Hi,
I thought we talk about Aqua Master Koi Food!
and not about;

Quote :

Olive oil and Garlic is good to bring out the skin luster and to keep parasites away.
Honey contains propolis that is good for cleansing and to bring the white out.

Vit B12 is used to give the kois appatite - so they eat more and therefor grow quicker.

Clasium suppliment is used in conjunction with Vitemin B12 to help build stronger bone structure to prevent deformaties caused due to the ingreased growth rate.

I agree about the garlic, I am the one who starts the garlic thing in SA!

I fully agree with Paul, regarding Aqua Nutro.

Quote :

But the one is a rotten apple and the other fresh dirt - you cant compare.

That’s what you are doing. Frivol away my young friend, shame so much still to learn!

Quote :

Mielies are better for koi that fish, skrimp and kriel meal...hmmm

Maybe I should ask around about the shrimp and kriel (?)outlets at the river, when I go fishing
Every river should have a few On the bottom somewhere

PART 1 (also too big to post)
QUOTE in reference to Corn Gluten: “This is a high protein additive for animal feeds. It is also much cheaper than animal protein sources. So why not use it?”

Another fun fact can be found by doing a search for "corn gluten meal". You will find that it is used as a natural herbicide. Hmmm... It kills other plants. Does anything that we eat that is known to be healthy do this?”

Average Xanthophyll Content of Corn Gluten Meal:
Corn gluten meal, 41 percent protein 175mg/kg
Corn gluten meal, 60 percent protein 290mg/kg
The incorporation of corn gluten meal can produce undesirable pigmentation of the skin

We will not even mention the Melamine issue.... 


QUOTE: “I read the rest of the posting but for the life of me I cannot see any pet food manufacturer driving up and down the highways and by-ways looking for "misc. road kills" to add to their beautifully packaged dog or cat foods.”

Please refer to the link below – Animal Rights Africa would NEVER post something like this if it was untrue! They would be faced with law suits to eternity!

http://www.animalrightsafrica.org/Archive/PetFood/FoodPetsDieForBiophile14FINAL.pdf

I quote for anyone too tired to go to this link:
Some other things that go into rendering to make cat and dog food are:
• Euthanized companion animals — cats and dogs
• Spoiled meat from the supermarket
• Road kill that can’t be buried on the roadside
• The 4 D’s of cattle: dead, dying, diseased and disabled
• Rancid restaurant oil
• When dead animals from cow pastures are picked up, they may not be rendered until up to a week after they are dead. Because of this, it is estimated that E. coli bacteria contaminate more than 50 percent of meat meals.

And if that is not bad enough....

IS THERE CAT AND DOG IN PET FOOD?
Reporter John Eckhouse was one of the first people to discover the practice of sending euthanized pets to the rendering plants. He quoted an employee of Sacramento Rendering as saying, “Thousands and thousands of pounds of dogs and cats are picked up and brought here every day.” When a vet tells a grieving owner that they’ll “take care” of their dead loved one, they usually mean sending it off with the disposal company for rendering. This is all perfectly legal. Many veterinarians and especially shelters don’t have the money to bury or cremate animals. Although many in the pet food industry deny that they use euthanized animals, proof that the practice goes on continues to surface.


QUOTE: I asked you a direct question “am I safe to assume that any koi food which lists maize, corn, etc as a first ingredients is a bad food?” to which your response was.....

“A woman’s guess is much more accurate than a man’s certainty.”

You said yourself
QUOTE:
Take the carbohydrate portion in the diet of koi – koi can digest carbs rather well. But in reality you do not want all the carbs digested and absorbed.


then here you said:

http://www.pondsmagazine.com/ponds-inside-issue/koi-food-411.aspx
“Carbohydrates help a koi’s body process the nutrients from its food. They also provide a small amount of energy, but koi do not use them very efficiently. Carbohydrates should make up about 30 percent of a koi’s diet, Neaves said.”

Here you said that Koi do not use carbs very efficiently? So if I understand you correctly - youa re bascially saying that Yes, they digest them, but then they can not really use them?

So am I safe to assume that any koi food which lists maize, corn, etc as a first ingredients is a bad food?

So I do not understand your answer: “A woman’s guess is much more accurate than a man’s certainty.”

