a visible oil slick on the surface and ever wondered where that came from.....). So this includes all your pipework - your new bottom drains, weirs, trickle filters and media etc.

The general idea is that you use only enough to keep the water pink for 2 to 3 hours. What you will see (even on a new pond) is that the first low level treatment you do will literally go brown in a few minutes, sometimes you are lucky if it stays pink for 20 minutes (unless, of course you threw in so much as to nuke the filters in Australia as well.....)

On the window staining...... I can not see that the window would stain on a low level dosage..... there is lots of windows in operation overseas and they are the PP kings and queens......

I have seen Nexus stain - but if you get a cloth with hydrogen peroxide afterwards and wipe the plastic the brown stain comes off easily.... if you leave it eventually the media moving around removes the stain as well....

On a further note..... for those wanting to install moving bed filters.... if you do not PP the media the first time you use it (and Bobby is excluded from this as he hasmature media) the media 1) does not behave itself and causes you great headaches.... and 2) the media take far longer to establish itself. This has been proven through Evolution Aqua and for those requiring the literature please email me and I will send you the documents.

So in short - and through my personal experience - IMHO - PP'ing a new pond is important. But to do it properly and of course with caution.
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:51 pm

and Bobby... on a more technical note...... the other main reason why you do not want to use sooooooooooo much PP is because it will push the ORP level of your pond into oblivion.... the only way to reduce the ORP level to a level which is safe for your fish - ie: I would not want the ORP to be over the 300mv to 350mv range would be to literally add organics to your pond..... adding Hydrogen Peroxide further increases the ORP...all this does is remove the brown...but does not reduce the ORP..... Sodium Theosulphate will also remove the brown and this will not increase the ORP, but I doubt it will reduce it either.....

So, if you are going to PP - and please do get others advice as well, everyone here has started up ponds at some stage, and everyone has their own experiences on what has worked well for them - please do it properly then no harm will come to anything.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:51 pm

Now at least I know the keepers read the posts. Well done!

I received calls from Jonathan, Wayne and I cannot repeat even on an adult forum what was said by the SF king man at the time of his call. He also amongst some other foreign language threatened to come and swim naked in my pond to prove that he is a queen and not a king Sorry Pieter it must be the other way round!

Koi friends are even concerned that I might stain the window.

I have been converted !!!!!! Thanks guys for keeping me on the strait and narrow.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 12:58 pm

I warned you, I have managed to get Julie from KoiCare going, now is the time I better listen and forget about " more is better" affraid
Julie what about Virkon S at this stage without Koi in the pond?
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 1:03 pm

I would not do Vircon S - no need - IMHO.

But I would do a low level PP treatment (not today after youhave connected your filters and you are happy with everything) and burn off any organics and oil films etc - and again with the filters in operation and only enough PP to do this and not nuke your media.... I would also leave the UV's on..... the water should clear overnight and look like nothing happened the next day.... then you did it just and right and just enough...
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 1:24 pm

Hi,

I hate to agree with Seuntjie, but I think his got a point regarding the staining of the glass!

Now, I normally agree with persons carrying the same surname as me, but in this case as the surname first belong to her husband, I must disagree with Julie.
Quote :
I have seen many builders/plasterers/painters etc do incredible things that they think you did not see... ie: pee in the bottom drains....

So, you have seen a few willys over time. Embarassed But you need a hellova lot (pee) to influence 30 000lt of water!

Quote :
The other main reason is that when any plastic/PVC etc is extruded or moulded it is coated in an oily film - a low dose of PP removes this film. (For those of you who have started up new ponds and seen a visible oil slick on the surface and ever wondered where that came from.....). So this includes all your pipework - your new bottom drains, weirs, trickle filters and media etc.

5-9kg salt/1000lt will do the same job without any risk at all.


king
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Marius Bezuidenhout

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 1:37 pm

Helse pragtige dam Bobby . Dit was 'n prag projek en glo my ek volg elke post hier. Selfs oppad na die vliegtuig toe het ek ingelog en vanoggend weer na ek geland het. Dit is pragtig. Een van die dae gaan die views 10000 bereik. In minder as 'n maand as ek moet skat. Hoop die nuwe dam bring jou hope vreugde
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 1:40 pm

Now that I got everyone going how about the following for keepers to comment on.

