Sorry but what is the difference between khv and nodular disease? As
Both seem untreatable?

Hi,

Go to:

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=191

Hi,
Both are viruses and there is no cure for viruses.

Some detailed info on KHV - taken from the new HEALTH GUIDE from the South African Koi Keepers Society - "What is Known about KHV".

Is a herpes-type virus the genome of which is a double stranded DNA molecule of approximately 295 kilo base pairs (Haenen et al., 2006 – Aoki presentation). KHV is relative large as compared to other known mammal and bird herpesviruses (125 to 245 kbp), however, CyHV-1 (carp pox) has been estimated to also be about 295 kbp. KHV is proposed as a third cyprinid herpesvirus (CyHV-3) in the family Herpesviridae. (Waltzek et al., 2005)

Others resist the classification as a herpesvirus and prefer the designation CNGV. (Dishon, et al., 2005)

Is highly contagious and can produce high (80% to nearly 100%) mortality rates in diseased populations of koi and common carp (Dishon et al., 2005).

The mortality rates appear to be declining and we now see a 40% mortality rate spread over a longer time period.

Appears to cause disease and mortalities only in common carp and koi but the virus can also infect goldfish and crucian carp (Haenen et al., 2006 –Bergmann & Tinman presentations).

Infections are transmitted via virus in the water, in fecal material, in sediments and from fish to fish (Dishon et al., 2005; Hartman, et al. 2004).

The route of infection into the fish is likely thru the gills (Dishon et al. 2005) and the gut (Haenen et al., 2006 – Bergmann presentation).
Propagates mainly in intestine and kidney of infected fish (Dishon et al., 2005).

Deaths can start within 1 to 2 days following the onset of clinical signs (Hartman et al., 2004).

Infected fish usually die within 6 to 24 days (post infection) at permissive temperatures (Dishon et al., 2005)

Permissive temperatures are variously reported as 17 - 26°C; 18 - 27°C; 18 - 25°C; 22 - 26° C and 18 - 28°C (Haenen et al., 2004; Hartman et al., 2004; Ronen, et al., 2003; Perelberg et al., 2003 & Haimi, 2003 [plus several others], respectively)

Temperature ranges for optimum virus growth in cell cultures tend to be 2 - 3°C wider than those in fish (Gilad et al., 2003).

Can produce latency and/or a persistent low-level infection such that survivors can later become infectious (St-Hilaire et al., 2005).

Can survive off the fish for weeks, probably in sediments and/or filters (Haenen et al., 2006 –Bergmann presentations).

Clinical signs seem to be arrested at above 30°C and fish raised to this temperature can often survive the disease (Ronen et al., 2003).

Clinical signs seem to be arrested at below 13°C (Hedrick et al., 2005)

Does not appear to cause disease at or below 13°C (55° F) – (Gilad et al., 2003). However, researchers in Europe have shown the disease may be adapting to lower temperatures.

Antibodies have been found in survivors up to a year post infection (Haenen et al., 2006 –Dixon presentation).

Virus found up to 7 months post infection in the base of the gills, the kidney, the spleen and the leukocytes (Haenen et al., 2006 – Bergmann presentation).

The entire viral genome has been sequenced (Haenen et al., 2006 – Aoki presentation).

There are several different strains (mutations) of the virus (Haenen et al., 2006 – Ito presentation).

There is no concern with infections to humans with KHV. (Hartman et al., 2004; Southard et al., 2006) .

Sven Bergmann in Germany, has found the viral DNA in blood (white cells) for up to a year post infection.

Some Japanese investigators have found KHV in river water several months after the apparent cessation of the active disease in carp in that river.

Researchers in Weymouth (England) found that non-cleaned filters from systems that contained fish with active disease could infect naive fish for up to two weeks after all diseased fish were removed from the system.

Hobbyists in Atlanta Georgia (USA) had a KHV outbreak in the summer (late June-early July), heat-treated (30°C) the diseased fish, many survived. However, naive fish placed in the pond developed KHV the following spring.

