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 Weskaap Skou Datum 2010

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bobby

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PostSubject: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 09, 2009 2:01 am

Die vergadering het laas week onder andere 'n alternatiewe datum vir die Weskaap 2010 skou bespreek. Die judges het ook genoem dat ons dalk te vroeg geskou het en dat die visse nie "gefinish" was nie.
Durban skou vind ook einde Julie plaas

Wat is die gevoel (voor en nadele) om die Wes Kaap se skou in Augustus 2010 te hou?

Neem deel, gee julle mening, en stel 'n datum voor!

Please voice your opinion on having the Western Cape Show during August 2010

Ons May skou was die wonderwerk tussen twee reen naweke aan beide kant.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 09, 2009 10:02 pm

Koi shows should not only be about when the koi will look at their best. A koi show is also an opportunity to develop the hobby and introduce it to the public, and give an opportunity to the hobbiest to do buy koi.

During August, the immune system of the koi is at its lowest. A lot of people do not want to add new koi during winter because of the low immunity.

It is also better to buy koi at least two weeks before winter, to give them an opportunity to settle into their new environment before winter, while their immunity has not slowed down yet.

The immunity aspect goes for the show fish and the dealer's fish for sale.

I have encountered that the interest in koi in general are much lower during the winter months. Sales are much lower during winter. Shows are not about dealers, however, without them, the shows can not be held. The more money they make during shows, the more they will be prepared to pay for stands and sponsors, and they can not be neglected.

Much more people will attend the show while it is still fairly warm.

During May, June, July and August, you are running a fairly large risk to have rain, which will keep visitors away and be quite inconvenient to the participants.

In view thereof, I believe April is the best time, but not during school holidays when people might be away on holiday.

The best weather in the Cape is during March and April. More people from other areas might come to the show because of the nice climate during March, April.

Furthermore, the 2010 soccer world cup activities should also be considered.

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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 10, 2009 6:26 pm

Some very valid points posted by admin.

Please check rainfall reports on web to assist with opinion

http://www.weathersa.co.za/Climat/Climstats/CapeTownStats.jsp

http://www.freewater.co.za/Cape%20Town%20Rainfall%20Patterns.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 10, 2009 7:04 pm

Herewith some more info from the judges re the logistics of the SA show schedule.

1. Southern Cape Show - March
2. Free State Show - April
3. Gauteng Show - March/April
4. Western Cape - May ??
4. KZN - July

Are we then stuck with the risk of rainy May? or dare I say September with more risks as tabled by admin.

The WCC would prefer to provide the Dealer with a good Selling opportunity and also make sure that the risk of the Koi on show is well managed.

Any other suggestions?
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 10, 2009 8:38 pm

I believe that the health of the koi should over rule any argument. In April I still had water temps of over 28 degrees. We also had some heat spells where the day temp ran over 34 degrees in Cape Town. A koi show with water temps this high will result a some fatalities and we are going to run into some serious trouble.

We are in a double wammy here. We want to have a koi show when the koi dispaly their best colours and when the skin is at it's best. This means lower water temperatures of around 15 - 16 degrees for at least one month leading up to the show. We also have much better water quality in the unfiltered show ponds at these lower temperatures as the koi arn't that active. Other side of the coin is that their immune system is low in the winter. However I believe this statement relevant for areas where people actually experience real winter. I don't know the answer but perhaps a koi health expert can help here - At which temp is the immune system of the koi at it's lowest and do we actually run a risk by showing it?

Shows are very stressfull for koi and they will always have some form of reaction to the stress. When we had the show in August last year I had no serious issues afterwards and with the water warming up it was easy to deal with a few cuts and bruises here and there. The day temp was also really pleasant for the visitors and the koi were at their best.

So for August Spring is around the corner and I find that people are more interested in koi leading up to the summer that going into the winter. So it actually makes more sense for a dealer than a May show. I agree June/July is a no no for us as we will get just as wet as our koi.

