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 A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!

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Jan

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PostSubject: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 1:16 pm

Now I wonder!
To explain my befuddlement I believe some background information is necessary.
I am new to this level of Koi spotting! Here is my story:
While we lived in a townhouse I dabbled and stumbled at keeping Koi for a period of five years. These were cheap or donated fish I now believe would not have survived a culling at any half serious Koi breeder. The pool was the size of my recently acquired quarantine setup with submersible pump and filter compartments stocked with hair curlers, pot scorers, sponge layers etc. Only to occasionally see the fish! You get the drift?
Last year we moved house and I decided that it is time for a decent Koi setup, believing that any project needs to be researched to some extent. The saga began!
Reading books on the subject and ploughing through the vast amount of information found on the internet (including KoiForum thank you) I learnt a lot and came to the realisation that I still need to learn a lot. I made some serious conclusions all of which you already know. These include:
• The number one rule - Koi is not for sissies.
• The varieties are mind-boggling and beautiful. I desire to have all!
• Feed your Koi correctly or they will die/ not look nice/ not grow to the size of a small whale etc.
• The Koi must be healthy, KHV is worse than the boogie man or the Tokolosh.
• Pond design, constructing, stocking levels and related issues need to be addressed.
• Maintain excellent water quality and aeration or else disaster!
• This game is going to cost you much more than you will ever imagine. If you still have a choice, ensure that you marry into money (Rockefeller/ Rupert/ Hilton /Oppenheimer).
• And many more (please add to the list).
My now-I-wonder issue follows from the water quality topic.
I learnt from the experts that excellent water quality can be achieved by attending to a number of issues, all of which I will not even attempt to list. I wish to highlight the aeration and filtration issues.
Oxygen saturation can be achieved through the use of venturi’s and waterfalls. At the risk of being assassinated I hesitate to softly say – I don’t think so! In our climate maybe the top so-many cm may be saturated using the mentioned device but what about the rest of the 2 meter deep water feature?
Filtration of the pond water aim to remove all the bad and undesirable things out of the water and deliver clear (so we can admire the Koi) and quality water (so that our Koi will be happy). The approach to filtration can be broadly categories as pressurised (not observed in natural habitat of fish) and non-pressurised (as observed in natural habitat of fish).

At the risk of boring the experts I summarise.
A sand filter is an example of a pressurised filter. My personal experience in maintaining the swimming pool sand filter made me want to avoid this if at all possible. After your swimming pool sand filter has been in operation for some time and of cause backwashed often, open the filter, stir the sand and smell! Chemicals were used to kill bad things I imagine it would be worse with no chemicals. Then there are pressurised canister filters available, but why? Nature does not pressurise filtration systems in lakes and dams where fish live.
Now, non pressurised filters also come in various shapes and sizes. For example; one of the major suppliers offers a 25 l unit suitable for a 3000 l pond. A sales assistant upon enquiry at a Koi shop increased the capacity considerable. It contains a mechanical filter stage (gauge and sponges) and a bacterial stage using some sort of balls. All of this in a compact, neat 25 litre bucket - sounds wonderful. Now the question arise; can the 3000 l be circulated through the unit at the required rate while maintaining adequate contact time to allow the bacteria to do their thing, All this while the water is struggling to pass through the mechanical filtration material and you as the water keeper is struggling to stop the damn thing from clogging up and overflowing.
Definitely a concern, a much larger container is probably necessary maybe even a number thereof.
The variety of types of filters floored me. Which approach should I take?
At this stage consider changing your religion to one that condone bigamy and start looking for a second Rockefeller girl.
Then my mind got totally and utterly bewildered.
Koi inhabit these ponds, the water get filtered mechanical, biologically and then zapped with ultraviolet light for one purpose and one purpose only. We want to keep the Koi, which we stare at in the clean water, happy. In the meantime these beautiful, colourful, tame, valuable etc. creatures are the witches in the story. They eat, drink, burp, fart and do their toilet all in their own living room and we the suckers have to clean it!
Any half serious Koi keeper creates the Koi living room and attaches a sewerage works to it in the form of filters. What must the capacity of this works be?
The amount of waste to be processed and hence the size of the filter system must somehow be related to how much these cute inhabitants of the sewerage works excrete. How much is that?
What we clean and how to test for quality is extensively covered and reported on. The information on how much waste we have to deal with is not very clear to me. Sure, keep stocking levels down; some-number-volume per fish or so-many-cm fish per volume.
The Koi hobbyists (with the-starry-eyed-desire that we observed at the show), expert or dealer who has not, and vows never to break this rule; please take one step forward!