Sophie St-Hilaire et al have authored two papers in which she and the others showed that survivors of a KHV outbreak can develop KHV again.

St-Hilaire et al and Adkison et al and others have found that some survivors develop antibodies to KHV and that (ELISA) tests for the presence of these antibodies are possible (both Weymouth and U.C. Davis offer such tests).

Bran Ritchie of the Univ. of Georgia (USA) developed a serology test for inferring the presence of KHV antibodies - the test shows whether dilute serum from suspect fish will inhibit the growth of KHV in a culture of Koi/carp cells.

Both the (ELISA) antibody tests and the serology tests have been used to detect survivors of past KHV infections with the inference that the fish that test positive are very likely to be carriers of the disease.

Regards,
Chris

The difference between KHV and Nodular Disease (MYXOBOLUS)

KHV and Gill Necrosis are both viruses as Chris stated, but Nodular Disease occurs when Koi become infected with “myxozoan” parasites, namely Myxobolus.
This disease can effect Koi externally on the body, fins and gills, or internally when organs and muscles are affected.Gill and internal infections are most harmful as these may go unnoticed for some time; by the time they are spotted irreparable damage may have occurred.

This disease can be highly contagious so it is best to avoid buying Koi showing symptoms. This may prove problematic as the disease takes many months to develop; so Koi with early stages of infection is often difficult.

IDENTIFICATION:
As the name nodular disease suggests, lumps appear either externally or internally. These lumps or cysts as they are correctly termed maybe up to 5 mm in diameters and have a white yellow appearance. They are not uniform in shape.



These cysts contain many thousands of tiny parasitic spores which, when released, may be eaten by other Koi and so spreading the disease.



When internal infections are present, spores may be released in the Koi’s waste.



The most harmful instance of myxobolus occurs when the gills are infected, Sometimes the gills become so swollen that they press against the gillcover, or it becomes infected with secondary bacterial infections which inhabit their ability to take up oxygen.
This is sometime called “ swelling cheek disease” or “frog disease”.
Other signs of the disease are; excess production of mucus, lethargy, or lack of hunger which over time causes the Koi to look emaciated. Koi will also spend time around areas rich in oxygen ( water falls and water returns (venturi) to the pond

TREATMENT:
There is no treatment for this disease currently available.
The infected fish must be removed to a quarantine facility to prevent further infection.

Potassium Permanganate at 3,5g per 1000ly water could be added to the quarantine facility; beware that Koi with badly infected gills will die!
Any Koi surviving, should best be kept in a pond by themselves!

The best is to destroy all Koi once this disease has been identified and the whole pond system sterilized and clean thoroughly with HTH before introducing Koi to the pond.

Hi Keeper,

I am interested - why did you ask about the difference between these two diseases?

Regards,
Chris

U have scared me now!
Last week I spotted this things on 2 Koi...How long does it take for the disease to manifest itself...
The last Koi I bought was in may 2010...
Can it be the same?
Last year 3 koi had pox like nodules that burst after 3-4 month and ulcerated...I treated them and all were OK till now..This are different koi with lumps!
Let me know what U think!
Cant upload pictures! It says I overused my allowance and I dont know how to sort that out...
DESCRIPTION:
It looks like a round drop of water, 4mm in diameter, white milky in color, and it is on one fish on the pectoral and one caudal fin.
It looks in shape like drop of water on a oily surface....almost like a ball touching the fin on the bottom most part.
Two fish have one each!
i put them on Photobucket:
https://s1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd362/Neli_Stoyanova/My%20pond/

Hi Neli, that looks like normal carp pox to me.

By the way, if you want your photo to appear on the forum, you can just copy the IMG code and paste it where you want it to appear within your text.