QUOTE and replies alongside:
1) If you have a pathological dislike for corn/maize what would you use as an alternative? WHEATGERM
2) What would you use as a protein source in a fish food? Fishmeal, Shrimp Meal, Polycheate Worms...
3) What would you use as a preservative? Definately not BHA. BHT or Ethoxyquin – has anyone considered that the rate at which we are starting to see tumours in Koi is due to these very preservatives which are banned from Human food use due to them being cancer causing? I would try to use natural preservatives.....fishmeal is already preserved with these horrible preservatives, so I would definitely try and use something else – a tocopherol etc – and I would explain to clients that the food is RX-00 per kg more because we minimise these toxins.
4) Where would the energy portion of the formulation come from? No more than 30% max carbs – and better digested carbs than Corn......... and less toxic than soy..... interesting enough – studies have shown that Carp actually do not utilise energy from Carbs..... Carbohydrate requirement in relation to Energy required - There are several factors which contribute to the low energy requirement of fish. First, the metabolic costs of locomotion are generally considerably lower than those in land animals, and fish do not need the large antigravitational muscles of land animals. Second, unlike mammals and birds, fish are poikilotherms and do not expend metabolic energy in thermoregulation. It is now evident that, in carp, either protein or lipid is the primary requirement rather than carbohydrate (glycogen) and that carp have a considerable capacity of adaptation to glucose metabolism. Carbohydrate does not preceed with protein or lipid as an energy source, but a certain amount is necessary. In another study – it was found that carp are unable to handle over 30% dietary carbohydrate. The reduction of growth at 35% carbohydrate could have been attributed to the altered energy to protein ratio, from 8.83kcal/g protein in 30% carbs to 9.26kcal protein in the 35% carb diet. So it would appear that lipids are better source than carbohydrates for protein sparing, but care must be exercised not to provide too much lipid in diet. During fasting, fish utilize lipids as energy source preferentially over protein or carbohydrates. Severe liver degeneration, excessive glycogen (a starch) deposits on the liver, liver enlargement, and kidney and heart failure can result from the overfeeding of carbohydrates. If it were at all possible I would try and reduce the carbs to less than 30%.

As you yourself stated in your KHA Nutrition Module – “Carbohydrates only represent a minor source of energy for fish. A certain amount of starch or other carbohydrates (e.g. lactose, hemicellulose) is, nevertheless, required to achieve proper physical characteristic of the feed.”

Furuichi and Yone (1981) determined the change in plasma insulin levels during glucose tolerance tests in common carp, red sea bream, and yellowtail. Insulin was measured by a radioimmunoassay procedure using antiskipjack insulin serum (Furuichi et al., 1980). The plasma insulin level reached a maximum about 2 hours after oral glucose administration in each species, paralleling the level of plasma glucose. The researchers point out that the plasma insulin pattern, with respect to both the time to reach maximum level and the maximum activity, was very similar to that observed for a diabetic human.

The prolonged hyperglycemia observed in fish following glucose tolerance tests and the relative inability of fish to utilize high concentrations of dietary carbohydrates has been assumed to be the result of low levels of endogenous insulin (Palmer and Ryman, 1972: Furuichi and Yone, 1982b; Wilson and Poe, 1987). However, the development of radioimmunoassay methods for the determination of insulin levels in fish have shown that these levels are similar to or often higher than those observed in mammals (Plisetskaya, 1990; Mommsen and Plisetskaya, 1991).

The relative intolerance of fish to large doses of exogenous glucose despite the high levels of circulating insulin has been suggested to resemble conditions known as non-insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus rather than insulin-dependent diabetes (Hilton et al., 1987; Hertz et al., 1989).

5) In your previous posting you mention "any koi food that lists maize/corn etc" what is the etc? Ie: Corn, Corn Gluten meal, Corn Distillers Grains, Corn Starch
6) What do you consider a bad koi food? Any food which uses plant proteins as the main ingredients – or as the main protein source. Any food which utilises lots of different carb sources to raise the protein instead of using a decent amount of fishmeal. Any food which uses too many supplements/additives to balance the food due to poor quality ingredients. Any food which exceeds a 40% protein for mature koi – we are not talking about fry which require higher levels. Any food which uses as an example Corn....and then corn gluten meal later down the list etc – as it reeks of ingredient splitting.... I do not believe that sufficient studies have been done on Corn and Koi .....we are already finding out that corn is toxic to humans, dogs, cats, even some birds..... and even cattle (bet not many of you knew that)..... more on corn just now.... Any food which uses “hydrolised feathers etc” – I believe that one should strive towards balancing a food which is closer to what one would eat...be it a dog, cat or fish..or less toxic – ie: wheat contains less phytic acid than corn.
7) What level of amino acids would you hope to achieve in the ideal koi food? This is a difficult question..... the studies to date which are accessible to most people have been done on Carp – in relation to the farming of carp as a food source..... so there is a limited period in which these fish actually live – their main goal is grow as fast as possible in as short a time possible – no concern to the longevity of the fish......Koi as we all know can actually live up to 224 years..... so my concern is that for people formulating feeds using the studies done on Carp, they could be horrifically wrong....... but if you want a general answer – each amino acid is required in different amounts.

As a % of Protein As a % of Dry Diet
Arginine 3.8-4.3 1.6
Histidine 1.4-2.1 0.8
Isoleucine 2.3-2.5 0.9
Leucine 3.3-4.1 1.3
Lysine 5.3-5.7 2.2
Methionine 1.6-3.1 1.2
Phenylalanine 4.9-6.5 2.5
Threonine 3.3-3.9 1.5
Tryptophan 0.3-0.8 0.3
Valine 2.9-3.6 1.4

This varies depending on which book you are reading. But it does not seem to vary by much. Ie: Nutrient Requirements of Fish (1993) lists Arginine as being 1.31% as a % of dry diet....