Now let us put things into perspective;
• For me compulsory retirement age is eminent!
• Already have a standing date with my specialist physician reducing my available time to clean ponds and make me wonder for how long the capability will exist. This gentleman and I are already on first name terms and, if the relationship last, will soon invite him and his wife over to inspect my Koi pond.
• I have tried the change of religion and subsequently the Rockefeller’s et al angle. But to no avail; past sell-by date I am told.
• Lastly I have learnt from experience with cleaning sand filters and the previous pond with the sponge filter setup that I would rather sit next to the Koi pond beer in hand contemplating my Koi, life and old age. An old man might not have the strength to look after a pond properly and when Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s step in the toilet might be sparkling while the pond is invaded by all sorts of creatures feeding on the dead Koi.
• The pond must look after itself.
“The dream of a senile old man” the experts all cry in unison!
My search took me to all corners! Then I came across Happy Koi strangely enough their premises are near to my house and not in one of the corners. Their approach to the whole filtration issue made sense to me.
Then my pond started to take shape. The resulting configuration is as follows:
• 7300 litre pond with two 110 mm bottom drains. The small protests are noted. I wanted this pond right outside my study in a courtyard, so space was the constraining factor.
• 460 litre settlement chamber with standpipes for the bottom drains and surface skimmer. That standpipe flood is awe inspiring!
• 210 litre mechanical filter chamber with 100 litre static filter media. Not sponges, netting and the like but Active Bed Bio media, check it out.
• 235 litre Biological filter chamber with 100 litre active media - can go to 160 litre if need be.
• 190 litre pump/polish chamber with two returns to the pond.
• 760 Litre raised vegetation chamber with a waterfall return to the pond.
• Ball valve to automatically add water in case of loss (evaporation leak etc.) and overflow to get rid of excess water (as per Highveld thunderstorm).
• The flow between all chambers is gravity fed through two 110 mm PVC piping.
• Each chamber is permanently plumbed to waste through 50 mm waste valves.
• A 3000 litre per hour submersible pump (not enough flow yes) is installed in the pump chamber to pump water through an overkill 55 watt ultraviolet light into the vegetation chamber.
• 120 litre/min air-pump feeding an air curtain in the pond and airlines with valves to all chambers except the settlement chamber. Open the air valve to a chamber, shake the rubbish around a bit and then open the waste valve. All done with beer in hand, if so desire.
• Now of course the water must move through this whole setup otherwise the water will putrefy and the Koi will go to Koi heaven. They have no hell because they have not been told of such a place and in any case commit no sin, if you excuse them from doing their thing in the middle of their living room. This flow, on HK advice, is achieved through installing two stand pipes in the pump chamber leading straight from the biological chamber. A big air-stone is dropped into each of these two pipes. These pipes reach to normal water level.
• Constant air flow is supplied to the air curtain, biological chamber (to help the bacteria in their endeavours) and to the two air-stones in the standpipes in the pump chamber. Astonishingly the bubbles from the air-stone cause the water to rush up the pipe, pour over the rim and make its way back to the pond through the water returns. And so circulation is achieved.
• The constant airflow into the sewerage works must surely improve the chances of achieving the nirvana of pond aeration.
So at this stage, after having hired a succession of so called construction professionals, the pond has been in operation for five months and seems to be doing fine; can see the Koi and the bottom drains. All those things I have to test for are within acceptable limits. The bit about cleaning the pond with beer in hand proved to be fact and not fiction. The Happy Koi twins of cause collected a share of the Rockefeller et al millions which I am still to marry into.

