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cam0



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PostSubject: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyTue Mar 24, 2009 5:08 pm

Hi all,

I am quite new to koi and would like to find out a few things:

Are leaf skimmers connected to the bottom drain or pump? Are fish not sucked into the leaf skimmer? Do you add a mesh or something?

How do protein skimmers work and their purpose?
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Marius Bezuidenhout

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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Mar 25, 2009 7:41 am

I have a settlement chamber next to my pond. Both my bottom drain pipe and skimmer runs into this chamber. In between the 'inlets' and output to my pump I have a Matala sheet so keep the big 'badies' on the one side. On the pump pipe I use a Matala pre-filter of higher density to try and keep most of the smaller debri out before it reach my pump. Once a week I 'vacuum' the primary side of the chamber (uses less water than draining the chamber. Simple job. Switch pump off and take sheet out to clean. In the meantime everything settles and after cleaning sheet you can vacuum chamber)
I use a 'drain box' from builder’s warehouse as a leaf skimmer. About R45. The holes are big enough to catch the leafs and water flow seems to be slow enough not sucking fish in. Only problem is that it tends to suck food in before it is eaten. I have spotted an area in my pond to add food that takes longer before it reaches the leaf catcher.
Some people connect the bottom drain and skimmer via the same pipe to the pump and rely on the pump basket to catch the large leaves.
I don’t use a protein skimmer because I believe that you won’t have protein on water once properties settle. When I was in SA last month I had protein on water after adding 90kg of salt after then I fitted my new filter media. About a week later the foam went away.
My believe is not to interfere with nature. Most things will settle in time but this does not mean that you must sit back with a beer and relax. VERY important to check water parameters and be on the look out for any problems with fish. To do it in the proper way might not always be easy but then again it is a great hobby and cleaning the pond, giving medicine and and and should be a pleasure not a pain where ever.
You can view the setup under 'All your questions about filtration answered' and I think the sub heading is ' probleme met my 30000L dam' or something like that
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Mar 25, 2009 8:09 am

Hi cam0

You always have seperate lines for all suction lines. If you connect the skimmer line to the bottom drain line, chances are that your bottom drain is not going to work and that the majority of water is going to be sucked from the skimmer.

1.If you suck directly from the skimmer and bottom drain you will have to have 2 lines leading to the pump with ball valves on each as to control the flow. Put the ball valves as close as you can to the pump as to make it easier for yourself down the road.

2.if you suck from a settlement chamber (where your bottom drain is suppose to be connected to) you can add a gravity fed skimmer into the settlement chamber as long as the settlement chamber is next to the pond. Then you suck only from the one line (settlement chamber)

3.My personal favourite is a mixture of both; take the bottom drain line to the settlment chamber. Then to take the settlement chamber suction line directly to the pump and to have the skimmer line also directly connected to the pump, with ball valves on each. That way you can control the suction.

Remember to check what size your suction line is of your pump and then increase the suction lines to the pump with one size. So if the pump has a suction size of 40mm use 50mm piping to the skimmer and settlement chamber.

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyThu Mar 26, 2009 11:58 am

Thanks for the replies.

I am currently expanding my current pond from 3000 litres to roughly 9000 litres.

It is currently 3 X 1 X 1 and i'm going to change it to 3 X 2 X 1.5.

The pond currently does not have a bottom drain and it working through a 8000l/h submersible pump which goes through a 8watt uv light into a 25 litre ultrazap pressure filter (with some sponge thing for mechanical filtration and about half of it filled with plastic bioballs) and then back through a venturi in the pond.

Would you recommend I go external pump/sand filter for the 9000 litre or could I get away with installing a bottom drain to a settlement chamber where the submersible pump will sit pumping the water through the uv light and 25l pressure filter?