In an earlier posting you mentioned the one food you trusted was Hikari - why? They have over 100 years of experience.... and they were tasked by NASA to provide fish food for a space shuttle mission.......(this in itself is a little concerning..... why would we want to send fish into space...is something really bad going to happen here on earth – and this is a Noah’s Ark mission – but nothing to do with his thread – just be a little concerned) Their Yamasaki Koi Farm is where they use their own food.....and this is ALL they do....so they have years of experience and knowledge that they are not sharing with anyone! Also, I have never had anything “odd” happen with my fish when they eat Hikari....unlike some of the foods I have tried.....ie: growing funny bellies, whites going milky yellowish or niggly health problems.
9) What would you use or recommend as a carbohydrate source in a koi food? Asked and answered.

PART 2
QUOTE
“Secondly there have to better, valid reasons why you dislike corn.”

There are.....

“The main reason that corn causes obesity is the lectins (antibody-sized proteins/glycoproteins) it contains directly stimulate fat production. These lectins can do a number of things when they attach to a tissue cell. One of the reactions is for the cell to duplicate or hypertrophy, which is what fat cells do in response to corn lectins. The glaring example of this is how corn feeding cattle not only fattens them up but causes them to deposit fat directly into their muscle. Do you want fat in your muscle? Absolutely not. But we do this in order to tenderize the meat, don't we? And how do we accomplish this again? We do this by feeding them- and us- unnatural grains that contain these potentially proteins (lectins).”

“And corn itself is unnatural. In fact, it cannot even reproduce on its own anymore. If we don't plant corn, it disappears...forever (which is not a bad thing except that it may make a good fuel source).

Another fun fact can be found by doing a search for "corn gluten meal". You will find that it is used as a natural herbicide. Hmmm... It kills other plants. Does anything that we eat that is known to be healthy do this?”

“Corn is what they now call a "cultigen". It no longer resembles its ancestors. The origins of corn lie in Middle America. It was later cultivated by the American Indian but something interesting happened whenever corn was introduced into a new population- pellagra broke out.”

“Corn is now being closely studied for its damaging neurological effects, especially in the autistic individual. Once again, certain lectins are capable of killing neurons. We know that gluten can do this in sensitized individuals so we really should not be surprised that corn lectins can do the same thing. High fructose corn syrup is also a neurotoxin.”
Corn is not only Genetically Modified some even have Antibiotic Resistant Markers which could possibly create super diseases. http://www.newspiritservices.com/pesticide.corn.html\

Certain genetically modified corn have been known to kill cattle…
http://www.greenpeace.org/australia/news-and-events/news/GE/toxic-ge-corn-given-thumbs-up

“The StarLink corn is engineered to produce a protein toxic to a common pest, the corn borer. It was cleared for animal feed or industrial products in 1998, but the E.P.A. withheld approval for use in food meant for human consumption because tests showed properties indicating that it might cause allergies.”

Did anyone know that corn is actually toxic to cows? So how do you know that it is not toxic to koi.. especially if the bulk of the diet is made up of corn and they are eating it 365 days a year their whole life? What will the long term effects be in say 20 years? Will they even get there?

“I say a short diet of grain because grain is toxic to cows. Their stomachs can only tolerate it for a short period before it becomes infected, they sicken, and they die.”

“What Happens When Cows are Fed
Once a cow gets to the feedlot, it eats about 25 pounds of corn-based feed each day. As mentioned earlier, cows evolved to eat grass over millions of years and have been eating a corn-based diet for only about 50 years. Evolution hasn’t caught up with the industrialization of the beef industry, meaning that cows have a very difficult time processing the corn, causing particular damage to their digestive and immune systems.

The effects of corn-based feed to a cow’s digestive system is more obviously detrimental to the environment. To be blunt, all cows burp and fart, and those emissions release significant amounts of methane. What corn does is take a cow’s digestive system from neutral to unnaturally acidic. The more upset a cow’s stomach is, the more it emits, and the more toxic its emissions are (particularly its burps). Changing a cow’s diet to one that is more natural to its needs can significantly reduce the amount of methane it releases.1 (Other methods have also been developed. German scientists have developed a pill to cut down on bovine burping.)2
To assist in protecting their immunity, large quantities of prophylactic antibiotics are mixed in with their feed—so much so that the beef and cow-based dairy industry is responsible for 50 percent of the U.S. usage of antibiotics.3 While these antibiotics are preventing many illnesses that would inevitably arise in the unhealthy feedlot environments, they are also having an unintended opposing effect: all these antibiotics are contributing to a rise in drug-resistant “superbugs.”