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0347
Front view

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0338
Back view

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0174
The Bubbles

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0329
What variety is this? Of German decent so Doitsu not Japanese thus inferior!

In any case; I believe the men from Happy Koi applied my funds wisely and imported Japanese Koi. These they promptly, without any shame, proceeded to force me to buy when I, with my own starry-eyed-desire-expression, innocently went to admire these Koi babies. These Koi each have a pedigree that sounds very important and impressive. I noticed that these words are also used by the experts.
I now have eleven Koi in my pond. Two of these are from the batch that escaped the culling process and populated the previous pond.

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0441
The smaller of the young ones with the slit eyes, meaning superior

I am flabbergasted at the growth rate of these fish, overstocking may soon be a concern. According to my calculations (reference Happy Koi) my filter system should be able to support about 80 kg fish at a daily feed rate of 1% of body weight. The “pondcalculator” confirm under-stocking based on the length criteria.
OK I hear the experts protesting in unison; “You are over the legal of some-many fish per such-and-such a value limit!”
Please don’t send the SAKKS Koi-police, blame old age. We will have preciously little time available to deal with them as the Koi pond/swimming-pool-police is evidently eminent to be deployed in our area and they will probably keep us very busy erecting fences and things while not being lenient to even old people like me.
My superior-formerly-wealthy-other-half is being cultivated to allow and also fund the conversion of the swimming pool in order to solve the self inflicted overstocking dilemma. Sadly I know that the solution if implemented will only be temporary. Any Koi show /dealer visit will result in a number of orphaned Koi, held in captivity by you dealers against their wishes, secretly finding their way to my new big Koi pond with salt water, solar heating, chlorinator, Kreepy Krawley and sand filter.

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0444
Could work agree? The inferior one got out of the pond again!

The answer will be to take the hard line and get rid of the overstocking culprits when the time comes. I am not convinced that I have the guts.
Now the old mind did wandered didn’t it? You are probably yawning and asking yourself when I am going to get to the point? That is if you are still reading.

Now here comes now-I-wonder.
One Sunday morning the superior-formerly-wealthy-other-half and I dress and make our way to Gardenex. She; to goggle at plants and other garden goodies. Me; singular minded heading for my first ever Koi exhibition. You youngsters might remember the feeling on Christmas Eve anticipation the arrival of Santa, well something like that.
Upon arrival we ostensibly browse the garden exhibits with me steering doggedly towards the Koi section.
Then we arrive at my destination. All of a sudden I get hit a massive blow right on the forehead, right between the eyes (probably that bully with the big spanner that feature on KoiForum). I stagger; look around again, clean my glasses in an attempt to improve vision.
Not a single filter in sight!
Here we have these, in my eye, extremely valuable beauties gracefully swimming around in the unfiltered exhibition ponds.
Have I been deceived, filtration is not necessary?
We make our way to the dealer stands and observe the same phenomenon. At least I observe that the aeration myth enjoys support.
By now I don’t know which emotion dominates:
• My fear of the wrath of the superior-formerly-wealthy-other-half when she realises that I absolutely squandered the funds. My only hope being the aeration angle to talk me out of that corner, or
• My fury at the Happy Koi twins for conning me out of the funds leaving me to face a poverty stricken retirement with a courtyard full of useless equipment.
Then I find them and their filters. So they believe the same lies that I believe in and they also waste their money on these useless devises. Now it is sympathy not fury any more. I must enquire how they explained to their other-halves.
The experts, exhibitors and dealers bring their Koi to the SAKKS show where:
• There is no filtration.
• The ponds were probably filled some hours before the Koi was introduced and not days as necessary (I was lead to believe).
• The Koi probably stay under these conditions for up to three days. Not to mention the transportation to and from the show.
Yes sure, the water was probably thoroughly treated and tested. My possibly misguided impression is that the bad things can happen to your water within a very short period of time, especially under heavy stocking conditions. What then at the show?
During this bewildering experience I learnt that a jumbo show entrant Koi suffered some unfortunate mishap and had to receive special treatment in an attempt to save its life. This report was later sadly confirmed by the funeral director who conducted the funeral ceremony. Considering the prevailing conditions; I am not surprised.
This is where I now wonder.
Ps. In an feeble attempt to appease and distract the attention from my fund squandering exercise I bought two gold fish and a miniature Koi for my superior-formerly-wealthy-other-half‘s indoor pond. OK again I hear the experts!

