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 Wound from injection my KOI

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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu May 27, 2010 3:19 pm

Brkic wrote:
I found this for Baytril(1 shot a day over the course of 10 days- http://www.backyardpuddle.ca/health.html) and USA koi vet say inject 1,3,5 day with Baytril. What is a true.

Its usually days 1, 3 & 6. Every 3rd day in other words. Then leave for 10days. You can do a 2nd course after 10days if you want but the first cource is usually enough.
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu May 27, 2010 3:23 pm

No I live in Sombor, 200km north of Belgrade.

Thanks wayneb for help and explanation.

I dont understand something, when I clean and dry wound and applying some wound powder or some wound balsam or Gentamycin sprays why I must dry the liquid (with hair dryer). Fish return to water and everything is wet and balsam is goes down.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu May 27, 2010 4:13 pm

Brkic,

the " medicine" will stick beter when dry.
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 10:09 am

I need help agen,
what is recommended dose for Baytril 10% ?

USA vet say Baytril 10% at 0.2ml per kg bodyweight (inject day 1, 3, 5) and fish is different from mammals.

I found Baytril 10%, but here his name is Enrocin S 10%(Active element is Enrofloksacin 100,0 mg/ml ) and recommended dose is 1ml/40kg = 0,025ml/1kg and use every 24h. In critical situation it use 1ml/20kg.
Enrocin S 10%
for sheep,goat (s.c) 2,5 mg/kg = 1ml/40kg
for pigs (i.m.) 2,5 mg/kg = 1ml/40kg
for dogs and cats (s.c.) 5,0 mg/kg = 1ml/20kg !!!!!

what is correct ?
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 10:39 am

I only have the dose for Baytril 5%. So i guess you must half it if you have the 10% type.

Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 BaytrilDose


Last edited by wayneb on Fri May 28, 2010 10:43 am; edited 1 time in total
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 10:43 am

I found this Baytril ( Enrofloxacin) dose rate 14 mg per kg
http://www.koiquest.co.uk/anti%20dose%20rates.htm
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 10:47 am

Just note that the website is for Baytril 2.5%. You have the 10% type which is much stronger. I gave you the table for the 5% type on the previouse page.
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 10:54 am

Ok, thanks I see.

on the table dose for baytril is 10mg/kg - baytril 5% have 50mg/1ml
1kg fish/0,2ml of baytril 5%
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 12:49 pm

Hi,

Please note, that if a medicine name ends with "....cin", it is a by-product of Gentamycin. Which is much stronger then Baytril.

I work on the following: 10cm = 0,01ml
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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 2:16 pm

Hi Pieter, then Baytril must also be a byproduct of Gentamycin?

Baytril is basically a 2 - 5% solution of Enrofloxacin

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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 4:20 pm

Hi Paul,

That is correct. The " strongness" is made-up with the Gentamycin part, in this case Enrofloxacin.
Other products:
Amikacin (Amukin)
Enrofloxacin (Baytril) Good for treatment against Aeromonas salmonicada
Gentamycin (Gentajet) Causes kidney damaage
Gentamycin (Genta 50 - very strong) Fin rot and bacterial diseases ( Kidney damage)
Kanamysin (10%) Mainly used to treat Mycobacterium
Lincomycin (Lincocin) Good for external bacterial infections
Marbotfloxacin (Marbocyl) Same spectrum as Enrofloxacin
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 5:14 pm

Hi Pieter

If they all contain Gentamycin, then all of them will be damaging to the kidneys, not.

One should then be careful of dosage levels in all cases, you should be anyway.

I know that terramycin is also known for infection at the injection site, our friend in Serbia has that problem wonder what the active ingredient of that stuff he used is, wont be surprised if it is the same as terramycin. which we all know is just about useless on koi these days.
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 5:38 pm

Quote :
I found Baytril 10%, but here his name is Enrocin S 10%(Active element is Enrofloksacin 100,0 mg/ml )

The active ingredient that he has is "Enrofloksacin" not sure if its spelled like that or whether its actually "enrofloxacin" like in baytril.

All anti-biotics have negative affects. Anti-biotics given in water below 18'C is almost useless as far as i understand.

Some people add terramycin to the food of their kois and that just makes the bacteria immune to the anti biotic in the long run. Its like taken anti-biotics daily incase you might get flu...when you actually get flu then the anti-biotics dont want to work anymore cause the bacteria / virus has build up a resistance. Thats why with anti-biotics you have to complete the course and then stop.

I usually clean the injection area with Peroxide before the injection and then after the injection i clean it again with peroxide and place melchalite green & frairs balsam seal over the area.....just incase.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 6:15 pm

Neville,

Kidney damage is link to the % of gentamycin used in the “product”, such as Genta 50 ( 50%)
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 8:37 pm

Thanks Pieter,

I think we shared a lot of valuable info here
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri May 28, 2010 8:41 pm

how much "ml" can by injected in the pectoral muscle(pectoral fins) with yours experience ?
Example 2kg fish have big pectoral muscle,how much "ml" can by injected ?