I do not normally believe in lots of salt so how about 80 Kgs of salt just for the start up. 32 000lt water.
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 1:53 pm

LG,

Kom tog tot bekering en gooi 100kg in die dam! Daar is niks beter as sout vir 'n nuwe dam nie............trust me Rolling Eyes


king
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 2:20 pm

Quote :
So, you have seen a few willys over time. But you need a hellova lot (pee) to influence 30 000lt of water!

The pee, amongst other things... sweat, snot..... you name it.... it is just disgusting! So besides removing the oily films.... this is a bonus in knowing that there is none of that possible other stuff left either! Razz

The PP will also allow a blanket of algae to collonise far quicker on the side walls..... and your pond will mature and start up faster..... so will the media..... and this is proven.......


5-9kg salt/1000lt will do the same job without any risk at all.

I am not sure why you say this?

I have never known salt to be an organic oxidiser......

Salt can not be removed from a pond without water changes......

A koi's internal salt concentration is around 0.9% - so I would definately never add salt in at this concentration.... the amount of water changes you would have to do to get it down would be substantial.

The benefits of PP - used correctly - is that when it is done... it is done.... you do not need to carry out water changes to remove it...... there is no harm to the pond water...fittings etc..... and no harmful residues to remove afterwards.....

Once you add salt to a pond you are also stuck with the salt.....until you do enough water changes to remove it........

But I still do not get how salt is an organic oxidiser?
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 6:07 pm

My Dear Namesake,

First of all, never in the previous posts was there any mention about “organic oxidizers”
Why then bring it in as an argument?

Quote :
The pee, amongst other things... sweat, snot..... you name it.... it is just disgusting! So besides removing the oily films.... this is a bonus in knowing that there is none of that possible other stuff left either!
Salt will remove the oily films you mentioned.
The other stuff you mentioned is most unlikely as Bobby was present almost all the time of the build.
Even so, if the “just disgusting” stuff included a condom stuck into one of the pipes, nothing ......, but maybe acid would help in that case.
Furthermore, while there is no fish in the pond your argument regarding the salt concentrate is not applicable.

Surely Bobby will do some water changes before he will ad any fish to the pond, and as you know that water changes help regarding the Ammonia levels in a new pond, and salt with any nitrite spikes after the fish is added and the filters start to work.

I agree that PP is good when used for the right purpose and/or function and/or procedure, but definitely not in this case!
Please note that PP will stain any UV globe that is in contact with it, and the globe should be cleaned with methylated spirits to bring it back up-to standard.

I do feel that this topic regarding the build of Bobby’s pond should not be spoiled, and that this topic should not be discussed here any further!

Amen!
king
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koicare

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 6:46 pm

Dear Pieter

I think that this is appropriate to discuss here, seeing as it involves the start up of a new pond.... and I do not think it is spoiling the thread.... most people are here to learn and share experiences.....I think that is what the forums are all about...the sharing of knowledge... everyone is entitled to their own opinions at the end of the day, but if we fail to share knowledge we have gained over the years then I do feel that we fail every koi keeper out there who is trying to learn and become better koi / water keepers....... personally I would like to share my knowledge...I feel that some of the things I have learned are valuable to all...... please do not get hit up on the pee issue....as I have already stated that is just a bonus.... it is important to remove the oily films and here is the scientific explanations behind it........ I hope that this information assists others.....

Do we agree that biofilm colonises EVERY available surface area in a pond.... including pipework, side walls, floor - everywhere.....

If you do not - then click on the link below ...... and read further
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

We have learned that the nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate are found on every surface in the pond. This is correct. What we were never told is a remarkable fact - that the majority of bacteria in the water are found within a biofilm and are not free floating. Some 98 -99% percent of bacteria found in an aquatic environment survive within a biofilm surrounding.

