Hi, when i started out in this hobby i was told that if you wanted a good quality koi you had to purchase one from a specific bloodline. One with a heritage...But does a bloodline guarentee anythng?

As i understand it a Bloodline is a specific strain of a certain koi type that the breeder and his family has spent years and years perfecting. The blood line of the koi can be traced back through his heritage... A bloodline gives you certain qualities or occurances that you can expect from a specific breeder. So not all breeders have their own bloodline. Some breeders have their own bloodline for sanke fro example, but they also breed koi from another breeder bloodline.

Example of what a bloodline gives you:

• Some develop hi early other devlop hi late.
  
• Some develop sumi early and other develop it late.
  
• Certain bloodlines grow bigger than others.
  
• Some koi remain thin and only bulk at a certain age.
  
• Some koi grow to 80+cm in 4years where others only achieve it in 10+ years

I was recently speaking to Ernst and he is a big fan of sakai. He showed me a book from sakai where he as the purchaser could see the parents (Oyagoi) that was used to spawn a batch. Each Oyagoi has its own traits that get passed to its offspring.




So he as the purchaser can make a more informed decision when purchasing koi as he is not only selecting the bloodline but also from which Oyagoi his koi must come from. So i can almost say he is selecting a sub bloodline from the main bloodline?

That got me thinking. Does all japanses breeders work like this? I dont know, Do they all have multiple Oyagoi? A bloodline makes more sence in the way that sakai is using it as it gives the "bloodline" of the koi but if the other breeders are not working like that then they are just branding their koi, promising common traits from their offspring that may occur as its not really a true bloodline.

If i use my family name "Barker" as an example. If you think of "Barkers" what are their common traits? Without knowing the family tree it will be impossible to give. For example in my "Barker" "bloodline" we are afrikaans speaking, the men are usually tall and slightly overweight and the woman are big boned (not fat) Their is also a gentic chance of hart disease but if you took another barker of the street he might not have those traits even if we are distantly related.

So if i am purchasing a Dainichi or Torazo what am i actually getting? Am i just getting a koi with a brand name? I hope i carried my point accros good enough.

Please feel free to educate me.

Hi Wayne seeing you are into this offspring thing and you are using the "Barker" as an eg. I had the pleasure of meeting your parents (the brood stock) the other day. They seem to be energetic and friendly folks. What happened Wayne ? Is this what you are referring too, or am I missing the point ?

LOL, yes bobby. I guess you view it like that....Im a dreamer, a thinker, a visionary and a bit of a stirer. but at least i do look like them...

You own koi from the nagoshi bloodline for example....without knowing the parents all you know is that the parents are from nagoshi bloodline.... Dis hoekom jy nou die dag gese het....

Bobby wrote:

My 10000lt pond gave exceptional growth in 2008/09 by taking my koi up to and close to the 60cm mark, this year was disappointing with 1-2 cm only but they added some bulk. Maybe they were on strike waiting for new pond. Maybe the genetics are not there?

If you knew the momma and the pappa you would not have any doubt regarding the potential of the genetics of your koi...

My arme seun James is in vir 'n ding....Die barkers her heart disease in die familie en die Dafels (my vrou se kant) het polisisties niere en bles kop mans.....Die twee saam klink nie na 'n goeie bloedlyn nie....


So tell me, when our dealers go over to japan to visit the breeders, Do they get told from which parents the offspring comes from? Or is this type of thing only viewed as important for the real connoisseur koi hobbiests that can fork out lots of $$$ on bigger fish?

Ek hou nogal van wat Ernst nou die dag gese het..

Ernst wrote:

Show me the momma and show me she is well over 80cm and I will have no problem to fork out R10k for a nissai should I see the potencial in what I look for as a collector.

Ek sal graag die mammas en pappas van die tosais ook wil sien.

Also take a look at these links:

http://www.migita-nishiki.com/set09/09set.html

http://www.momotaro-koi.org/english/oyakoi/index.htm

http://omosako.web.fc2.com/keito/news-japan.html


'The only way to know where you are going is to know where you are coming from'

This one is great - just click on the parent name to see how they look and their traits - notice how some are 'confidential"!

http://www.dainichikoifarm.com/ENG/production.html

Very interesting Ernst. Thanks for sharing

Very intresting, now i have lots of questions.

How would you refer to the bloodline of a specific Dainichi showa? Dainichi -Sakrua X ???

Where does the pappa come into all of this? Or is it all todo with the momma?

Does all japanses breeders give this info out?

I have heard that some magoi are crossed into some kohaku to help with the genitics regarding growth and size. Would that magoi also feature as a Oyagoi then or is that where the confidential comes in?

What does the pappa bring to the party - genetics wise....and the mamma?

I assume if you buy a koi from popular breeder (and you dont know the parents) you can be fairly sure that the momma was big as the breeder would not want to damage his name.

I'm just a novice koi keeper and i don't have a cooking clue about breeding - it would be nice if Collin or Jaco (I think they are the only breeders on this forum??) can get into the conversation and answer some of your questions Wayne. I for example would love to know the parent set Orient used to breed that incredible sanke in Collin's avatar - Jaco - you deal with some very interesting non-gosanke varieties - mind sharing some of the parents and their offspring with us?

Ernst wrote:

I'm just a novice koi keeper

Ja Right! what are the rest of us then?

Thats a good idea, lets get some of the real breeders involved.

Guys have a look here, there Is a discussion on this going on there with a practical example.


http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107215&page=3

Dainichi　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/dainichi/parent

Sakai (SFF)　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/sakai/parent

Marudo　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/marudo/parent

Matsue　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/matsue/parent

Maruyama　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/maruyama/parent

Kondo　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/kondo/parent

Omosako　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/omosako/parent

Uonuma　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/uonuma/parent

Isa　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/isa/parent

Taniguchi　 http://www.narita-koi.com/koimaker/taniguchi/parent