Pending the view of a health expert I think mid to late August is a good option for us.

We run the same risk of rain in August as we do in May.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 10, 2009 8:48 pm

Bobby wrote:
Some very valid points posted by admin.

Please check rainfall reports on web to assist with opinion

http://www.weathersa.co.za/Climat/Climstats/CapeTownStats.jsp

http://www.freewater.co.za/Cape%20Town%20Rainfall%20Patterns.htm

I think we need to look at more recent averages. The data reflected is for a period 1961 - 1990. As an athlete who is very much aware of the weather I can tell you that in the last 5 years I've experienced March and April as a much warmer months every year with the weather only starting to seem like autum around mid to end April.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 10, 2009 10:55 pm

Hi Ernst, I could not trace more current data on web, will look again, should you find more recent information please post.

We actually need the average amount of days rain per month as a good yardstick for better risk management.

Should we get it wrong it will be a sad day for Dealers and Show members.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2009 8:06 am

Hi All

If I may, all the Japans shows in Nigatta are hold in severe winter temps and there are never problems. All that the koi keepers should do is to buy some waders to keep them self’s dry. We buy ours from the outdoor warehouse the cost is ± R500.00. The ideal will be to hold the show in the coldest month that normally doesn’t have rain. The lower the temp the better the koi will do on the show related to health and looks.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2009 9:44 am

Collin wrote:
The lower the temp the better the koi will do on the show related to health

The following is an extract from the book, The Interpet manual of Koi Health written by two of probably the most well known koi health experts in the world, Keith Holmes and Tony Pitman(MD of Koi Waterbarn Ltd):

Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Temp2

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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2009 4:20 pm

Hi,

Quote :
The following is an extract from the book, The Interpet manual of Koi Health written by two of probably the most well known koi health experts in the world, Keith Holmes and Tony Pitman(MD of Koi Waterbarn Ltd):

All I want to say at this stage is this “KOI IS NOT COLDWATER FISH” and I disagree with the two Gentlemen mentioned above.

Koi is ECTOTHERMS.


We could discuss this point in another forum topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2009 5:07 pm

Again more valuable points have been added to the debate.

I am sure we all agree that the extreme heat and extreme cold will be negative for any Show. The amount of show visitors is also a very important factor for Dealer sales, to grow the hobby and to balance the show books.
The WCKC would like to find a happy media for all the role players to take part in the 2010 Show. Herewith some stats off the main contributors on the 2009 Show. (Final figures are not yet available)

As a percentage towards Show income
Show Ponds 32%
Dealers 34%
Visitors / Braai 34%

Due to the expenditure on the marketing budget to provide a better platform for dealers and Koi keepers and future shows we are looking at a possible 25 - 35% loss of revenue.

Please spare a thought for the many Koi keepers that was involved on a voluntary basis (without pay) to make this show a huge success and a wonderful platform for 2010 for all to enjoy. It will be and injustice if I do not acknowledge the active role played by Christie from Cape Koi Aquarium at our meetings with sponsors and with the set-up and breakdown of the show.

Having said this and looking at the SAKKS Show calendar we can theoretically only apply our minds for the 2010 Show, to earliest May and latest August, September.

To balance the 2010 books the Dealers, Keepers and Visitors are all important to achieve our goal of success for all. We urge more Dealers and hobbyist to join the process of planning the 2010 show.