This is significant as it affects many facts and myths regarding filtration on koi ponds. The biofilm houses not only nitrifying bacteria but also a host of other types of bacteria and microorganisms. The nitrifying bacteria do not seem to be in the majority within these biofilms.

"Microbiologists have traditionally focused on free-floating bacteria growing in laboratory cultures; yet they have recently come to realize that in the natural world most bacteria aggregate as biofilms, a form in which they behave very differently. As a result, biofilms are now one of the hottest topics in microbiology." (Potera 1996)

Scientists are studying the ways bacterial colonies form these slimy layers, which can be resistant to antibiotics, chlorine and disinfectants. Simply put, biofilms are a collection of microorganisms surrounded by the slime they secrete, attached to either an inert or living surface. Biofilms exists wherever surfaces contact water. Also researchers have now shown that a bacterium which attaches to a surface "turns on" a whole, different set of genes, which makes it effectively a significantly different organism to deal with.

SOME BIOFILM FACTS REVELANT TO OUR HOBBY.

1. Resistance to chlorine
Researchers have demonstrated that biofilm associated bacteria may be 150-3000 times more resistant to free chlorine and 2-100 times more resistant to monochloramine than free-floating bacteria.
Rinsing filters with tap water may not be as damaging as we presumed.

2. Resistance to antibiotics
Antibiotic doses that kill suspended bacterial cells need to be increased as much as 1,000 x to kill biofilm cells. As the antibiotics react with the watery slime they are used up. Unless the dosage of antibiotics is very strong it will not penetrate the protective slime biofilms. The levels of antibiotics needed to kill biofilms will kill the koi first.

3. Adhesion to smooth surfaces
According to Mayette (1992), "piping material that microorganisms cannot adhere to has yet to be discovered. Studies have shown that microbes will adhere to stainless steel, Teflon, PVC and PVDF (Kynar) with nearly equal enthusiasm." Smooth surfaces do take longer to have biofilms form on them but will inevitably have biofilm development. Surface structure does appear to influence the rate of fouling, but only initially. In general, smooth surfaces foul at a slower initial rate than do rough ones, but biofilm formation is inevitable."

4. Biofilm recovery (regrowth)
Bacteria associated with biofilms are much more difficult to kill and remove from surfaces than planktonic organisms. According to Characklis (1990), numerous investigators and plant operators have observed "a rapid resumption of biofouling immediately following chlorine treatment. Incomplete removal of the biofilm will allow it to quickly return to its equilibrium state, causing a rebound in total plate counts following sanitization."

If we do damage a mature biofilm it recovers rapidly. The time immediately after suspected damage must be treated with caution. Think of this time as a new pond - ease back on feeding and watch the water quality parameters. Do not be afraid to increase water changes to stabilise water quality until the biofilm has recovered.

In one researcher’s tests -"re-growth of the biofilm started after 2 days and was back up to equilibrium levels after 20 days".

5. Secondary colonizers
Biofilms are a composition of billions of bacteria cells, fungi, algae and other living microbes as well as the organic slime they produce.
The biofilm traps nutrient molecules and also snares other types of microbial cells through physical restraint and electrostatic interaction. These secondary colonizers metabolise wastes from the primary colonizers as well as produce their own waste that other cells then use in turn.

6. Can biofilms survive out of water?
Biofilms can stay active for days and even weeks when out of the water. They can remain active for longer periods if they are kept damp. If you are ever contemplating building a new pond or extending you existing one then save the media. There are valuable bacterial colonies on your media that will seed your new filter. This natural seeding will start up the new system remarkable quickly.

7. The downside of biofilms
Bacteria we need and bacteria that cause disease problems survive and are protected within biofilms.This explains the difficulty we sometimes experience in eradicating bacterial problems with our koi.

OK - so we agree now that biofilms exist on every tiny inch of surface area in a pond.... AND we can agree that they will eventually colonise even the smoothest of surfaces...... they will just take longer.....

Ok- here is where the PP trick comes in.......Koi Carp July 2006....