Thanks,
Cameron
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Marius Bezuidenhout

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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyThu Mar 26, 2009 1:06 pm

Since you are going to make your pond wider and deeper; why not fitting a drain and skimmer at the same time. Will give you less hassles in the long run and the bottom should stay clean and leaves will the caught by skimmer before they sink. The 8000L/h flow rate will give a turn over rate of just over an hour which should be good on that size pond.
Only concern is that your UV will be too small for the bigger pond, and the flow rate to fast. Some people believe in Sand filters and I use a 2bag filter on my 4000L pond. Water is crystal clear but since I don’t have a proper pre-filter it clogs up very fast and has to backwash it twice a week and every 3months I have to take gravel out to clean. Must admit I have plenty small leaves falling into pond 24/7.
My larger pond is far less of a problem since I use 2 x drains, skimmer, 3 x 55W UV’s. Had plenty green water in beginning but it all cleared in a few days since the UV’s. Remember to replace the UV tube every 10 – 12 months. I also tapped the power going to my UV on/off switch from the output of my pump's switch. By doing it this way the UV's will switch off whenever I turn the pump off. Doing it this way will protect the tubes from burning out when no water flow is present.

Specs on Ultra Zap UV’s

8W Pond Capacity= 8000L with 2400L/h max flow
15W Pond Capacity=15000L with 3600L/h max flow
30W Pond Capacity=30000L with 8400L/h max flow
55W Pond Capacity=55000L with 18000L/h max flow
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyThu Mar 26, 2009 3:08 pm

Hi,

The settlement chamber should act as mechanical filtration correct?

I was thinking of then changing the bio media into shells or some other form which has a larger surface area.

My problem currently lies with my pressure filter getting really dirty as it is acting as mechanical as well and I would prefer it to be completely biological.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyThu Mar 26, 2009 4:50 pm

I had the same problem with my small pond. Everything ended up in my sand filter but that is now I learned. I use Matala sheets in my large pond now and seem to be work well but expensive. Wayne uses Kaldness with a big surface area that seems to work very well with little effort to clean. You can visit the Happy Koi website. About R800 for 50L. It is always good to keep the big stuff away from your Bio filter with some sort of mechanical filtering. I have spent a lot of money on Matala but it seems to work fine till now. You get different density sheets that will act as mechanical filter and later on as Bio media and I have 4 x 1000L filter chambers in a 30000L pond but I had my reasons building a filter of that size and one is because my pond is located in an ugly part of the garden, so the filters acts as a barrier at the same time. Try to fit a proper mechanical filter before the bio stage. This can be sheets, shading cloth or any thing preferred. I had shading cloth in my chambers but I had a top-in and top-out filter system so most things bypassed the filter. Breeding nest for all sorts of badies and the nets stinks like hell. Modified my chambers to be an up flow system now. All sheets are under water with a gap of about 30cm at the bottom in each chamber. Water flow is equal in all chambers, and no channeling around any part of the sheets. Installed it about a month ago and no problems yet. Will see in the long run but I try my best to keep big bits in settlement chamber and clean it once a week. Hopefully the chambers will stay clean with little effort.
Submersible pumps tend to get clogged in a blink of an eye and a pain to clean. I prefer to use something that is above ground for easy maintenance
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyThu Mar 26, 2009 5:23 pm

Hi CamO

This is propably the most complete and detailed website about pond construction. http://www.koicymru.co.uk/construct.htm I found that it explained everything.

If i can just give you some guidelines..

1. If you use a pressure sysem then your mechanical is after the pump and the bio filtration after the mechanical. A sand filter is only a mechanical filter.

2. If you use a gravity system your mechanical is before the pump and the bio logical is between the mechanical and the pump.

3. Depending on how powerfull your pump is you can have a mixture of both with mecanical infront of the pump, biological after the mechanical and before the pump, swimmong pool sand filter after the pump (acts as a polisher)
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyFri Mar 27, 2009 8:59 am

Thanks for your replies guys. Really appreciate it.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 10:52 am

Ok so after a bit more research on that site you recommended and among other i've decided to try my luck at a DIY trickle filter.

The design will come from the following diagram I found on the web relating to DIY trickle filters:

Newbie Questions Filter-mark

Do you think this filter will be effective? How many litres should the trickle filtre container be to accomodate a 9000 litre pond? I was thinking of using my 25 litre ultrazap filter in series with the trickle filter as the pressure will be available from the pool pump.

I will be changing my setup to a gravity fed system using a skimmer and bottom drain. One question here: You say the pump must be after the mechanical and biological filtration, so does the skimmer bypass both filtrations and connect straight to the pump where the biological filter connects? i.e. 2 into 1.

Another question is where should the UV lie?

