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wayneb

wayneb

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PostSubject: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 12:42 pm

I am not a big fan of doitsu kois as i think they are inferior. I have had a couple in the past and not one was free of problems.

Some of the issues i had:
1. Slow growth (3 years old and stil 30cm long)
2. Getting fat very quickly.
3. Internal tumours
4. Damage to the skin and leaves a mark.

Why i say they are inferior: My information below regarding the genetics come from a discussions i had with Servaas De kock regarding doitsu

1. Doitsu fish have less vertabra than normal wagoi so they tend to be shorter and cant grow as big as wagoi.

2. The less vertabra also means that they have a funny (wagy) type of swim pattern.

3. Their colours and clear cut pattern are stunning for koi show purpouses but to keep the good body shape is difficult as they genetically grow fat and short.

4. If they develop a sore it leaves a mark on the skin and they dont have scales to hide it under.

5. Doitsu fish have less red and white blood cells - genetically. So it means that they take longer to heal and have a lower blood/oxygen mix and have thus a inferior immune system.

6. Doitsu fish also have less gill filliments than wagois. So their oxygen absorbtion is much more limited that wagois.

7. The lack of scales to protect them also make them much more vulnerable to water conditions, tempreture changes and medications.

8. They develop rinkels when they get older.

So, i guess it is more of an accomplishment to ave a 40cm+ show quality doitsu koi than a wagoi because its a real challenge to get them there.
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sas



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PostSubject: RE:   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 3:00 pm

I never keep any doitsu go-sanke long enough to see what will happen.

All i know is "Gi-rin go-sanke" do grow slower than "wagoi go-sanke" in general, except the "Gi-rin go-sanke" breed by Sakai Fish Farm (SFF - Horishima).

But thanks for your informations.
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sas



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PostSubject: Re:   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 3:08 pm

Hi, Wayne

Since, you are talking about genetics related topics. I think you will be interested in this.

So, I would like to show you a picture, tell me if you can see anything different between this kohaku's body shape and the normal kohakus' body shape?

Also, look at the fins carefully.

regards,
sas

Doitsu 20081127_36d4eee15e2b276c44a9kJGmC8
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 3:50 pm

Hi tony

Genetics is something i do not know much about except from what i have read regarding specific breeders and bloodlines.

I would say that this kohaku looks very stocky (fat) like a showa. It also seems very short. According to the Koi 1 book Kohaku should have a spindle shaped body shaped while showa has a more stocky body shape.

The fins seem square in appearance.

Wayne
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sas



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PostSubject: Re:   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 4:46 pm

Hi Wayne,

This kohaku has the body structure of a Chagoi. This kohaku's grandmother is a Ochiba.

Doitsu 5-1

Look in the picture where i circle, this is what we called "Dragon Bone" in both Japanese and Chinese. I translate it directly from Japanese and Chinese, I know there is no such term in English.

Notice this kohaku's "dragon bone" is very "high and wide / thick", this type of "dragon bone" is a chagoi type "dragon bone". Normally a go-sanke's dragon bone is not that wide/thick.

This kohaku is breed by a breeder in Japan who is trying to use Chagoi to improve the kohakus' body shape.

By the way, she is not fat. If i translate this directly, in Chinese / Japanese we actually call this "bomb body shape". Which is a good body shape for a 75cm or above koi.

I think most term in Japanese can't translate directly into English, so i can see the problem is most koi keeper or even breeder made a mistake think the slim or the fastest growing koi is the one with the best body shape.

By the way, i am just still a beginner and still learning on koi stuff, so i am just sharing what i heard from those Japanese / Chinese forum.

Hope you don't mind.

regards,
Tony
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 4:54 pm

Very Happy Smile Laughing lol!

Quote :
1. Slow growth (3 years old and stil 30cm long)
2. Getting fat very quickly.
3. Internal tumours
4. Damage to the skin and leaves a mark.

1. Some Koi grow fast and some not, Doistu or Wagoi is the same.
I bought this Shusui at 20cm it is 55cm (3years old)
Doitsu Shusui40cmMMilani

2. No prove in that statement.
3. You will find internal tumors in all Koi, specially from "in-breeding"
4. The skin show less damage then a Wagoi!

I purchased this Koi when it was about 35cm. It is now about 70cm, and it jumped out of the pond onto paving, you canít see any damage skin on it at all.
Doitsu DoitsuChagoiM65cm


Quote :
Their colours and clear cut pattern are stunning for koi show purpouses but to keep the good body shape is difficult as they genetically grow fat and short.
Here is some of my big Doitsu Koi:
Doitsu DoitsuTancho40cm
Tancho Sanke Doitsu 55cm

Doitsu HariwakeDoitsuFm78cm
Hariwake Doitsu now 80cm

Doitsu KikusuiFm78cm
Kikusui now 80cm

Doitsu DoitsuKiMatsubaFM70cm
Ki Matsuba now 75cm

Quote :
Doitsu fish have less red and white blood cells - genetically. So it means that they take longer to heal and have a lower blood/oxygen mix and have thus a inferior immune system.
Do they suffer from Leukemia? No prove of this!