Healthy bio film or activated sludge?
"This journey started three and a half years ago when we were comparing Japanese matting with Kaldnes k1 moving bed technology, in combination with the Answer. The test set-up was three identical ponds with the same amount of koi that were getting exactly the same amount of food every day. The biological results were quite surprising for the Kaldnes moving bed – they were actually too good to be true. The nitrate removal rate was very high compared with the Japanese matting, and this lead to many discussions because the total surface area was the same. Also, sometimes the koi needed to be treated and all the ponds were given exactly the
same dose. We saw that often, the treatment was given a biological boost by the Kaldnes moving bed. After some thorough investigation, we understood why this difference was occurring. It surprised us, but in the end it was logical.

Bio Film Development
The discussion lead us to bio film development and how to generate it. So we had to go back to the basic science of bio film generation. In diagram 1 you can see a schematic diagram build-up of a bio film. The most important layer is the organic macro molecules that act as a primer layer for the Extracellulair Polymeric Substances (EPS), or in other words, the bio film. Without the macro molecules you cannot bind the bio film to the media. In picture 2 you can see a macro molecule on Japanese matting. As you can see, there aren't many macro molecules on the surface of the Japanese matting, so we were asked ourselves, 'why this is happening?'. We used some special techniques to find out... As you can see in pictures 3 and 4, the Japanese matting is glued together to create a stable matting. We were interested to find out what kind of glue they used. To find out, we had to prepare the media for a Scanning Electronic Microscope where
we could use an ESD technique to find out what the glue was made of. ESD is a materials analysing method that gives a chemical combination, by percentage, of the glue used.

In picture 5, by point A, we measured the glue and you can see the result in diagram 2 – this was interesting to us. In this diagram you can see many chlorine combinations, which are the reason why the macro molecules don't like to grow on the Japanese matting. In picture 6 you can see there is no bio film on the Japanese matting. So we analysed a piece of Japanese matting that had been treated with a lot of chemicals in a filter for many years. We used a confocale microscope where the sample is immersed in water – in this picture 7 you could see clearly that the glue was 'blown up' and would release chlorine combinations into the water. We showed the results to several microbiologists who concluded this specific Japanese matting could not hold or create a bio film, and is actually a mechanical filter that holds activated sludge as you can see in picture 8. This was quite shocking but was the correct explanation why in our test the Kaldnes moving bed was performing much better than the Japanese matting.

There was biological performance in the Japanese matting filter, but it was actually activated sludge. This means that in the waste the bacteria would do their job for us, but this could also harbour sulphate reducing bacteria (SRB)that could make our koi ill. We even suspected this could be one of the reasons why koi develop Hikkui in older systems that have Japanese matting as their core filtration. However, we had to check another type of Japanese matting to find out if it was using a glue too – this was not the case as you can see in diagram 3. But there was not much bio film development there either. So, we believe that Japanese matting is a mechanical filter that holds activated sludge that will do the biological action, however, if you clean the media, you would loose much of your bacteria.

Primer Layer
As we could see in the Japanese matting, it was very difficult to get the first layer as shown in diagram 1. The first layer is organic macro molecules that act as a primer layer for bacteria to grown on. Without this it is impossible for them to attach to the bio media. This primer could be generated in just one minute or it could take longer if the surface of the media is not clean.

However, each pond's water is unique and has a different chemical balance – this could mean a long waiting time to generate this primer. So, the question was, 'how quickly we can generate the primer layer?' Some people used caustic soda to clean the K1 but the results were no better than the non-treated K1 and some dealers had high nitrite values, which you would not expect when using this method of cleaning. The other values where fine. It proved a complicated question because, although
this was not common, some people also found very high pH values. So we asked dealers to use live bacteria cultures to generate a bio film more quickly. It produced some better results and the nitrite problem was reduced, but not to a level we were happy with. The only
reasonable explanation was the primer was not 'working' yet and this is when we thought of using potassium permanganate to create the primer layer quickly on the bio media surface.