“Aflatoxin can infect corn by airborne spores in the field during grain filling or during storage and handling. Kernel infection may occur through the silk, cob, or direct contact. Fungus spores overwinter on plant residue on the soil. However, management practices intending to reduce the inoculum level have little impact on aflatoxin development in subsequent years, because the fungus is abundant in the Midsouth nearly every year. “

“Corn is "universally contaminated" with fumonisin and other fungal toxins such as aflatoxin, zearalenone and ochratoxin (Council for Agricultural Science and Technology. Mycotoxins: Risks in Plant, Animal and Human Systems. Task Force Report No. 139. Ames, IA. Jan 2003). Fumonisin and aflatoxin are known for their cancer-causing effects, while zearalenone and ochratoxin cause estrogenic and kidney-related problems, respectively. Just as corn is universally contaminated with mycotoxins, our food supply seems to be universally contaminated with corn--it's everywhere! A typical chicken nugget at a fast food restaurant consists of a nugget of corn-fed chicken that is covered by a corn-based batter that is sweetened with corn syrup!”


In a study on digestibility:
“It was found that in wheat meal the protein had an apparent digestibility of 92%, and the lipid an apparent digestibility of 80%. The apparent digestibility of corn was 81% for protein and 90% for lipid, while for barley the figures were 73% and 67%, respectively. For apparent digestible energy, the figures were 12.39 kJ g−1 for wheat, 6.69 kJ g−1 for barley and 9.32 kJ g−1 for corn.”

Since koi don’t digest carbohydrate well (Ellestad et al. 2002), it is important to use the most digestible carbohydrate-based protein sources. Koi digest wheat germ better than corn, and corn better than rice bran (Degani et al. 1997).

Fish can DIGEST corn. But they do not ASSIMILATE it as well as fish proteins, in fact they might not assimilate it AT ALL if an amino acid is missing from the protein in the food. So companies which have stooped to talk glowingly about corn being "DIGESTABLE" while omitting fair representation of corn's comparatively poor assimilation are being misleading.

About 50–80% of the Phytates in corn is in an organically bound form known as phytate. The phytate P in these products cannot be digested by nonruminant animals and are passed out as phosphorus…. Dissolved reactive phosphorus is usually regarded as the most important factor affecting water quality, because it is most available for phytoplankton growth..

Much of the phosphorus in corn grain is stored in the form of phytate, which is digested poorly by monogastric animals (pigs, poultry, man, etc.) and thus passes through the animal. This results in more phosphorus in the environment, where it can cause nutrient enrichment that stimulates algal growth and thus lowers surface water quality.

Fish excrete phosphorus in soluble and particulate forms. The soluble forms, organic phosphorus and phosphates affect water quality directly. The particulate forms accumulate in the sludge and the phosphorus is released slowly to the water.

Phytic acid combines with key minerals, especially calcium, magnesium, copper, iron, and zinc and prevents their absorption in the intestinal tract.

Plant ingredients have their own limitations due to the presence of phytate for which their inclusion level is restricted. Phytate-rich plant ingredients restrict the bioavailability of phosphorus along with other minerals thereby increasing discharge into water bodies causing algal bloom. Phytate also limits the protein availability to the fish.

Phytic acid which either forms complex with protein or binds with metal ions such as calcium and magnesium inhibiting the absorption of these important minerals (Gohl 1981).
Wheat germ contains very little of the sticky gluten protein

Wheatgerm contains less Phytic Acid than Corn (Soya 2.5%, Corn 2.2%, Wheat Flour 1.37%, Wheatgerm / Oats 1.35% Barley 1.16%, Polished Rice 0.60%)

And then the fat content of corn (or ether extract) content, which is higher than the average of energy feeds.

On the 40% issue – please do not assume that only 2 koi foods in the world have 40% protein…..Ichiban Growth, Yamakoshi, JPD, Takzumi, Ecological Laboratories, and Coppens also have 40% Protein feeds….. and as you are well aware…most high growth foods will have a protein % around the 40% mark….. this was merely a figure a grabbed off the top of my head…. Out of interest I have been doing plenty of “Koi Food Hunting” out there....I have looked at over 36 different Koi food manufactures.

“I” never said that Corn has no nutritional value...... go back and re-read..... leather also has nutritional value....and amino acids......

QUOTE: “The logic is, if it's cheaper, then why not?”
Cheaper is not always better – and the too high carbs issue has already been covered. Koi are not like food fish....... if we want them to live a very long life we need to consider carefully what we feed them and what that impact would or could be in 20+ years. Not like with what we are experiencing now – in terms of other pet nutritions and even ourselves.

QUOTE”
“Costs are a major factor in koi foods as people demand high quality ingredients, are not prepared to pay for them and in reality do not always get them.”
Saki Hikari and EA Show still sell..... I do not think that people are idiots...yes, some can not afford to pay very high prices for Koi Food – but as William said “your most expensive koi is your dead koi”....... How do you pay R10K or R20K or R30K for a fish and then feed it a lesser quality food.....I do think that if everyone understood ingredients and preservative usage etc and you gave them a choice – ie: shall I use BHA and BHT and it would cost RX-XX or should I used some natural preservatives which will decrease shelf life, but it will guarantee you that your fish more than likely will not develop cancer in 5 or 8 or 10 years time.... I think that most will go with the lets pay a little more now....


