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 Doitsu Ochiba Shigure

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PostSubject: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:49 am

What do you think of my latest addition?

The tamest fish in my pond and still so small (24cm)


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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:03 am

Hi, Admin

Is this tosai an import from Japan?

The pattern is a personal choice. From looking at the tall section, the body shape is ok.

From looking at the head, i don't think this tosai will have very good growth rate.

Male or female is difficult to tell at this size / age, but i guess is a female.

But maybe all my comments are wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 9:40 am

It is a Tosai from Hiroi. For Tosai imports to be 24 cm at this stage is good. So I expect a good growth rate, especially because it is a very tame Ochiba.

I think the bodyshape is good, the only demerit would be the relative small patterns at the back and the darkish head. Fortunately the head is not as dark as it appears on the photo.

What strikes me about the patterns, is the dark, almost black, outline thereof, and the "kuchibeni" (pattern on the nose) makes it interesting and more balanced.

For Ochiba, the pattern might be a bit dark, but I like the almost meroon (Unique) colour thereof.

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:54 pm

Admin wrote:
It is a Tosai from Hiroi. For Tosai imports to be 24 cm at this stage is good. So I expect a good growth rate, especially because it is a very tame Ochiba.

I think the bodyshape is good, the only demerit would be the relative small patterns at the back and the darkish head. Fortunately the head is not as dark as it appears on the photo.

What strikes me about the patterns, is the dark, almost black, outline thereof, and the "kuchibeni" (pattern on the nose) makes it interesting and more balanced.

For Ochiba, the pattern might be a bit dark, but I like the almost meroon (Unique) colour thereof.


Hi, Admin

I just want to share my thoughts, so if i said anything wrong please forgive me. Embarassed

In Niigata, koi normally spawn more or least between June - August (It vary on different koi farms).

And at above 20 cm, this Ochiba can't be born in 2008's spawning season. So, I guess this Ochiba you got is born in 2007's spawning, so it is most likely that this Ochiba is more than 12 months old already (Nisai = 1 to 2 years old koi).

Maybe according to koi born in South Africa standard, 24cm is big for a Tosai. But in Japan it is very common that we can see Tosai above 30cm.

In China, i even seen Tosai about 40cm and Nisai above 70cm. And Tosai above 40cm in China is not very rare.
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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:03 pm

Just want to give you an idea, the following pictures are koi born in 2008's breeding season taken in Japan at August. This is what the baby koi should alreday looks like at in August:













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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:06 pm

I am just sharing my thoughts, hope you don't mind. Embarassed

Sorry, bigger photos are posted here:













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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:08 pm













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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:15 pm

sas wrote:

And at above 20 cm, this Ochiba can't be born in 2008's spawning season. So, I guess this Ochiba you got is born in 2007's spawning, so it is most likely that this Ochiba is more than 12 months old already (Nisai = 1 to 2 years old koi).


This one is from the 2008 season and definately not 2007. I imported it with 300 more Tosai from Hiroi and their current sizes from the 2008 season range between 17 cm and 24 cm. Hiroi and my agent will not sell me Tosai if it is Nisai.

The Ochiba is one of the largest of the batch, and that is why I say that I can expect a good growth rate.

If it was a Nisai,(coming from the 2007 season) it would have been at least 40 cm.

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:28 pm

Admin wrote:
sas wrote:

And at above 20 cm, this Ochiba can't be born in 2008's spawning season. So, I guess this Ochiba you got is born in 2007's spawning, so it is most likely that this Ochiba is more than 12 months old already (Nisai = 1 to 2 years old koi).


This one is from the 2008 season and definately not 2007. I imported it with 300 more Tosai from Hiroi and their current sizes from the 2008 season range between 17 cm and 24 cm. Hiroi and my agent will not sell me Tosai if it is Nisai.

The Ochiba is one of the largest of the batch, and that is why I say that I can expect a good growth rate.

If it was a Nisai,(coming from the 2007 season) it would have been at least 40 cm.

When you make your orders, it was +- 3 months ago. So, your agent didn't lie to you. 3 months ago it was still a Tosai (11 to 12 months old koi). But now they are are 12 months plus, so they are not Tosai any more.