Pieter,
whay you think that kidney damage is link to the % of gentamycin used in the “product” ?
In table post wayneb dose of gentamycin is 3,5mg/kg in all gentamycin product
formula is
1ml/(%Genta/(3,5* fish weight))
1/(50/(3,5*0,75))=0,0525ml or
1/(10/(3,5*0,75))=0,26ml in both dose is 2,625mg/kg of gentamycin
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat May 29, 2010 10:35 am

Brkic,

Firstly the size of a muscle has nothing to do with the amount of the injection volume.
The “medicine” from the injection is taken up in the muscle from where it is “spreading” through the body of the fish.

It is also common knowledge that an overdose of gentamycin will cause damage to the kidneys.
In same cases the kidneys will fail and there will be a build-up of body fluid, causing conditions like Popeye and Dropsy, swim bladder afflictions often occur due to pressure on the swim bladder due to a swollen abdomen caused by the build-up of body fluid.

All antibiotics come with percentage of active ingredients and therefore there will be a % sign on the bottle of an injectable that must be observed as overdoses kill.
The percentage sign on the bottle refers to the active ingredient to every ml injected; e.g. :-
Baytril 2,5% will have 25 mg of active ingredient for every milliliter/ or cc you inject, but all injectable antibiotics have a limited shelf life and therefore a use by date.

Some antibiotics fall into the classification of aminolycocides, and these are very powerful drugs.
E.g. Gentamycin, Amihacin Tobramycin etc. generally anything with a “cin” on the end falls into this class of DRUG.
Generally these are highly toxic to the host of an infection, and can cause total and irreversible kidney failure and can kill fish very easily if even slightly overdosed.

Most antibiotics are dosed in mg(milligrams) per kilogram of fish weight and therefore so many mg of active ingredient per 1ml/cc of injectable.

A look at Baytril 2,5%

Percentage % of antibiotic = Milligrams of active ingredient per 1 ml of injectable antibiotic
0.1% =1mg
0.2%=2mg
0.3%=3mg
0.4%=4mg
0.5%=5mg..........................

0.9%=9mg
1.0%=10mg
2.5%=25mg
5.0%=50mg
10%=100mg...........................

Baytril ( 2,27% 0r 22,7mg / ml) 14mg per kg of fish every other day ( Max five shots)

A rough guide in fish length using Baytril

Cm of fish = Volume dose of Baytril 2,5% in ml’s
15cm=0.1ml
30cm=0.5ml
45cm=0.7ml
55cm=1.0ml
65cm=1.5ml
75cm=2.0ml
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeThu Jun 03, 2010 10:39 pm

Gentamycin or Gent50-20-10 is use like Baytril (1, 3, 5 days) ?

I tried Batryl and it seemed to have no affect and I think to try Gentamycin.

Did must be pause between antibiotics ?
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 10:25 am

Hi,

I use Genta 50 as follows:

0,01ml per 10cm (only inject fish over 30cm)
Every 4th day over a period of 12 days (max. of 3 shots)
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Brkic



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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 10:40 am

Thansk Pieter for help,
I found that Gentamycin is use 5-6mg/kg.

Did I clear understand, every 4th day is 1,5,9 days ?

Did must be pause between Baytril and now Gentamycin ?
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 10:56 am

Hi,

Inject Genta 50 ............Day 1, 6 and 12.

Only inject Genta 50 fourteen days after the last Baytril injection
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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jun 04, 2010 1:37 pm

Hi,

Have you considered taking a swab of the infected area and sending it to a lab to identify the strain of bacteria causing your problem. The original wound seems to have come from the original injection. That tells me to try to avoid injecting all the time as you may be creating opportunities for bacteria to create more holes!

Once you have identify the correct bacterial strain the lab can do cultures and establish which antibiotic or antibiotics will work and more importantly which antibiotics will not work.

As the fish is still relatively healthy you could then administer antibiotic via the feed for 10 days instead of catching and stressing the creature every few days.

After the antibiotic course leave the fish along so that is immune system can heal the wound. That is where the healing should come from - the immune system and the body.

By administering the wrong antibiotic you may well be making the wound worse. Not all antibiotics work.

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 9:24 am

Chris Neaves wrote:
Hi,

Have you considered taking a swab of the infected area and sending it to a lab to identify the strain of bacteria causing your problem. Chris

How do you take a swab. Earbuds? What exactly do you send to the lab, and which labs in South Africa will be able to analyse the swab?
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 10:00 am

Hi Phillip
You can get a swap tube from local Vet or pharmacy and ask them to send it in for you or you can send it to Path Care yourself.
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PostSubject: Re: Wound from injection my KOI   Wound from injection my KOI - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 07, 2010 4:54 pm

I found Gentaicin of my vet,
but his Gentaicin have 80mg/ml = Genta80
I must diluting that Gentaicin.
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