The PP Test
We encouraged people to do a blind test using potassium permanganate. In this test we used 40 gallons of tap water with 50 litres Kaldnes K1 media and one teaspoon of potassium permanganate crystals and aerated it all. And after this it was rinsed twice with clean water. Normally, it takes a few days to get K1 media to sink into clean tap water, but with this method it was taking a few hours. The same dip was performed with the Japanese matting we were using in the filter system. We did the same setup for a second test, but here we used live bacteria (Cleartech Filter Balance Pro) to help the start-up instead of using the potassium permanganate dip. The tanks used in the test were identical, holding 500 gallons of water with five koi 10in-long. The first chamber had Japanese matting and the last chamber had 50 litres of Kaldnes K1, aerated with an Airtech 40. The test results can be seen in diagrams 4 and 5, where you can see the ammonium peak in Tank 1 was not reaching higher then 0.4 mg/l.

However, in Tank 2 the peak was reaching almost 1.5 mg/l on day five.
The nitrite peak was starting in Tank 1 on day four – it was higher than 0.38 (maximum reading of the colorimeter) and was coming down on day 10. But in Tank 2 the peak started on day 6 and came down on day 18. This test made it clear that if the filter was started correctly, the nitrite problem was solved. Adding the live bacteria also helped to reduce the ammonium peak. So, now the important question was, 'why was the caustic soda not creating a good primer layer?' The reason for this was
quite simple, if you use it, even after cleaning, it leaves a thin film on the surface of the bio media. This thin film has a base soap effect – if you clean a microscopic slide with caustic soda, when it dries you will see a white film, which means the surface is not clean. This caustic soda residue of gives off a chemical effect that dissolves the EPS layer that the bacteria need to survive, and it also means the macro molecule film (primer) can not be developed. But potassium permanganate doesn’t have this problem as you can see in diagram 4 and 5.

Bio Fouling
When starting a new filter we want tocreate a bio film that is very thin in the beginning – most of the time this would be an aerobic process. However, when the bio film becomes thicker, the oxygen diffusion ability is going to be lower, therefore an anaerobic zone is generated in the bio film. Diffusion of oxygen is a very slow process and the bacteria will consume a lot of it. So, in the aerobic zone we will have nitrification and in the anaerobic zone we will get denitrifcation. But bio fouling is a biological process in the bio film because, in nature, other animals would be eaten by other living creatures and in this case, diatomeen and zoo plankton
would eat bacteria, and rotifers would feed themselves again to these living
creatures. Diagram 6 shows this. To prove this to you, Jan took a very special picture of the Kaldnes K1 media in situ where you can see the macro molecular film (primer) and the white spots in the water are diatomeen and plankton. This picture 11 is quite unique and demonstrates that there are a lot of living creatures in the media. In picture 12 you can see the plankton that was found in this K1 media.

EPS
If we feed our koi lots of food, we generate more waste which is the food source for the bacteria that generate EPS (Extracellulair Polymeric Substances) (i.e. bio film). If we generate more EPS we create a thicker bio film. In picture 12 you can see the intense red part that is the bacteria colonies with the transparent EPS, which is the food source for the bacteria. In picture 13 you can see a Scanning Electron Microscope image of these bacteria. If we analyse the EPS layer with an analytic REM/RMA (advanced methods for analyzing living tissue or materials) methods we can find the following elements in these substances. The most important ones are phosphorus and Kalium, which are needed to keep the EPS alive and are the food source for the bacteria.

PP treatments
So, after the big test with PP treatment to get a clean surface and a stable bio carrier material, we could now generate the macro molecular film (primer), needed as a sticky base for the bacteria.

However, most of us would say we use PP to kill our bacteria, not help it thrive. To prove it works we have carried out some tests on a live system where we used Japanese matting and Kaldnes K1 media. In this test, we counted the amount of bacteria in each hour of the test and the results are quite shocking! We found the Kaldnes K1 media recovered quickly after a PP treatment but it was much slower in Japanese matting. So again, we had more questions then answers... Firstly, we looked at the chemical reaction after a PP treatment and we found the end residues are actually a nutrient for the bacteria and are the same as we have found in the REM/RMA. This was the reason the filter had a boost after a PP treatment. For the Japanese matting this result was less obvious and it was taking more time to recover from the treatment.