QUOTE: “Question – what is the difference between wheat flour and corn? Also do they realize the implications of the above statement - having wheatgerm or wheat flour followed by fish meal? If they are listing their ingredients in order of inclusion rate this means they are open about it and there are more carbohydrates in the food than protein. What would you rather have - more protein or more carbohydrate in your koi food?”

Wheat germ is one of the most nutritional products available. In fact, wheat germ contains 23 nutrients, and has more nutrients per ounce than any other vegetable or grain.

Wheat germ is very high in protein. It contains around 28 percent protein and has more protein than can be found in most meat products.

The amount of nutrients that are contained within wheat germ seems endless. It contains more potassium and iron than any other food source. Also found in great quantities are riboflavin, calcium, zinc magnesium and vitamins A, B1 and B3. Vitamins B1 and 3 are very important to maintain energy levels and maintain healthy muscles, organs, hair and skin.

Another important vitamin found in wheat germ is vitamin E. Vitamin E is a very important antioxidant. It is helpful in preventing the body's aging process and also to prevent heart disease. Vitamin E also helps to prevent blood clots and is needed to strengthen the body’s immune system.
And as stated above – it is more digestible than Corn.

PART 3
QUOTE:
"The ingredients listed on a food label are your first clue as to the quality of the food's protein content.”

You disagreed with this..... and I disagree with you...

“A lot of foods out there list 40- 50 + % proteins and a lot of it is derived from animal protein and not the aquatic environment, but they don’t list it, it looks good on paper but the reality is very different. Look at nature, most fish derive any protein they get from the aquatic environment ( zoo plankton even other fish etc) not off the land in most cases. “shokoi impact” koi food protein is derived from feather meal at least they are honest about it so you can make an informed choice.”

Another balanced koi food lists their ingredients as” Starch, Cereals, Meat and Animal By products, Derivatives of Vegetable Origin, Vegetable Oils, Essential Vitamins and Minerals, Colourants, Approved Antioxidants, Spirulina” – and guess what I will not use this food.....
So whilst you are not able to deduce 100% - the label gives you a good idea...

QUOTE: Ingredients should be listed according to their quantities – yes – but many koi foods do not. Analysis of some koi foods has demonstrated around 16% protein and 60% carbohydrate. So if this carbohydrate source in this food was wheat it would be acceptable but if it was corn it would not be acceptable?

No - not acceptable! You seem to be misunderstanding me.

QUOTE: “Soyabean meal – this is another myth and I don’t know why it has arisen. There is a worldwide fish meal shortage. Fish meal is getting expensive and the shortage is getting worse. Many researchers are seeking alternative protein sources as substitutes for fish meal. It has been found that soya bean meal is, so far, the best protein source substitute for fish meal in fish feeds. It was also found that you can substitute some of the fish meal with soya bean meal but only down to a certain point. From there on growth becomes compromised. Wheat germ is also a plant protein source. So is corn with 8% protein. (head for the hills lads!) Some American koi breeders have not even heard of having fish meal in koi foods.”

Approximately 70 percent of the phosphorous in soybean meal and many other feedstuffs of plant origin is in the form of phytate, and its availability to fish is negligible (Ketola, 1985; Ketola, in press).

Phytates act as strong chelators and form protein-phytic acid complexes that may reduce the bioavailability of protein (Spinelli et al., 1983) and minerals, such as zinc, manganese, copper, molybdenum, calcium, magnesium, and iron (O'Dell and Savage, 1960; Rackis, 1974; Smith, 1977). Ketola (1975) postulated that this reduction in mineral bioavailability explains in part the need for additional mineral supplementation in soybean-based diets as compared with those based on fishmeal.

Phytates, in conjunction with high concentrations of dietary calcium, caused a zinc deficiency in chinook salmon fed a diet presumed to be adequate in zinc content (Richardson et al., 1985). The addition of 0.5 percent phytic acid to chemically defined diets fed to rainbow trout resulted in a 10 percent reduction in growth and feed conversion, but had no apparent effect on zinc absorption (Spinelli et al., 1983). The conclusion was that the growth retarding effect of phytic acid was related to reduced protein availability. Gatlin and Wilson (1984b) found that the zinc allowance in natural ingredient catfish diets containing about 50 percent of soybean meal should be increased to about five times the normal requirement for growth.

Protein digestibility tends to be depressed as the concentration of dietary carbohydrate increases (Inaba et al., 1963; Kitamikado et al., 1964a,b; Nose, 1967;

Several studies, however, with common carp (Viola et al., 1982), channel catfish (Robinson et al., 1985; Wilson and Poe, 1985), and rainbow trout (Ketola, 1975; Rumsey and Ketola, 1975; Dabrowski and Wojno, 1977) have indicated that other antinutritional factors in the soybeans may also be responsible.