A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! 100_0442
Observe the watering can filter and air pump.
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 2:19 pm

Wow, you can write.... - i need a beer. lol!

Your system looks nice and the koi also looks like very good quality. Although the picture are to small to say anyting else.

The filter system for the old & lazy & intelligent koi keeper that you where talking about can be found here and here. The one is for smaller systems while the other is for bigger ponds.

It costs a bit of money but if you have seen how eazy it is to clean you will not pick anything else ever again. A flip of a switch to activate the air, 15 minutes of waiting time (just enought time to finish a beer) then drain the filter and your work is done. No back aching cleaning or messing with water. Clean the filter without getting your hands dity or wet.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeTue May 05, 2009 4:59 pm

Holy Shit Shocked

I would like to answer this in English, but for some bloody reason I can’t come up with the right words not mentioning the grammar Exclamation

So let me answer this in Afrikaans Exclamation

Jan my Maat,
jy klink nou soos daardie ou wat die Bybel gelees het, omdat hy dit wou verstaan! Jy weet seker hy verstaan die Bybel nou glad nie.
Dit is amper soos die arme kleinding wat so verward geraak het in ‘n “topless” kroeg, Pa daar was soveel melk houers!!! Very Happy Weet Pa!!!! Surprised

Ek sien jy praat van die “Ex-perde” Question
Wel kom ek vertel jou ‘n geheim, daar is nie iets soos Koi “ex-perde” nie ( daar is die gene wat so dink - glo my, en hulle glo hulle self) selfs die Japanese sal jou vertel dat hulle na al die jare nog steeds van Koi leer.
Ek is nou nie ‘n “Ex” of ‘n “perd” nie Rolling Eyes , maar jou dam is “over-stock!”
Kalmeer nou net, en laat ek verduidelik hoekom ek so se, 7300lt - 11 Koi = 663,6 lt per Koi, affraid en hulle groei nog, de hell wie wat se, vir my is dit ‘n geval van OORVOL Exclamation

Ek stem saam dat sandfilters nie vir lui ouens is nie, maar ek het baie vir my Koi betaal en ek wil hulle sien, en dit maak dit die moeite werd. ( Moet net niks vir William se nie, die bloody luigat hou niks van sandfilters nie)

Onthou net een ding, dis jou Koi, in jou dam en jy is die een wat hulle elke dag sien, nie die windgat wat jou vertel jou Koi is kak What a Face nie ( dis nou goeie Afrikaans)

Maar voordat ek nou verder iets se om die dwergies by SAKKS weer kwaad te maak, nooi ek jou uit om vir my te kom kuier, dat ek jou tog op die “Geniet Koi de Moer met almal” pad kan plaas.

WELKOM IN DIE KOI WERELD lol!
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 11:09 am

Hi Jan, welcome to the forum. I was one of the dealers at the Gardenex show, and you are making a good point about the fish that have to survive for four days in vats with only oxygen. One could smell ammonia in the air at various dealer stands(and some show vats), mainly because we were limited with water changes. I did only one water change over the whole period of the show. This is one of the problems with an indoor show venue.



However, the koi should have been starved for days ahead of the show, and technically there should be almost nothing to filter with ammonia binders they should be fine with only air stones.



Clearly, not all fish were without food days prior to the show.



I have decided to create some kind of mini filtration for my fish at the next show. Any ideas will be more than welcome. Maybe William can share his concept of air filtration?

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 12:46 pm

Admin wrote:
Hi Jan, welcome to the forum. I was one of the dealers at the Gardenex show, and you are making a good point about the fish that have to survive for four days in vats with only oxygen. One could smell ammonia in the air at various dealer stands(and some show vats), mainly because we were limited with water changes. I did only one water change over the whole period of the show. This is one of the problems with an indoor show venue.