We think now that this is because of the protective surface area inside the Kaldness K1 media.

Conclusion
It is now clear that when you start a new filter that uses Kaldnes K1 moving bed, you should first treat the media with Potassium Permanganate as this will speed up the maturation process. If this is not fast enough, you could always add some live bacteria, such as the Cleartech Filter Start products, with some extra filter start tablets. We believe what is written in many books about nitrogen conversion is not correct and that in the bio film things are happening that we did not know about a few years ago. The methods used to analyse bio films are becoming more advanced and we know now that 22 different groups of bacteria are involved in the protected bio film created in the K1. We believe protected bio films are the key for successful koi keeping as they mean less health problems for your koi.

Activated sludge is a home for SRB bacteria that could generate health problems and does not create a stable protective bio film. After three and half years of research it was now clear to us that Kaldnes K1 moving bed had much more to offer than we first thought..."


Ok - so given the above can you see how quick your pond will mature and grow bio-film on every available surface if you PP the entire pond....
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albie

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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 7:59 pm

Well, the water is in and should be relatively clean, despite the pee, so why not throw 2 kamikaze youngsters in?? Add perhaps some Na thiosulphate, but I would think that the chlorine is gone by now. And as I said previously, our council generously put salt in our drinking water!!
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 8:20 pm

WHY THE PANIC????Question??
Bobby gooi net sout as jy moet en los die F@^(n dam en kyk wat gebeur.
Jy is mos nie gedruk om jou visse in te kry nie. Sekerlik ken jy die storie van die ou en die jong bul.
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Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 EmptySun Dec 13, 2009 8:45 pm

Julie,

Well I never!

One thing is for sure, I will never go to war with you by my side.............hell, you will miss the enemy target by miles! Even worse you could see the enemy as friendly’s!

I appreciate your return post. It is most interesting!
But, the question I ask myself is, is there any bio film present in Bobby pond at this point of time?
If the PP does boost the growth of organic live, is it really necessary to risk the pond “structure”by doing so?
I have found over years that one should leave nature to stimulate it self.

To me the following is more essential:
Take a water sample and record the pH, alkalinity and hardness as a reference. (One can also test the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels for future reference). Switch on the pump to oxygenate the water and assist with the de-chlorination process. (Town tap water may be chlorinated for human health reasons and it will kill fish.)
You may not be one for all this testing, but at least test the pH! A new pond with a pH 9 or higher has killed many a fine specimen of Koi.
One or two days later test the pH, alkalinity and hardness again. One can now establish the effect the pond has on the water.
pH 6.5 – 8.5
Alkalinity 20 – 150 mg/l (as CaCO 3)
Total Hardness 80 – 300 mg/l (as CaCO 3)
Ammonia 0 mg/l
Nitrite 0 mg/l
Nitrate 0 - 50 mg/l

Once the basic inorganic water quality is acceptable, it is time turn to the need of the fish you intend stocking up with. The bio filter needs to be “started” or primed and that is a slow process that can take a month in cold conditions. A biological filter is populated by living organisms that oxidizes toxic fish waste (ammonia) to relatively harmless nitrates.
It is important to realize that these organisms depend on the ammonia for their sustenance and a biological filter cannot become populated without “their food.” So running the pond for a week or two, or even a month, in the absence of fish will do nothing for the maturation of the filter. On the other hand, stocking up with too many fish may soon lead to health problems, as the “immature” filter cannot cope with the ammonia load.
First option is to put only a few fish in the pond and record the ammonia and nitrite levels at least twice a week. You will notice the ammonia rise, reaching a peak in a few weeks time and dropping down to zero. This indicates that there are sufficient bacteria to cope with the ammonia excreted by the fish. Should, during this time, the ammonia level reach toxic levels (>0.3mg/l) partial water changes should be made to dilute the ammonia to acceptable levels
But it is not the end yet. Following the ammonia peak will be a nitrite peak that can be just as hazardous for your Koi. So keep an eye on that.
Once you are sure the bio filter is handling the fish load, you are ready to introduce more fish. While yet again keeping an eye on the ammonia and nitrite.
If the nitrite is to high ad salt ( 3kg/1000lt) to reduce the nitrite spike.

