It is astonishing how good Koi forums had become

I mean, look at this forum Some members, after only a few months suddenly became experts on matters of Koi.

It’s amazing

And, ..... everybody is entitled to their opinion on this forum, whether it is good or bad.

I think everybody should feel free to voice themself on the forum, because we can learn from EVERYBODY, whether he/she has been in the koi game for a month or for ages.

Sometimes people who are in the game for ages, have "old school" thoughts, as apposed to newbies, who sometimes have bright, new, and current ideas.

We need them all!

As Bobby said yesterday on this forum:

Bobby wrote:

At the end of the day one should evaluate feedback and apply what feels right.

Negative personal attacks achieve nothing, people should agree to disagree based on your own experience.

I feel it is unfair to critisize local bred koi only because you import Japanese koi.

What are we going to do with all the local crap you and rest rest of us are breeding?

huh? waar het iemand nou iets gese oor local koi hier?

Ek dink as die kwaliteit reg is sal alby verkoop. Jaco ek het al jou vissies gesien, hulle kwaliteit is baie goed jy het nie rede om terug testaan nie.

Ek dink dit gaan alles oor of die local breeder goeie bloedlyne het en wat die local breeders cull....word die laer kwaliteit gecull of nogsteeds verkoop teen min of meer die selfe prys as Jap imports om onkostes tedek? Koi keepers is nie almal poepols nie, hulle begin miskien as nuwe koi keepers wat niks weet nie maar binne 6maande of so weet hulle of hulle ingedoen was of nie. Dit is waar die verskil le dink ek.

Iets wat ek graag aan al die dealers will se is; Gee jou klient 'n goeie diens en 'n goeie produk en hy sal terug kom. Klein klente raak groot kliente. Gee hulle almal dieselfde diens. As 'n mens begin met die hobby is R500 duur vir 'n koi maar na 2 jaar is R2000-R5000 aanvaarbaar....later is R10 000 ook aanvaar baar.....maar dit begin alles met hoe hy die eerste keer gehanteer is....het jy moeite gedoen en vir hom 'n photo van sy cheap vissie ge-email of nie? Het jy hom gebel en opgevolg 'n week later...dis klein dingetjies.

Onthou die is 'n publieke forum en so enigeiemand kan enige opinie he.

Daar is duidelik gese dat plaaslike geteelde koi sy rooi gaan verloor.

Ek moet ongelukig hier saam met Jaco stem die Suid Afrikaner glo dat daar niks goed uit SA kan kom nie. Hulle wil ook nie betaal vir goeie plaaslik geteelde koi nie.

Dit is hoekom ons 95% van ons koi uitvoer. Die van hulle wat wel sal betaal vir ‘n goeie koi is so min, slegs 5% van ons bemarkbaare koi word plaaslik verkoop.

Ons voorsien heidiglik geen koi aan enige handelaars in SA nie, die 5% word dierek van die plaas af verkoop
.
Maar Wayne is ook reg diens en eerlikheid is baie belangrik vir koi kliente.

Jaco wrote:

Daar is duidelik gese dat plaaslike geteelde koi sy rooi gaan verloor.

Toe ek begin het met die hobby het in 2005 het ek by stodels 'n kohaku gekoop vir R150, 'n maand later was dit 'n shiro muji.

Ek het ook 2 local geteelde tosai kohaku by platinum gekoop in die verlede en R100 vir elk betaal nie een het hulle rooi verloor nie.

Ek het al 3 local gedeelde kohaku tosais in die verlede by Orient gekoop vir R 800 elk en nie een het hulle rooi verloor nie.

Ek het 'n sansai japanses import gekoop by Cape koi en R6500 betaal vir haar. Die vis het 2.5 jaar by my geswem en niks makeer nie nadat ek met haar gespawn het in Dec 2008 het sy 80% van haar rooi weg gegooi.

Die dinge is maar onvoorspelbaar....deel van die hobby, maar die tekens was obviously klaar daar met die vissie waaroor die discussion gaan.



Nou hier is 'n persoonlikie vraag wat elkeen maar vir homself moet vra....As 'n klient die vissie by jou wil koop en jy as handelaar sien die tekens....gaan jy hom aan hom verkoop?

Admin wrote:

For years I have sold local bred koi and a lot of them became Shiro Muji.

For the last four years, I import all my Koi from Japan and a very small percentage of them have lost its hi.

In view of my "personal" experience, I do not buy any local bred Go-Sanke for re-sale anymore.

QJones wrote:

In my experience it is not often an occurance with imports and happens more with local breeding where the genetics is not as strong.

Dis die manne se persoonlike opinie, nes ek nie 'n ford ry nie want ek glo ford breek die heeltyd, 'n ander man ry ford en daar is niks fout vir hom daar mee nie.

Like with all business, service and value goes hand in hand with perception in the market place.

Perception is not depended on if the Koi is local Japanese, or anywhere else in the world but purely on service and experience. The once bitten twice shy concept also plays a major role.

There are only so many breeders and many more keepers buying Koi, all bad experiences adds up to an perception of an industry. I am sure many keepers have come across the sale of Japanese Koi that is not Japanese koi, by retailers because of the stronger Japanese perception.

Many keepers have been paying enormous amounts of money for very low grade Koi in the beginning years of their hobby and then after a period of experience, the once bitten rule kicks in.

I have seen big business paying through their neck for salt and pepper local Koi, years back and only now that my experience is a little more I realise that those companies paid good money for rubbish koi.