Factors present in raw soybeans can markedly affect the intestinal tract of animals and influence the digestion and utilization of many nutrients. Inclusion of small amounts of soybean meal will depress growth rate, increase pancreas size, decrease fat absorption, and metabolizable energy of the diet of fish. In addition, it has also been found that the feeding of raw soybeans causes the gall-bladder to contract, increases excretion of bile acids, lowers intestinal proteolytic activity, and affects methionine metabolism. Raw soybeans also contain protein which cause agglutination of red blood cells in vitro. It appears that the haemaglutinins (lectins) of raw soybeans are responsible for some of the decrease in efficiency of feed utilization. Apparently these lectins are all capable of causing release of intestinal membrane-bound lipases and amylases, causing these digestive enzymes to be eliminated in the faeces, thereby reducing their digestive capabilities. Fortunately, all of these factors can be destroyed or reduced to minimal levels by proper heat treatment.

“reduced to minimal levels” – is not good enough for me.....

Soybeans are a prime example of these somewhat problematic feedstuffs. Soybeans contain sufficient crude protein, possess an agreeable amino acid profile, and are readily available at low cost. Soybeans have been demonstrated as effective protein sources for omnivorous and herbivorous finfishes (Adelizi et al. 1998; Boonyaratpalin et al. 1998; Quartararo et al. 1998; Arndt et al. 1999; Elangovan and Shim 2000; Refstie et al. 2001); however, low lysine and methionine levels, high fiber content, and antinutritional factors including protease inhibitors, lectins, phytic acid, saponins, phytoestrogens, antivitamins, and allergens (Francis et al. 2001) limit inclusion rates of soybeans as protein sources for some finfish diets.

Soy-derived trypsin inhibitors, for example, have been shown to negatively affect growth and feed utilization in rainbow trout (Sandholm et al. 1976) and grass carp Ctenopharyngodonidella (Dabrowski and Kozak 1979), Phytate, also present in soybeans, has been shown to bind minerals, thereby limiting mineral availability (Erdman 1979; Richardson et al. 1985; Satoh et al. 1989). Reduced mineral availability due to phytate binding has been shown to affect weight gain, feed efficiency, and
mineral bioavailability, as well as cause cataract formation in finfish (Spinelli et al. 1983; Richardson et al. 1985; McClain and Gatlin 1988; Gatlin and Phillips 1989; Satoh et al. 1989; Gifford and Clydesdale 1990; Papatryphon et al. 1999).

Decreased mineral availability is a nutritional concern, but as with amino acids, poor uptake is also a waste management concern because reduced uptake rates in vivo result in higher mineral concentrations in effluents.

Phosphorus is particularly troublesome in this respect because phosphorus-laden wastewater can cause eutrophication receiving waters, which is generally undesirable. Several means of avoiding antinutritional effects of plant-derived protein sources have been suggested, including processing treatments to destroy antinutritional compounds, dietary incorporation of enzymes to break down phytate, and the use of genetically improved grains and oilseeds. Processing modifications (heat treatments and extraction procedures) successfully reduce the antinutritional effects of trypsin inhibitors in soybean and other plant-derived products (Mwachireya et al. 1999; El-Sayed et al. 2000; Cheng and Hardy 2003); however, this may be coupled with decreased protein solubility (Arndt et al. 1999) and mineral availability (Cheng and Hardy 2003).


QUOTE: “You are now getting personal about my formulation. I do not divulge the intricacies of Shogun in public just as Hikari, Tetra and Aqua Master would not.”

Quote from Duncan Griffith
“Many makers list the contents and in particular the CRUDE Protein, it may read crude protein 55%, lipids 8% carbohydrate 33% ash 4% usually about this time they slide into the list white fish meal, krill, Soya ETC they then carry the list on, vitamins ETC, but never really tell you how much the white fish meal contributes to the mix

So it’s conceivable that a food with lower protein content can be better than one with so called higher protein content, if the amino acid profile matches up with what the fish actually need.

What it should say on the pack is Crude protein 55%. Of which 45% is derived from: fish meal. Krill, anchovy and all other good stuff. then carbohydrate vitamins etc. Then you know the other 10% protein is derived largely from the carbohydrate element. But perhaps manufacturers will not tell this as this would be disclosing some key elements of their formulation (relative to costs) the other 10% would be another protein source. Perhaps: chicken meal, feather meal, blood meal – something that sounds really grotty and unromantic which the manufacturer does not want to disclose for marketing purposes.

Toe nail cuttings are protein but you would not want to eat them .

In short if you buy a food that says crude protein at 44% and does not tell what this is derived from or at least what the majority is made up from, it’s telling you nothing or at least only half of the truth!). It’s just telling you that there is 44% protein in there.”

“This post is not going to change the industry into full disclosure but I think we are entitled to know what goes into the food we are spending our hard earned on.”