And i believe the 2008 breeding season's Tosai will only start to export at March - April. So, this is why i guess this Ochiba is from the 2007 breeding season.

But maybe i am wrong. Embarassed I guess you know more than me about what you imported. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:13 pm

Spawning in Niigata (where Hiroi is situated), already starts during May. That give you 8 months. The average koi after 8 months is 18 cm and in ideal circumstances, 24 cm. The Ochiba is 24 cm.

Herewith another photo from the same batch, the largest of the batch, already 25 cm (after approximately 8 months)


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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:07 pm

Admin wrote:
Spawning in Niigata (where Hiroi is situated), already starts during May. That give you 8 months. The average koi after 8 months is 18 cm and in ideal circumstances, 24 cm. The Ochiba is 24 cm.

Herewith another photo from the same batch, the largest of the batch, already 25 cm (after approximately 8 months)


Oh, i am sorry. I guess you know what you are doing. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:31 pm

Hi, Admin

But one thing that i don't understand, and if you can please teach me why the biggest Tosai that "Conias = Hiroi" selling at the moment is only 20cm to 22cm??? scratch

I am just curious..... scratch

Reference:
http://www.ornafish.com/site.php?d=voorraad&cr_naam=&cr_type=Tosai&cr_kweker_id=983714096&cr_kwaliteit=
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PostSubject: Re:   Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm

And your Tosai stay in a high density small quaratine facility for 2 months, how come your Tosai will be bigger than the Tosai raise in the breeder's farm or green house??? scratch

I am just curious, that is why i ask.... scratch scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:37 pm

But anyway, i always trusted. Because i know you are a good koi dealer.

So, i will believe everthing you told me. Very Happy

I hope i didn't cause any bad feelings between me and you. Very Happy

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:38 pm

But anyway, i will always trust you. Because i know you are a good koi dealer and a good gentleman.

So, i will believe everthing you told me. Very Happy

I hope i didn't cause any bad feelings between me and you. Very Happy

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Fri Jan 16, 2009 8:44 am

sas wrote:
Hi, Admin

But one thing that i don't understand, and if you can please teach me why the biggest Tosai that "Conias = Hiroi" selling at the moment is only 20cm to 22cm??? scratch

I am just curious..... scratch

Reference:
http://www.ornafish.com/site.php?d=voorraad&cr_naam=&cr_type=Tosai&cr_kweker_id=983714096&cr_kwaliteit=

Hiroi offered Tosai between 17 - 22 and 22 - 25 cm during November 2008. They do not sell Tosai at the moment.

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:14 am

Admin wrote:
sas wrote:
Hi, Admin

But one thing that i don't understand, and if you can please teach me why the biggest Tosai that "Conias = Hiroi" selling at the moment is only 20cm to 22cm??? scratch

I am just curious..... scratch

Reference:
http://www.ornafish.com/site.php?d=voorraad&cr_naam=&cr_type=Tosai&cr_kweker_id=983714096&cr_kwaliteit=

Hiroi offered Tosai between 17 - 22 and 22 - 25 cm during November 2008. They do not sell Tosai at the moment.

But in the follwoing link:

http://www.ornafish.com/site.php?d=voorraad&cr_naam=&cr_type=Tosai&cr_kweker_id=983714096&cr_kwaliteit=

This is what Hiroi or at least the agent "Oranfish International" selling at the moment.

But i think we should just close or even delete this topic, because if this topic carry on we will just end up having bad feelings between each other.

Thanks.
SAS
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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:41 am

I cant see any reason for bad feelings Sass. We are purely discussing a topic.

By the way, I am the sole agent for Ornafish International in South Africa (see their exclusive dealer list), and although they still offer Hiroi Tosai on their site, I took the last of their stock.

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PostSubject: Re: Doitsu Ochiba Shigure   Fri Jan 16, 2009 10:10 am

Admin wrote:
I cant see any reason for bad feelings Sass. We are purely discussing a topic.

By the way, I am the sole agent for Ornafish International in South Africa (see their exclusive dealer list), and although they still offer Hiroi Tosai on their site, I took the last of their stock.

OH, i see. Sorry, Admin. Embarassed I think there were just some misunderstanding.

Thanks. Very Happy
SAS
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