However, the koi should have been starved for days ahead of the show, and technically there should be almost nothing to filter with ammonia binders they should be fine with only air stones.



Clearly, not all fish were without food days prior to the show.



I have decided to create some kind of mini filtration for my fish at the next show. Any ideas will be more than welcome. Maybe William can share his concept of air filtration?

What about just put a bag of Zeolite in the vat?
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 1:04 pm

You can not use zeolite in combination with salt. Salt releases the ammonia from zeolite.

I rather add salt to protect them from nasties that may develop due to the stress involved in moving them to the show and back.

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 1:17 pm

Admin wrote:
You can not use zeolite in combination with salt. Salt releases the ammonia from zeolite.

I rather add salt to protect them from nasties that may develop due to the stress involved in moving them to the show and back.

Sorry, i assumed you will not use any salt.

If you want to add salt, than why not use active bacteria, for example:

AZOO - Super BIO-Bacteria & PSB:

Link:
http://www.azoo.com.tw/azoo_en/modules.php?name=Product_Review&bkid=436
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 1:23 pm

Question: How can bacteria be active in a bottle? It surely needs oxygen? I do not believe in claims around "active" bacteria but you may proof me wrong. I do not know much about the subject.

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 1:26 pm

Admin wrote:
You can not use zeolite in combination with salt. Salt releases the ammonia from zeolite.

I rather add salt to protect them from nasties that may develop due to the stress involved in moving them to the show and back.

By the way, adding salt doesn't mean your koi will be less stressful.

You need to measure the TDS value of the water in the vat first, than add salt until the TDS value reach a certain value which is suitable for koi.

I don't remember the most suitable TDS value for koi from my head now, but if you really want to know. When i go home tonight i can search my hand written notes for it.


Last edited by sas on Wed May 06, 2009 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re:   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 1:33 pm

Admin wrote:
Question: How can bacteria be active in a bottle? It surely needs oxygen? I do not believe in claims around "active" bacteria but you may proof me wrong. I do not know much about the subject.

Maybe you are right, the stuff in the bottle we shouldn't call it "Active".

I just translate it directly from Chinese to English, if you don't like the word "Active" i can call it "Bacteria in a bottle" rather than "Active Bacteria". So, it is just a name after all. You can call this stuff whatever you like in English.

Go back to the topic, i used this stuff before in tank without filtration and it works for me. So, this is why i suggest you try it. But at the end of the day it's your choice, because it is your koi not my koi.
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 4:16 pm

Hi Sass, I am asking the question because I have heard stories of hobbyist who spend thousands of rands on "active bacteria" or bacteria in a bottle, sold to them as an almost miracle treatment who who give instant nutrifying bacteria. I have never received positive reaction on these "bacteria"

I believe it is a money making racket. Yes, you can boost your current bacteria, but bacteria does not come in bottles as far as I am concerned. I might be wrong.

If I want to boost bacteria, I rather add media with active bacteria on it from an established pond so that it can multiply.

It is not really worth while at a show setup, because four days later, you pack up again.

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 4:49 pm

Admin wrote:
Hi Sass, I am asking the question because I have heard stories of hobbyist who spend thousands of rands on "active bacteria" or bacteria in a bottle, sold to them as an almost miracle treatment who who give instant nutrifying bacteria. I have never received positive reaction on these "bacteria"

I believe it is a money making racket. Yes, you can boost your current bacteria, but bacteria does not come in bottles as far as I am concerned. I might be wrong.

If I want to boost bacteria, I rather add media with active bacteria on it from an established pond so that it can multiply.

It is not really worth while at a show setup, because four days later, you pack up again.

Hi Admin,

I can see and understand your concern now. Using this product are not economical for a koi show of just 4 days. And i do agree with you about the economic side.

I used the AZOO and it works for me, and there are so many different brand on the market. So, all i can say is the AZOO do work for me. Similar product from other brand i am not sure if they will work or not.

But if you build an air lift filter, are you going to bring your own matured filter media to the show?