Here is a schematic of how I want to setup my system:

Newbie Questions 533-pond-design

Any input will be appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 12:30 pm

You have to connect the drain / skimmer to your settlement chamber to ‘catch’ all the big stuff you want to get rid off. If you bypass it everything will end up in the pump and the liquidized stuff will be returned to the pond.

You say that you will be using a gravity fed system; does this mean that your new wet / dry filter will be below water level as well? If that is the case, you can connect the pump on the output of your system. Just remember to fit motor above water level. If you mount it below the water surface you will flood it when you open the leaf basket for cleaning, or when you have a leaking pipe. If only your drain / skimmer is gravity fed and new filter above ground level you need to place the pump before the filter to be able to draw water from drain / skimmer.

I will fit the UV’s after the filter. Mine is fitted between pre-filter and filter chambers. This is still a concern to me since it might clog up in time. This also prevents the UV to operate at it's best since some water will be ‘hiding’ behind the solid pieces and light will be unable to reach all areas. Just remember not to exceed the Maximum flow rate of the UV. If you are going to use the swimming pool pump the flow rate will be huge, so you need to split the pipes that only a small portion of water flows via the UV.

What sort of matting are you going to use in filter?

You will need about 25L of Bio Balls. They specify it to be enough for a 12000L pond, but keep in mind that the maximum flow rate for bio balls (25L) will only be between 6000 and 7500L per hour.

A 750 Watt swimming pool motor will have a flow rate in the region of 15000 – 20000 L per hour. This means that your turn around time of water in the pond will be around 2 times an hour which does not sound bad, but the material you plan to use, including the UV won’t handle the fast flow.

It is fun to build your own filter system but you might consider ready made filters designed for your size pond. They come complete with UV, Filter media and the correct pump size.

Hopefully this info will be handy but remember that I am no expert. I had a few problems of my own and made many silly mistakes that cost me a lot of wasted hours when I built my pond.


Last edited by Marius Bezuidenhout on Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 12:57 pm

Thanks for the insight.

How can one decrease the flow rates through the filter systems and UV while using a swimming pool pump?

You just got me thinking now, wont the wet/dry filter flood if it is next to the settlement chamber if they both under the water line?

Maybe everything except the settlement chamber should be above the water level line so that they don't flood? But then I need to pump the water out of the settlement chamber somehow.

Now I am really puzzled.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 1:27 pm

Yes it can flood if filter clogs up, so it will be wise to have an overflow system back into your pond. Bear this in mind for each chamber. This will prevent you from draining the pond while you not at home. Also important is not to make the drain pipe in the chamber to short. Water in pond can not fall below the height of this pipe, so you can not drain pond by accident. The filter should not be below waterline, but rather at the same height. Your filter media must be places below waterline. Pack it tight to prevent channeling around it.

If you place the filter on the ground it will be easier to clean but then you need to fit the pump before the filter system. You can fit a low density filter matting in the drain / skimmer chamber to prevent big solid entering your pump. I see the recommended flow rate for the UV and Bio Balls are about the same. You can always fit a t-piece on the output of your pump (before going to filter) and redirect it via a pipe back into the pond. Fit a valve on the pipe going to the filter. This way you can control the water flow and you can close the valve whenever you clean the filter. All water will now be directed to the pond and you still have circulation while working
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 2:08 pm

Here is a revised version of the design.

This should eliminate the fast water flow issue and ensure all water going through the filters is clean of debris?

Newbie Questions 534-pond-design2

There should be enough pressure after the sand filter to flow back to the pond and through the filtration systems hey?
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 3:18 pm

CamO asked me to upload his new design and for people to comment

Newbie Questions PondDesign2
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 3:43 pm

Nice drawing. You must just keep in mind that the 50mm skimmer / drain pipes might clog up over time and that is the reason people use 110mm pipes for the drains.
You can also get away with one bigger settlement chamber instead of 2.

Question, how do you plan to clear the waste in the settlement chamber? Are you going to run a separate pipe to the pump and use the pump do drain and clean your chamber. Please remember to put pump to waste. You don’t want to feed the waste back to the sand filter.

I would use only one filter after the sand filter. Why do you want to create more work for yourself?

Question 2: Will your trickle filter contain different material now? You don’t need the mechanical section in trickle filter anymore.