Please read the article by Chris Neaves:
Filtration Facts and Fiction You MUST Know - Slime City

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Furthermore:
The biggest killer of koi is undoubtedly the knock-on effect of unsuitable water quality.

Koi is no more than a domesticated carp (Cyprinus carpio). Unlike their wild cousins that are much hardier, koi has been subjected to inbreeding to such an extent that the immune system has been compromised. Koi is therefore much more affected by their environment.

The whole concept of our hobby is not only the ability to keep koi, but the ability to keep the water and pond system healthy. Our systems are based on recycled pond water and during the recycling process; a lot of things happen that has a definite influence on the fish.

Nitrogen Cycle
I think by now, most hobbyists understand the nitrogen cycle. In short, the fish excretes waste products’ trough its gills and urine. An accumulation of these waste products is toxic to the fish especially ammonia. Ammonia is more toxic to fish the higher the pH gets. Colonies of Nitrosomonas bacteria in the filter system convert the ammonia (NH3) to nitrite (NO2). Nitrite is also toxic to fish but then Nitrobacter bacteria converts nitrite (NO2) into nitrate (NO3). Nitrates are relatively harmless and fish can tolerate reasonably higher levels of it.

Ammonia in Ponds Ammonium (NH4) is released into the pond water through urine and also through the gills of the fish by means of osmosis. Ammonium can also accumulate from the decay of fish tissues, and food and other organic debris derived from protein. If the water has a high alkalinity, one of the Hydrogen ions from the ammonium is stripped off, leaving an ammonia molecule (NH3), which is highly toxic. As pH rises, Ammonia becomes more toxic. For example, when the pH is 7 and the ammonia is 0.25 ppm (particles per million), it is acceptable. With the same reading of Ammonia at a pH of 8, the fish will start to stress and complications may start. However, an ammonia reading of 0.25 ppm at a pH of 9 is deadly to fish. Ammonia can have a number of detrimental effects on pond fish such as reddening of the skin, disrupting the ability to regulate water and salts and it can damage the delicate gill tissue causing swelling which can hinder the absorption of oxygen from the water. The lamellae may also become fused and covered in mucus making the absorption of oxygen more difficult.

Dr. Eric Johnson, in his book Koi Health and Disease states:
Quote :
“If a fishes gills are damaged, it cannot excrete ammonia sufficiently. It gets worse if the ammonia level in the pond or tank is high, the fish cannot excrete the ammonia through the gills against this gradient. So the ammonia stays in the fish and kills it. Do not let ammonia accumulate in the water! Fish suffering in water with high ammonia accumulations will isolate themselves, lie on the bottom, clamp their fins, secrete excess slime, and are much more susceptible to parasitic and bacterial infection. Ammonia has been shown to depress the immune system (via the cortisol stress-response on vitally important immune fighter cells) at chronic low levels, below 0, 25 ppm.”
If the water becomes polluted with ammonia, regular partial water changes need to be effected to reduce the concentration. You must however determine the cause of the problem. My advice is to change water, reduce feeding and expand your filter system if it is already an established one and the ammonia problem persists. You can also reduce your stocking level in the pond.

Nitrite in Ponds
As the ammonia in the pond begins to reduce, the next problem the koi keeper will face is the secondary break down products, nitrite. It will begin to increase and this is also toxic to fish

Nitrate will irritate the skin and the fish will start to flash, gasp and jump. The symptoms are much the same as with parasites and you should eliminate the possibility of nitrite toxicity before you treat the pond for parasites. Nitrite also has a more serious effect on your fish. As it accumulates, it will bind with the red pigment in the blood, thus preventing the blood cells from absorbing oxygen from the water. Once this happens, the gill filament will turn brown. This is commonly known as “brown blood disease.” Normally fish that dies of nitrite toxicity, die with their gills widely flared.