PART 4

QUOTE:
“Where you get the amino acids from is not critical so long as you match what the animal needs. (big gap here for anyone wishing to join the debate)”

When you say that it does not matter where the protein comes from as Amino Acids are Amino Acids etc – this is a very broad statement….if you take a cat for instance…. Cats have been found to die from diets with high carbs….. and I clarify this further…. Carbs used as a form of protein! You can not say that all amino acids are the same regardless of where they came from… how do you know? You know this from a database ….. not from 100’s of years of research of feeding those same ingredients to the same species………

In a study which was done:
Young carp, Cyprinus carpio, were shown to be unable to grow on diets in which the protein component (casein, gelatin) was replaced by a mixture of amino acids similar in overall composition. A trypsin hydrolyzate of casein was equally ineffective. However, if a diet containing free amino acids as the protein component is carefully neutralized with NaOH to pH 6.5-6.7 then some growth of young carp does occur. This growth was markedly inferior to that occurring on a comparable casein diet under the same conditions.

Also:
For example, it is well known that cold-water fishes to not utilize carbohydrates as energy sources as well as do warm-water species; digestibility of phosphorus is less for fish than for livestock, especially for fish without gastric secretions in the digestive tract (Nose and Arai, 1976); and the lysine in cottonseed meal is less digestible than the lysine in soybean meal (Wilson et al., 1981).




Paul and Pieter

On Aquanutro’s main ingredient.

Sorry! It is not fishmeal. Ingredients are ALWAYS listed in terms of the highest % working down to the lowest %. So if we look at the label – the highest ingredient is Wheat (ie: what is in the food in the largest quantity) – followed by Fishmeal – followed by Yellow Maize, then Soybeans etc. This is just how it works.....

Wheat, Fish meal, Yellow maize, Canola, Soybeans, Lysine, Methionine, Alfalfa, Rooibos, Lime, Sodium chloride, Vitamins, Minerals, Emulsifier, Natural antioxidants, Immune stimulant, Prebiotics, Palatability enhancer, Colourants, Spirulina.
Crude Protein, not less than 320 g/kg
Crude Fat, not less than 50 g/kg
Crude Fibre, not more than 40 g/kg
Calcium, not more than 30 g/kg
Phosphorous, not less than 7 g/kg
If you would look at the ingredients fishmeal is the second ingredient – In my humble opinion I would assume that the use of Soybeans 5th on the list is to bump up the protein level of the food – so if you asked my humble opinion (and that is all it is) the amount of fishmeal in this formula would be very little......


So to get to a 32% protein with ingredients like.....

Wheat has approximately the following:
12.9% Protein
1.7% Crude Fat
2.5% Crude Fibre
1.6% Ash

White Fishmeal (as we do not know what type of fishmeal is used)
62.3% Protein
5% Crude Fat
0.5% Crude Fibre
21.3% Ash

Yellow Maize has approx the following
8.5% Protein
3.6% Crude Fat
2.3% Crude Fibre
1.3% Ash

Canola – do not say whether this is an oil or meal

Soybeans Steam Cooked has approximately the following
38% Protein
18% Crude Fat
5% Crude Fibre
4.5% Ash

So can you see why I would assume that the Soybeans are in there to bump up the protein..... there is (in my very humble opinion – which I could be completely wrong) no other really good reason for them to be in there..... You already have Wheat as the largest % of the food and also Yellow Maize (as a 3rd ingredient) and they are the “energy, (I did this for you Chris) carbs, fillers and delivery system” – which in my humble opinion they should not be forming the protein % required....... so in my tiny little brain I would therefore jump to massive conclusions and say – well there can not be very much fishmeal in here.......I would also be looking at the additional Lysine and Methionine that is being added......... why do they have to add additional?

White fishmeal contains on average 4.53% Lysine and Methionine 1.68% - if we look at the book “Nutrient requirements for fish” – they state that Carp require 1.74% and that Cystine and Methionine combined is 0.84%....

Wheat has 0.21% and 0.36% respectively
Corn has 0.25% and 0.17% respectively
Soybeans has 2.24% and 0.46% respectively

So I naturally would question the % of Fish Meal.....


Maybe I am just misunderstanding everything..................

I don’t know what to say, I am speechless, all this information would Kill my Koi for sure!

Lol, anyone want to summarise?

What about; if they eat it, then feed it!
If they die, what the hell give it another try!
We all know that pigs can’t fly,
So, no special food for Koi, Good Bye!

I have seen a pig on the roof........ the swine flu

Lots of jokes i see. - You are all missing the boat completly.

It is your right as a consumer to dammand better (not best) quality koi foods at acceptable prices.

I was hoping that out of this discussion suggestions and recommendations would arrise ragarding what ingredients to use in a "Premium" local koi food.

Pieter is right that imported foods loose some of the nutritional value - i can't deny this... But what is stopping us in this country from making a food simular to Hikari based on the same ingredients and same nutritunal values with the same results. My guess one or combinations of the following : greed, lack of knowledge, dont care attitude, cost involved, Scared to take the risk, being happy to please the masses.

Making a food like that locally would mean that you could cut out the middle man and shipping costs....meaning a cheaper and better product for all. Yes it would be more expensive - so make two version of food - the normal one for the masses and the one for the Hardcore koi keeper.

Do the right thing for koi.