Lastly, I would place my 2 return pipes in different positions to direct water towards the skimmer. Or you can place one at the top of the pond and the other lower to create movement deeper down


Last edited by Marius Bezuidenhout on Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:07 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 4:12 pm

Yeah i will most likely use 110mm piping from the drain.

How big do you think the settlement chamber for a 9000litre pond needs to be.

To clean the settlement chamber, I am going to connect a drain to it, but I will also have a vacuum available to suck out all the dirt/sludge as well. I am not going to connect a pump to suck out the sludge.

Does a trickle filter not have so many more benefits over say just a standard 25l ultrazap? Such as the oxygen absorbtion during the trickling? I figured the more filters the merrier.

I was going to buy some matala sheets for the trickle. But if I don't go the trickle root, i'm sure I can just put matala in the 25l ultrazap?

Ideally I will put the water from the sand filter through some kind of waterfall back into the pond and the other return through an underwater venturi. Maybe the other way around as the underwater return obviously needs more pressure.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 5:08 pm

Surely your settlement chamber must be at the same level as your pond and the pump above ground. You will be unable to suck water up via the pump if you build the settlement chamber higher than the pond because it will only draw air from the chamber and not water through it. The vacuum is a good idea to clean settlement chamber and water waist is little since you pump the waist into your garden. So don’t bother with drain in chamber.

Yes, the more filtration, the better but rather make your home made filter bigger instead of using 2 filters. I use all 4 density sheets of Matala in my system starting with the black sheets combined with green as mechanical filtration. Next chamber higher density. Since your water will be cleared of the big particles by the time it reaches the trickle filter I suggest you use only the grey. Very good surface area and you don’t need any other media after that. Fit them vertically in your up-down system. They come in sheets of 1.2m x 1m so you can cut them into smaller pieces that will fit your set-up. I was lucky because my chambers are 1.2m wide so I cut them in half ending up with sheets of 1.2m x .5m. Believe me; they work well if you use it in the proper way. Water crystal clear now and water properties very good. Many countries in the world use it as media for drinking water.

Make your settlement chamber a workable size. Mine is about 1 x 1 m. Are you going to fit sheets between the input and output of settlement chamber to keep big particles out, or how are you going to prevent big stuff entering the pump?
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 5:20 pm

If it was me, then i would put the UV after the Ultrazap filter and before the trickle filter.

Keep the bio balls in the ultrazap filter. Put oyster shells in the trickel filter and cyremic rings in the trickle tower. You can have the middle tray use metala but not the top. Plastic is not a very good medium for a trickle filter what happens if the power goes down?...the medium is dry in seconds and all the bacteria die. Cermaic rings is a much better option.

Tricle filters seem simple but to understand the science behind it...wow complex. check out the koi-bito forum if you want to learn more about it. They call it bakkie showers. They actually did tests, 2 ponds, same size, same amount and size fish, 1 tricle filter on the first with bio balls as media, 2nd pond ceramic rings as media...Bio balls tooks 3-4 months to mature while the ceramic rings was matured by week 3.

Questions :

1. How are you going to waste the two settlement chambers?
2. Why have 2 settlement chambers?
3, And how can you have ball valves on the incoming bottom drain and skimmer lines? The settlment chamber must the same hight as the pond....so in that case the ball valves will be under the ground.


Last edited by wayneb on Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:39 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 5:26 pm

Hi,

Your lot is making my head spin!

9000lt is a small pond, why going through all the trouble?
Keep it simple!
I will do the following;
Two bottom drains with 50mm pipe outlets
One weir/skimmer
Two Venturi’s (placed above water level)
One .75 kW Pump
Three bag sand filter
One 25-liter Ultra Zap Bio Filter with Bio Balls
One 8watt UV light
With the necessary ball valves to regulate, the bottom drains, weirs, waterfalls

I run this pond (10 000lt) with a similar system, only with a 1,1kW pump

Newbie Questions KP97-7
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 5:28 pm

Pieter does have a point....you can chuck the settlement chambers and suck directly from the bottom drain, push through sand filter and bio ball filter.