Lower the nitrite levels with partial water changes and add salt immediately to 3 kg per 1000 liters to inhibit the further uptake of nitrite into the bloodstream. I do not know of any treatment to reverse the binding that has taken place.

Nitrate in Ponds
Nitrate was once regarded as not especially harmful to freshwater fish but as a potent plant fertilizer that can contribute to the growth of unsightly and unwelcome algae, such as green water or blanket weed. Now, when fish are sick, and you know the pond has been set up for a long time, you can bet Nitrate levels are part of the problem. Nitrates are an under-estimated fish killer. Once dismissed as harmless to koi information now exists to suggest this is not true. Scientists initially evaluating Nitrates as a toxin did not test their subjects long enough. Nitrate accumulations cause dilation of the veins in the fins and other health problems. Nitrates may actually be the most important measurement you make in the established pond because it sets the cadence of the water changes you should do. Never let your nitrate levels exceed 100 ppm or illness and vulnerability to disease will be the result!

Alkalinity and pH in Ponds
The pH of a pond is largely dependent on the pH of the make-up water in the surrounding area and therefore it is very difficult to try to control this parameter artificially. Koi can adapt to pH within the safety range and only very experienced and brave hobbyists should fiddle with it. I have seen many koi deaths because eager owners tried to adjust the pH but did not take all the factors into consideration.

pH is the measure of relative acidity and alkalinity with 7 being neutral. pH below 7 is acidic and above 7 is alkaline. A pH measurement uses a logarithmic scale which means that a change from pH 7 to pH 8 is actually a ten-fold increase. This is why a small increase in pH can have quite a dramatic impact on your koi. Koi is happy in water with a pH anywhere between 6.8 and 8.5.

Alkalinity is the carbonate and bicarbonate concentrations in your pond water. Alkalinity is a measure of the ability of a solution to neutralize acid without changing the pH. It both controls and maintains water pH. Carbonate hardness is measured in degrees (dKH), parts per million of calcium carbonate (ppm CaCo3), or milligrams per litre (mg/L).

Alkalinity is not the same as pH because water does not have to be strongly basic (high pH) to have high alkalinity. Alkalinity is related to the amount of dissolved calcium, magnesium, and other compounds in the water and as such, alkalinity tends to be higher in "harder" water. In an established pond, the ideal Alkalinity measurement should be around 100 ppm. Readings from 50 to 200 are acceptable.

Alkalinity is naturally decreased over time through bacterial action which produces acidic compounds that combine with and reduce the alkalinity components.

Ponds with vinyl liners or of fibre glass construction tend to show a decrease in alkalinity over time and may need supplements to maintain an acceptable level.

Established ponds will normally maintain their equilibrium pH value if sludge and decaying organic material are routinely removed from the pond by backwashing the mechanical filter, and biological converter. Scheduled water changes (10% per week for a small pond, less for larger ponds) are also helpful.

pH can be very dynamic. The pH can change overnight. In particular, the pH is prone to fall, and "crashes" are quick, and fatal. Interestingly, many people say they checked the pH last week, and are surprised to find that the pH can change overnight. In simple terms, the pH is supported in range by the carbonate activity of the water and when the carbonates are exhausted, or overloaded, the pH plummets to 5.5 and kills filter bacteria and fish. In other situations, the pH can glide downward very slowly over months and thus your resident fish can survive a low pH but the new fish you keep buying perish quickly as they enter the water with a very acid pH.

Check the pH regularly, and also, to get a grip on your 'safety net', measure the water's carbonate activity as Total Alkalinity as well.

Raise alkalinity by adding Calcium Carbonate, concrete blocks, oyster shells, limestone, even egg shells or a pH Buffer.

I think this is what new pond owners should know!
.......................................
Jan,
Ek moet met jou daar saam stem!

king
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PostSubject: Re: Bobby's new pond   Bobby - Bobby's new pond - Page 18 Empty

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