W

OK just to confuse thing a bit I am a partner in a company that imports and is the sole agent for Omega Sea foods: http://www.omegasea.net/ see the site and you'll understand the difference between this and other foods.
So far we have not bought in the koi food because it is expensive and since it is not made in Japan would anyone spend alot of money on it I wonder? Obviously it really bugs me that right now I'm feeding my fish on some one elses food, so I think I may try it. My question is would anyone be interested in it other than me, and what would you be prepared to spend on Koi food and do you think this sounds like good stuff? Because right now I have an open mind on this whole topic in general when it comes to Koi.

That was the abreviated version



Gerald - Hi!

I looked at the Omega range of foods in March of last year..... I was considering it - I was talking with Henk Hugo (I got side tracked as my Step Daughter - 16 - was involved in a very serious car accident and then for most of last year I was taking care of her)

If I recall correctly - you use Alaskan Salmon etc - around then I was quoted somewhere in the region of R 222-00 per 500g (you work in pounds - so that was converting the 1.1lb bags). What is the pricing now? and if there is more than sufficient people who want to try it - can you be more flexible on the pricing - as an example if a whole bunch are prepared to take at least 6 months supply at a time.... I have dug through my PC - but somehow I can not find where I put the info on the food.

Can you post the info here for all to see......

Quote :

So far we have not bought in the koi food because it is expensive and since it is not made in Japan would anyone spend alot of money on it I wonder? Obviously it really bugs me that right now I'm feeding my fish on some one elses food, so I think I may try it

If the ingredients and nutritional values are correct and the price not to expensive then i will buy it.

What would the price be like?

Quote From koicare -
“If I recall correctly - you use Alaskan Salmon etc - around then I was quoted somewhere in the region of R 222-00 per 500g”

Quote From Wayne
"If the ingredients and nutritional values are correct and the price not to expensive then i will buy it."

"What would the price be like?"

A quick calculation based on the old price quoted above and in the quantities Wayne buys –
R222 per 500g = R8,880.00 per 20kg bag (not sure if includes or excludes vat)

Chris

I'll discuss it with Henk next week and find out what prices are like, but I assume they'll be roughly 15% up from last year.
Another point... are people concerned as to whether they feed sticks or pellets?

Hi koicare,

Please check the ingredients order, the ingredients such as wheat gluten, the preservatives and carbohydrates used in Omega pond food as per the link. It is obviously a brilliant food - I especially like the use of pigments from the flesh of the salmon as colour enhancers - a very interesting concept - I must look into that - but it seems to contradict everything you have said.

Kind regards,
Chris

Hi koicare,

Before you get on your high horse and let me have it with a 30,000 word reply (you are worse than I am! <grin>) - do not misunderstand me, do not mistrust me - what I am saying in my previous posting and I have been arguing with you, playing devils advocate, is that you can make a very good koi food with ingredients other than the very few you approve of.

And you can get very good results.

Kind regards,
Chris

Gerald - I gotta be honest with you.....I dunno how many people will be able to afford it....... I am hoping that you are going to say something like - this was the price for the case - which contained 6 packets each 500g - or something like that.......

Chris - I can not find the info I had on the food - and it was more than a year ago, so I do not know if anything changed.... I just recall the "Alaskan Salmon" - well at least I think I do...... I hope I have not wiped the info when I got this new piece of "intersting stuff" PC!

I will have to go back to the link.

I am giggling....
I found the email I originally sent to Loretta at OmegaSea - before they put Henk onto me........

In the email (I did not know that there was a South African representative)..... I asked for pricing and then I also asked (amongst other questions)

If some changes could be made to the food and whether (LOL) they could add in Garlic, Propolis, Beta Glucans and Neocleotides.....

.........................Like I do not ask for much.......

Then Henk emailed me with the pricing.....

To be honest I did not pick up the preservative....... neither the Gluten......... can not imagine how I missed it........ perhaps I was too focused on the Whole Alaskan Salmon.......

And to be honest I have enjoyed debating these subjects with you.
I have learned a lot.

Regards,
Chris

Yes I expect it won't be something for the majority of people. I do use Omega foods with my other fish very successfully, so I'll see if I can get some even if it's just for my koi.

If you really want to laugh...I even asked them for the %'s of Amino Acids and Vitamins and Minerals etc etc.......

Ya, you can laugh...... I do not have any information on the Nutritional Composition of "Whole Alaskan Salmon" and I wanted to know what is in the food....

Crazy Woman - huh

Well you'll be pleased to know Omega is the only place you'll find Black Cod outside Nobu in South Africa!

Quote :

A quick calculation based on the old price quoted above and in the quantities Wayne buys –
R222 per 500g = R8,880.00 per 20kg bag (not sure if includes or excludes vat)

WHAT!!! Theres no way ill be able to pay that per month. - CRAZYYYYYYY! You know that is more than some people earn in a month!!

That cant be right.

Ill rather stick to my Aqua MAster & Shogun Mix in that case.

I doubt you can get a 20kg bag but obviously in those quantities there would be a different priceing structure.
To be honest are we not splitting hairs with this debate, are koi really that far removed from carp, should people not rather be adding natural foods to their diet, snails, earthworms, shrimp, lettuce, etc?