By the way, how big is your Matsunosuke Go-Sanke now? How many do you still have? And will you bring some to the show?

Last time when i go to your farm i can't see them clearly, because the water was not clear.

regards,
sas
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeWed May 06, 2009 10:07 pm

sas wrote:
[
By the way, how big is your Matsunosuke Go-Sanke now? How many do you still have? And will you bring some to the show?

Last time when i go to your farm i can't see them clearly, because the water was not clear.

regards,
sas

Still have 30 left and they are growing fine considering the temperature. Will have some at the show available for sale.

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 8:09 am

Hi Jan,

An absolutely brilliant posting on this forum. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. Thanks - I am still chuckling.

You have the single most important criteria needed for successful koi keeping - a sense of humor.

We have to get together and chat - you are obviously just up the road from me.

With regards the water at the Koi Show at the Gardenex expo - I was in charge of the water quality and if there is anything you would like to know please let me know.

There are one or two points in your posting that need clarification but this can wait for another time as I am still chuckling.

Thanks again
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 8:31 am

Hi,
Some points of interest from the preceding postings:

Salt and zeolite
Whilst zeolite dose adsorb ammonia it takes a saturated salt solution to get it to release this ammonia.
The amount of salt usually used by koi keepers will hardly make an impression on the ammonia in the zeolite. Yes there will be a minimal and slow release of ammonia because the small amount of salt but if your biological filter is working then it will cope with that.

The other question about using zeolite in show ponds.

There are some tests that are being done at the moment with the co-operation and enthusiasm of Happy Koi and my self. We are looking at oxygen levels in show vats and using zeolite in show ponds as they do in Holland.

These are only tests and initially there are a lot of questions coming out of this.

One thing you have to remember about changing things at shows is the water quality and health of the koi are of paramount importance to SAKKS. You also have to approach it with the attitude that if it isn't broken why try to fix it. But let's see at the end of the tests. Its good to explore these things and ask questions.

Happy Koi have already come up with a design and working model of the ideas we discussed at the show and immediately afterwards.

Another point raised above - the ammonia smell at the show.

I believe the fact that the show was held indoors and the fact the the Dome did not switch on the air conditioning (apparently is was not working until the Sunday) was the major source of the ammonia smell.

Koi show held out doors also have an ammonia smell but it dissipates rapidly into the open air. Also we must realize that this smell is not always ammonia - it is a "fish" smell that you get when there is a lot of fish around.

You could smell the ammonia around the three ponds where we experienced mass spawnings.

With regards water changes at the show - some really good ideas are coming out of this experience.

In reply to Jan's question about koi in show ponds with out filtration. A very close watch is kept on water quality and if a rise in ammonia is detected then it is bound/eliminated with very safe chemicals.

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 9:42 am

Chris Neaves wrote:


The other question about using zeolite in show ponds.

There are some tests that are being done at the moment with the co-operation and enthusiasm of Happy Koi and my self. We are looking at oxygen levels in show vats and using zeolite in show ponds as they do in Holland.

These are only tests and initially there are a lot of questions coming out of this.


Hi Chris,

Do you mind share what you found out?

Did the oxygen levels increase or decrease with Zeolite in the show vat?

Thanks.
sas
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 11:44 am

“Oupa” Chris,

If Zeolite is used in a sand filter, how do you clean it?


Last edited by Pieter J de Villiers on Sun May 10, 2009 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jan

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 6:14 pm

wayneb

Thanks Wayne for the kind words

Sorry to have driven you to drink. Perhaps you and I will one day meet at an AA convention and then, after the customary hi-my-name-is-...... greetings, slip out to the closets pub for a pint and then share our Koi horror stories.

As explained lower down I intend to post my Koi-team for comment and suggestion. I am currently locked in negotiations with them with regards to actor remuneration etc.

The filter system that you refer to is very similar to that of the bloody-Lui-gatte from HK (refer Pieter) approach, even down to the media used. I believe we may have a case of plagiarism on hand and one of the parties may be justified to take legal action. Maybe Paul can represent the SA party, we don’t want to lose them right?