Looking forward to more pointers about the 2010 Show Date. Remember this is your show and your Koi Sales,we need for all to participate in this process with an open mind and to buy-inn, once all the issues have been debated and final date set for the 2010 and future WC Shows.
From the committee point of view we will need good support from Dealers, Keepers and Visitors to justify and balance WCKS books. The alternative would be a major sponsor. Any takers? LOL

Bobby

Paul from Koi Online has challenged me to visit the Durban National Show on the 25th of July 2009 with my Camera. I feel tempted to go. At an estimate of R 2500.00 for Airfare, self catering accommodation and sharing car hire, is any one interested? Prices to be confirmed at time of booking.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 11, 2009 7:41 pm

Someone should tell the Japanese they are doing it all wrong. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 12, 2009 10:29 am

Jaco,

baie goeie punt wat jy daar maak!
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2009 4:32 pm

Hi Jaco

This is my point exactly, there is the Japanese, they invented koi and are practicing the keeping of koi for hundreds of years. Here come the South Africans and the clever westerners that don’t keep koi for more then sixty years yet and they will tell the Japanese that they are doing it wrong. Shocked

This is typical westerners, we know it all. Mad

PLEASE DON’T ALWAYS BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ!
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2009 5:28 pm

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2009 7:29 pm

I posted our question to Peter Waddington and received this response:

'Nishikigoi (brocaded carp) were first produced by mountain folk in the 'Nijimura' (twenty villages) area of Niigata, Japan. The name was changed in the early part of the last Century to Yamakoshimura and around six years ago that name no longer exists officially and has been divided into either Nagaoka or Ojiya depending on the boundaries. The villagers then worked for wealthy landlords and most of their year was spent in farming rice and vegetables on ricefields terraced down the mountainsides. These were irrigated by reservoirs at the top of the mountains. Wild black carp (koi or magoi) were introduced from China (between the late 1700's to mid 1800's) and fry were produced in spring and then grown in these reservoirs until autumn when they were harvested, salted and stored for food over the long winters. The parents could not tolerate winter temperatures and had to be brought into earth ponds in the house floors by the rice farmers who also now were carp farmers producing another source of food. Any small carp harvested for food that showed odd coloured scales in autumn were kept by the farmers as pets. (It is said that these oddities showed from a mixture of different strains of parent carp after they had been 'mixed' in breeding - the main 'strains' were tetsu magoi & asagi magoi) In later years some pets were bred with other pets from different owners that also showed some colour pigmentation and so the 'hobby'was formed. It was years later that this blossomed into a tiny cottage industry.

Whilst it would be nice to really believe that Nishikigoi have been in Japan for Centuries or that 'Hanako' died at 276 years of age, these are only myths - but nice ones. However, I would ask you to consider some facts:-

Mains water supplies did not come to Yamakoshi until 1910.

Electricity followed in the mid 1920's.(No water pumps or air pumps before)

'Wattle and daub' (mud) was used for house building in the area up to the late 1930's when some concrete could be transported there at great cost.(No concrete fish ponds before)

Before these times it was almost impossible to keep more than a few small fish alive over winter in this area.(7 metres of snow and ice)

Amano's excellent book states clearly that any 'Koi' remaining in this area during WW2 were eaten by the villagers who had no food after the menfolk had left to fight.

It is also 'hinted' that all Koi for sale today were developed from parents produced after WW2. Today it is the importance of 'the breeder' rather than early 'bloodlines'.

Senichi Mano of Izumiya says his father started the first Nishikigoi dealer outlet in 1947 - just after WW2 whilst Tsuyoshi Kawakami (Torazo) says his grandfather started the first outlet in 1917 - whatever the truth - this is NOT Centuries as someone has posted.

Then consider this very important fact - vinyl bags were not produced until the early 1960's so only wealthy folks living near Yamakoshi could have Koi transported to them in wooden bowls. It was only after this invention and the addition of liquid oxygen that allowed Koi to be transported safely, not just to the domestic market, but all over the world and that is only 46 years ago! The boom year when Koi hit all of Japan was around 1972.

If the truth is known, less than 0.025% of the Japanese population had either seen or heard of Nishikigoi or Moyoogoi or Irogoi (all early names) before the late 1950's. Nishikigoi is NOT a Japanese tradition for 'Centuries' - sorry.