Admin Thanks!
Why I thought it is not carp pox is:
It is hard
it is hot here
I had it last year on two other Koi and after 4 month it ruptured and caused small ulceration...
As far as I know carp pox does not do that...
Thought of a some kind of parasitic cyst, or some other viral infection...IMHO
But the truth is U should know better that me...
Knowing a lot about a disease but having never seen it live makes it hard for me to diagnose...
Thanks!
Let me know if U sill think it is carp pox?

Just testing!

Carp pox is also a viral infection, and can also be hard. Although you normally get it at low temperatures, you also get is at high temperatures, although many writers wrongly state that it appears "only" at low temperatures. Our temperature currently range between 29 - 35 degrees Celsius and I have a few koi with carp pox.

It is not an indication of ill health and normally disappear after a year or two.

It normally does not rupture but it is possible that the rupture and wound were caused by something else.

It might also be Papilloma, which is basally a kind of Carp Pox and seen by many as the same thing, often look very much the same, but tends to open and often tuns red and sometimes end up in wound (ulcer like) skin rapture as you described. You may also notice tumor-like growths which look red or pink.

Most people and text books will tell you that it is not contagious. I think it might be. Why do you often see carp pox in only one pond if you have many ponds like I do? I have 29 separate systems, and carp pox in only one. Makes you wonder.

Thanks admin!
I think I will remove it in sterile conditions preventing its spread and disinfect the wounds...better safe than sorry . Last year I did not touch it...but now I will remove it.
Yes carp pox and papiloma are all herpes virus...but not the same as KHV.

Ernst Van Dyk told me that he treats it effectively with Virkon S. I have not tried it, but it makes more sense than cutting it away. You are running the risk of infections. I just leave it to disappear by itself.

Admin wrote:

rnst Van Dijk told me that he treats it effectively with Virkon S. I have not tried it, but it makes more sense than cutting it away. You are running the riss of infections. I just leave it to disappear by itself.

If it raptures again, dont U think it can infect more Koi? That was my main reasoning for wanting to remove it...
Dont have vicron here, but have acriflavine...and can make a paste of it, or use the unmentionable....????if U know what I mean.

Was looking for a section about Carp pox where i could post this instead of here but could not find it.

I have used Virkon S before aswell to get rid of it.

It is important to way up to values between the benefit of removing the pox and stressing the koi. If it is not a show fish and you will never show then dont do the physical treatment. Carp pox does not hurt the kois, so they live very happily with it. If the koi is also covered in lots of pox then i will only treat the water otherwise you will damage the fish and stress it too much.

The process.
I would start by treating the water with 5g/1000l Virkon S. If you want the marks removed asap then and catch the fish, sedate them, scrape the pox with a knife. If you can remove it - great otherwise just scratch it. Make a little paste with VirkonS and water it must not be fluid it must still be crystals then using a some cotton wool, dip it in the paste and rub the area with it. You will have to apply some force but not that hard that you remove scales ect. Do that for 30s or so while keeping enough of the "paste\crystals" on the cotton wool. Then lastly place some of the paste directly on the area and let it dry for another 30sec. Then release the koi. The paste will be washed off by the water and will not stay on the area.

It has worked for me but takes about a week to disappear depending on the size of the pox. I have found on bigger pox marks that just adding virkon s to the water is not enough to get rid of it and rubbing the area with virkon s only is also not enough. It seems to need a combination of the two. But if its a small pox then you try just adding virkon to the water.

You will notice that the pox becomes smaller and smaller every day until it disappears.

Wayne

Wayne,
Thanks a million!
I dont have vicron S here...so if U say it is OK, I will just leave it..
I am not too sure if it is a big one, for this is the only size I had (4mm)...and I have not seen bigger ones..
Two fish has it one nodule each.
So since I am not showing, I will just leave it. I can also use the unmentionable pencil...but if U say it is OK...then I will just leave it.
Thanks ones more for the food diagram...I found it excellent reference!
I am posting my babies here today...cant U post yours too?
I would love to see them...
And I am going to bug Admin to post his too...I hope he will!