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Piet my nuwe-mede-gryskop-maat

Nou het jy my bubble heeltemal in vlarde laat bars! Na wat ek op die Koi forum gelees het, het ek die indruk gekry dat hier ‘n klop GURUS is en dat jy in die voorste ry sit op die foto. Nou wil jy vir my weet te vertel dat jy nie eers ‘n Ex-perd is nie. Nee man los die beskeidenheid vir die naiewes!

Nou goed, ek is nou so dronkgeslaan en verskrik van almal wat my skop en skel oor my te-veel-vis-per-so-en-so laat ek nou as volg besluit het:
Ek sal my hele kroos een van die dae op die-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly tentoonstel sodat julle ex-perde (of jy nou een wil wees of nie) my kan help om ‘n ranglys van ongewenstheid op te stel.

Ek het begin wonder wie se visse nou eintlik in my dam is dankie vir die versekering dat dit wel myne is.

Jou uitnodiging om te kom kuier aanvaar ek graag, baie dankie. Ek sal graag meer van jou ondervindings wil hoor. Wie weet, miskien begin ons ‘n Koi forum splintergroep wat die Koi bybel bestudeer en dan nie verstaan kry nie.

__________________________

Paul

Thanks for the welcome. I surely enjoy this forum of yours and log in often. I feel deprived when I log in and ziltz! (just like Jaco expressed the other day).

We did meet at the show and I admired your Koi. I would have surely bought a bag full of Koi from you if I did not suffer from the following;
• I was to busy looking over my shoulder in fear of the SAKKS Koi-police who is still to arrest me for contravening the stocking level law,
• fearful for the wrath of my other half and
• still had money left after my fund-squandering-on-filter exercise.

By the way does SAKKS Koi-police dress in yellow shirts with lots of badges or are they undercover?

As you see from Chris’ posting he and the HK twins are on the show-filtration case.

__________________________

Chris

Thank you too for your kind words. I am happy to have succeeded in amusing you.

I imagine that it must be a daunting task to try to control the water quality at a show. Especially so if these Koi-buggers wait for the opportunity to have sex in public, and that at a show - of all places - disgusting!

I will realy appreciate the opportunity to meet you, as suggested.

I am looking forward to the clarification(s) you mentioned.

Thanks all.

Jan
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeThu May 07, 2009 8:11 pm

Hi in reply to some questions

sas
It’s much too early to look at the results and analyse them. But there are two different issues being investigated. Firstly, if the oxygen levels can be increased by using the two air stones in the show vats slightly differently from current practice. Using the air lift idea from Happy Koi this may increase the oxygen levels, generate a gentle circulation and eliminate the need to remove the air stones during judging or viewing.

Secondly we are looking at using zeolite to adsorb the ammonia in the show ponds. How much is needed and whether it is at all practical. Currently SAKKS, as do may other society koi shows around the world, uses a very safe chemical to control the ammonia – if it is detected.

Following from these two basic test ideas a very clever portable air lift filter as been developed. It is being tested but at this point in time it appears to work really well. You could move it around or use it on your quarantine pond. It could be used at shows, it could be used by dealers, it could be used on small ponds. The ideas are coming thick and fast from William and Mark.

Quote from Pieter about zeolite in a sand filter and how do you clean it?

Pieter do you mean how do you regenerate it to start adsorbing ammonia again or how do you “clean” it physically?

To clean the trapped solids you simply backwash it as normal. I use a Jacuzzi air blower on my sand filters to air bump the sand bed. Or in this case the zeolite bed.

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeFri May 08, 2009 10:13 am

Jan wrote:
I am happy to have succeeded in amusing you. Thanks all.

Jan

Wel Jan, jy het 'n manier om 'n ding te stel wat enige iemand sal laat giggel.Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder!   A first visit to a Koi show and now I wonder! Icon_minitimeFri May 08, 2009 10:55 am

Chris,

No, I heard that to "recharge" the zeolite it is washed with salt.
About 28g salt per 4,5 liter water is apparently enough for the job
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