For any perception to change one needs many positive experiences and good service for the buyers to trust and feel that real fare value for money has taken place and that the price is relevant.

It is my perception that the breeders are very sensitive over this issue and this won't change perception. There are breeders that is doing a very good and positive job in the local industry and should not be concerned with general comment.

I am sure that any dealer or retailer with very little experience would have seen that the Kohaku in question is strongly at risk to loose the Hi

The industry should regulate itself more to ensure that the market improves on perception.

Personally I have paid school fees on local and Japanese Koi.

I have one local bred koi currently swimming in my pond - a shiro bred by Orient. I bought 5 at the show as tosai last year and took the best one in my opinion to my big pond to grown on for our baby ko show in April.

I've always believed that we should be able to produce koi of similar if not better quality than the japanese based on our climate and water. And our breeders do produce some stunning koi. My only critisim up to now has been the growth potencial of the go-sanke produced locally. Koi loose their hi - that's a given - lots of factors contribute to this and it can happen to local or imported fish. Sometimes they just die as well, local or imported. We are dealing with live stock and your are in natures hands.

Speak to any japanese breeder and they will show you photos of their parent koi and examples of their offspring in various parings in the past. SFF brings out a stunning book every year with all their parent koi and spawning dates - this gives you an exellent reference on what you could expect with the koi you had purchased. I'd love to see our local breeders move in that direction. Show me the momma and show me she is well over 80cm and I will have no problem to fork out R10k for a nissai should I see the potencial in what I look for as a collector.

In my pond i have a shiro from Omosako imported as a tosai in 2005 - she is now 80cm.
I have a showa from SFF - imported as a 2.5 year old last year Feb at 69cm - she is now 80cm
I have a kohaku from SFF - imported as a 2.5 year old last year Feb at 69cm - she is now 78cm.

This is what I exepect when I spend money on a koi - if it can happen locally why the hec would I pour money into the japanese economy when I could do it in SA.

Jaco wrote:

I feel it is unfair to critisize local bred koi only because you import Japanese koi.

Jaco, all the countries worldwide have accepted that Japanese koi are the best in the world, and most countries use Japanese breeding stock.

I can promise you that I would not promote Japanese koi purely because I import Japanese koi as alledged by you. I am trying my best to maintain a totally unbiased forum, and I would not jeopardise the credibility of the forum to make a few bucks. You clearly do not know me very well.

There are so many reasons why they are superior.

See for instance http://www.ponddoc.com/, one of the most popular koi related websites in the world:

Quote :

The single most important factor which determines the quality of koi are the genes that the koi has inherited from its parents. As we know, koi are artificially selected ornamental carp whose genes have mutated to produce colourful freaks of nature. Given a chance, these unstable desirable physical attributes of colour, pattern, and skin quality would revert back to wild type (dull, unmarked carp) in only a few generations. It is the koi breeders' mission to continue to work with the desirable (yet recessive) genes that his brood stock continue to yield to enhance further the desirable physical traits that we as koi keepers demand.

To achieve this relentless quest for better quality koi, koi breeders cross closely-related fish in an attempt to increase the frequency of the desirable and recessive genes, eventually leading to the creation of a bloodline with recognisable characteristics which may become the trademark of a specific breeder. Furthermore, to improve the quest for quality, koi breeders in Japan will often specialise in one or two closely related varieties, whose genes, broodstock and bloodlines they can concentrate on for generations.

Once you have met a number of top class Japanese koi breeders, you soon appreciate that they have committed themselves (and often their entire family) to a lifetime's work in the perfection of a specific variety. You get the impression that they are in some way addicted to the treadmill of improving on the quality of last year's harvest. Behind them, they have many generations of experience which they can't afford to lose but must build upon - broodstock and bloodlines clients that the competition would die for.

This is largely why the Japanese consistently produce the best koi in the world. No other breeders have the experience, genetic heritage or way of life to be able to produce koi of the same quality. All other breeders are playing catch-up and because these improvements in koi quality can only generally be achieved by careful selection year after year it is unlikely that other sources of koi will ever reach that of Japan.

The quality of koi bred by South African breeders are improving every year and I am proud of it, being a South African. I would also like to rather promote South African koi, I am a patriot, but we have to be realistic. No other country in the world has yet achieved what they have achieved, and that is common knowledge, and this is no attack on you as local breeder.

Yes, South Africa do also produce very good koi, especially koi with very good value for money. I am also breeding and hope I will have good Hariwake's this year bred with Japanese parents. However, I accept that I will not be able to get the same quality as the Japanese experts who have been doing it for centuries as mentioned in the above article.

The most important reason for the good QT of koi coming from Japan is due to there culling process. I don’t know of many SA koi breeders that have gone to the trouble to go and learn this from the Japanese.

I know we visit the best breeders every year to learn more.

The bulk of SA breeders see koi farming as a business opportunity and not as an art form. Due to them we (SA breeders that follow the Japanese way of farming) also have the stigma of nothing good comes from SA.

A huge problem faced by the South Afrian Breeder is the word "mix". It does not matter what you breed or how good it is, the breeder will not sell many fish to dealers if it is not a good mix. We, specialize in Kohaku, yet we must breed many other varieties to be able to sell to dealers, whereis in Japan certain breeders are known for certain varieties i.e Dainichi Showa, Torazo Kohaku, Hiroi Goshiki and so on.