Quote :
They develop rinkels when they get older.
So do we! geek

This is all BS! Razz
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 6:10 pm

Quote :
Leather Carp are not just different in appearance to other Carp, but they have distinct genetic differences the main one being the decidedly lower red blood cell count which is responsible for the much slower growth rates when compared to your average Mirror Carp.
http://www.fishing4carp.co.uk/fish_encyclopaedia/Leather_Carp/

Quote :
Leathers have less blood pigment than other carp, giving them their unique appearance. They have a reduced immune system response and are more vulnerable to viruses and are more likely to survive in oxygen depleted waters.
http://www.clawford.co.uk/carp.htm

Ek en altyd gedink leather en mirror is dieselfde" maar lyk my daar is 'n genetise verskil tussen die twee ook, maar beide word duitso geklassifiseer.
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 7:37 pm

Do doitsu Koi's genetics originate in leather or Mirror carp?
All the information I have read say that the origins are in German carp, these could be mirror carp....
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 9:13 pm

Doitsu koi derives either from inbreeding with a mirror carp (scales only on the sides and/or back - normally kikusui, shusui, matsuba, including ogons etc) or leather carp(no scales at all, normally Chagoi, Ogon, Sanke, Showa, Kohaku, Hariwake, Kujaku, Kumonryu (and all other main varieties)

Whether it is from the mirror carp lineage or leather carp lineage, it stays a doitsu koi. (both comes from Germany and was imported to Japan to crossbreed with the Wagoi carp as a food source as far as I know, but I might be wrong.)

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Last edited by Admin on Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 9:13 pm

from this reference it sounds like doitsu koi came from both.

Quote :
At the turn of the 20th century, Koi were crossbred with the scaless and mirror carp from Germany. The Koi Breeders called the new varieties, Doitsu (the Japanese word for German).
http://www.koiacres.com/koi-history.html

Quote :
Doitsu Koi with lines of scales on the back and along the lateral lines are called "Kagami-goi (mirror carp)," and those without scales or with only one line of scales on each side along the base of the dorsal fin, "Kawas-goi (leather carp?)."
http://okanagankoi.com/prod33.html

Quote :
Contrary to popular belief, Leather carp are not Mirror carp without scales; there is a distinct genetic difference. Leather carp are permitted a few scales; however, the dorsal row of scales is either absent or incomplete. Leathers also have reduced numbers of red blood cells, slowing growth rates.
http://wapedia.mobi/en/Mirror_carp


Last edited by wayneb on Wed Jun 03, 2009 9:41 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 9:26 pm

One of my fastest growers of all my fish is a doitsu chagoi(from the leather carp lineage) Imported it a year ago at 20 cm, now 46 cm. I have not seen that the doitsu koi that I import with their Wagoi "partners" from the same batch and size stay behind in growth.

One of the best growth rates I ever had was with this doitsu Matsuba Ogon(from the mirror carp lineage):

Doitsu Tiger3

Transferred from another category:

wayneb wrote:
To much slime is an indication of something irritating the skin of the fish. Check your water params for heavy metals from the rust that could be responsible....but i actually dont know.


I am not a big fan of doitsu kois as i think they are inferior. I have had a couple in the past and not one was free of problems.

I know im going a bit off the issue but want to explain why i say they are inferior.
Doitsu fish have less vertabra than normal wagoi so they tend to be shorter and cant grow big.

The less vertabra also means that they have a funny (wagy) type of swim pattern.

Their colours are stunning for koi show purpouses but to keep the good body shape is difficult as they genetically grow fat.

If they develop a sore it leaves a mark on the skin and they dont have scales to hide it under.

Doitsu fish have less red and white blood cells - genetically. So it means that they take longer to heal and have a lower blood/oxygen mix and have thus a inferior immune system.

Doitsu fish also have less gill filliments than wagois. So their oxygen absorbtion is much more limited that wagois.

The lack of scales to protect them also make them much more vulnerable to water conditions, tempreture changes and medications.

Ek moet se, nog nie die swempatroon van doitsu visse gesien waarna jy verwys nie, en ek het nog nie regtig gevind dat hul immuniteit veel laer is as sy Wagoi weergawe nie, alhoewel die skubbe die Wagoi tog beskerm.

Hulle bly darem maar mooi, alhoewel die Wagoi groter aanhang het onder die koi kitchi's wat skou. Daarteenoor sal die meeste gemiddelde koi entoesias 'n doitsu of twee in hul pond he, en selfs ernstige koi kitchi. Kyk maar na Ernst se Shusui wat by die skou gewen het, en 'n paar Kumonryus by die skou wat pragtig was.

'n Doitsu het nie 'n duk sel kleurplaat nodig om mooi te wees nie. Kyk byvoorbeeld na die Sanke by die laaste skou. Dit hang af waarom jy koi aanhou. Vir die mooi of om te wen by 'n skou. Ek persoonlik hou van 'n variasie.

Doitsu S7

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu   Doitsu Icon_minitimeWed Jun 03, 2009 10:15 pm

Interesting finding for me since importing koi was that my doitsu koi sell much faster than the wagoi koi, although people who only buy the best of the best irrespective of the price, mainly to show, goes for the wagoi go-sanke.

My doitsu ochiba's and doitsu goshiki's are more popular than their wagoi counter parts and doitsu go-sanke, probably because they are not always available and are quite unique.

Photo of one of my doitsu ochiba's taken a few months ago. Much larger and stunning now. It looks as if the pattern was outlined with a black pen. Will take a photo soon.

Doitsu Ochiba

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