Back to the original black carp, these were only indigenous to the area around the Caspian Sea hence the latin name 'Cyprinus Carpio'. They are temperate-water species and NOT coldwater species. All Koi in Yamakoshi are kept for nine months a year in indoor, heated concrete, and filtered recirculating systems. They are only placed in field ponds during summer for 'The Golden Ninety Days' which it is often referred to. When the Koi are placed into field ponds, the indoor systems are emptied and scrubbed clean, the filter media is removed, cleaned and left to dry over summer and the filter chambers are also scrubbed clean. It is only in late September when the systems are filled with mains water before pumps are started and aeration is added in preparation for the harvests. In short, the systems are brand new every September and the breeders have no experience in actually 'keeping' Koi for longer than nine months!

On the other hand, we in the western world have to keep our ponds running for year after year after year which is a huge difference and far too complex to go into in a posting such as this. However, by necessity, 'the best-designed, high-end systems' I have seen in recent years around the world are better than the Japanese breeder's indoor systems by far.

Regarding the best possible time of the year in South Africa to transport Koi and stage Koi shows for the welfare of the Koi and when the skin and pigmentation is best is in the coolest water periods. Hence why the All-Japan is staged in Japan in late January. In the UK, Koi shows should also be staged at this time but this conflicts with revenue that can be produced in summer by sales of ice cream, cold drinks, fish & chips, bouncy castles, burgers, craft fairs - yada, yada, yada!

Finally, who stole my picture of the Shiro Utsuri seen on this board?

Peter Waddington (Waddy)
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSat Jun 13, 2009 8:08 pm

HI...Paul. Jaco, Collin

Those of you that know me are all aware of my very limited experience in Koi keeping and as you are all involved in Koi breeding and sales I am unqualified to comment and judge comments made on Koi health issues.

The purpose of this debate is to assist the WCSC to establish a date that will be beneficial to the Koi Dealers, Koi Breeders, Koi Keepers and Visitors.

From the judges logistics point of view the months March and April is not available. We will definitely have to consider the Visitors as they will effect Koi sales and show income.

So to consider all the issues tabled and share your preferred month for the Western Cape 2010 Show, drawing on your years of experience as Koi Breeders and Dealers will be appreciated.


More rainfall stats/ Link
http://www.wordtravels.com/Cities/South+Africa/Cape+Town/Climate
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 14, 2009 5:42 pm

Hi Bobby

I still say, see what month is the colds and the driest in the Western Cape and if it is April or March then that should not be a problem for judges due to the fact that if there is not enough judges then SAKKS should train more judges. They did not have a judges training course in over two years.

It is the responsibility of SAKKS to make sure that there are sufficient judges for all the shows! Maybe they should try and get back all the good judges that had left SAKKS over the years. I know of at least 5 judges that had already been trained but don’t judge any more due to the internal politics of SAKKS. Maybe you should ask Kevin Till to approach these judges to see if SAKKS can not get them onboard again.

My only experience regarding koi shows in the WC are as follows:

May 2006 Rain
May 2007 Rain
August 2008 Rain
May 2009 Mostly Dry

So as you can see I am a Koi Breeder in Pretoria and not a weather man in the WC. lol!

If I look at the site you posted I would say March or October looking at avg temp and rain fall. But October will be out for most breeders and dealers as most of them are Japan or busy breeding.

A word of advice the primary concern regarding any show is the wellbeing of the koi, all the rest comes second, you can only make some people happy some of the time, you cant make all the people happy all of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Weskaap Skou Datum 2010   Weskaap Skou Datum 2010 Icon_minitimeSun Jun 14, 2009 6:18 pm

Colllin wrote:
A word of advice the primary concern regarding any show is the wellbeing of the koi, all the rest comes second, you can only make some people happy some of the time, you cant make all the people happy all of the time.
Very true. Thanks for sharing Collin
The WCKC appreciate Orient Koi attending the 2009 Show in the Cape, hope to see you and Lee Ann again next year.
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