I would keep the trickle as it adds oxygen and enhances the water quality...just use the right medium...please.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 5:30 pm

oops, add this by mistake.
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 6:46 pm

Thanks for the good advice from the advanced Koi keepers. This is the way beginners like us learn.
We all have different opinions about the hobby and that is part of the fun. I have a few concerns about advice obtained so far:
I was advised by several people to keep my flow rates for both bio media and UV’s within specs.

The following info I obtained from the Ultra Zap website:
‘’ The actual time it takes for the water to pass through the chamber –‘the contact time’ – is a function of the recommended flow rate per tube. The overall volume of water in the livestock tank or system, and the frequency that the total volume comes into contact with the U.V. source, is also significant and must be taken into account for the correct operation of the filter on a given system. ‘
‘’Lamp life is 8000 hours but it is recommended to change the lamps every 4000 hours.’’

‘’8Watt UV for pond capacity up to 6000L and max flow rate of 2400L per hour’’

‘’The Ultra Zap U.V units are easily installed into your existing pipe work or into a new system. When using filters with gravity feed returns to the pond the U.V unit must be installed on the inlet to the filter as not to restrict the outlet flow, which can affect the efficiency of the filter. It is recommended to use a mechanical pre filter or strainer before the U.V. unit as to prevent the large dirt particles entering the U.V. unit, which will reduce the performance of the tube. When using a sand or disc filter, install U.V. unit after such units. Always install U.V units with the correct flow of water passing through the unit. Ball valves installed on the U.V. pipeline must be before the unit as to prevent pressure build up in the unit. Mount U.V units horizontally with the inlet and outlet facing upwards as this prevents air locks and the tube will always be totally surrounded by water, therefore the water will be exposed to the U.V rays for a longer period. Mounting horizontally also prevents faulty electrics. Install unit with unions on the inlet and outlet. Electric connections should be connected by a qualified electrician and must be wired through circuit breaker/earth leakage system. Protect the U.V unit from rain and irrigation systems in gardens’’

BIO BALLS:
‘’Bio Balls provide an excellent surface area for bacteria colonies
to grow on. Millions of naturally occurring bacteria, which live
on the surface break down the toxic waste, produced by the
fish and uneaten food. Bio Balls can be used in low pressure,
gravity feed and trickle filters, depending on the instillation
design. It is important to provide adequate mechanical filtration
before your biological filters and to clean the mechanical filter
regularly.’’
‘’There is an average of 13400 Bio balls per cubic meter. Surface area is approximately 340m² /m³. You will need approx 2 liters of Bio Balls per 1kg of fish. A 30 cm fish weighs ± 500 grams. Stock approx. four 30cm fish per 1000 liter. These are approximate figures and all other parameters should be taken into consideration.’’
‘’It is important to remember that biological filters can take up six to eight weeks to establish, they also need a continuous supply of oxygen rich water and so must operate 24 hours per day. It is important to monitor ammonia and nitrite levels at regular intervals to make sure the biological filters are adequate. ‘’
‘’25L of bio Balls will be adequate for a pond volume of 12 000L and a flow rate of 100 – 150L per minute’’
By the way, thanks to Wayne and Pieter and all the other regular people on the forum for very good advise so far
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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Wow guys, so many ideas flying around.

One thing though, would it not make more sense to put in a settlement chamber to prevent the sandfilter being blocked and the basket in the pump all the time?
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Location : Kraai Fontein, Cape Town Metropol

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PostSubject: Re: Newbie Questions   Newbie Questions EmptyWed Apr 01, 2009 11:05 pm

Hi, you can add a settlement chamber if you want, it will cut down on the maintenance of the sand filter but i would rather on that size pond purchase a multi-cyclone and install that infront of the sand filter to save on the maintenance of the sand filter.

Before i had a big pond i also had a 9000 liter koi pond. I use to suck directly from the bottom drain straight into the sand filter. It is not a problem for that size of koi pond but you cant do the same for bigger volumes.

So what pieter and myself are trying to say is that it would work and it won't be a problem for you to only have a sand filter. Pieter does not believe in settlement chambers at all his solution is more sand filters and more pumps - it works no doubt but its expensive to have many presure pumps and many sand filters.

Sand filters waste lots of water and pressure pumps consume lots of energy. On bigger volume ponds its better and cheaper to go the settlement chamber route. The settlement chamber idea will work with low wattage pumps - saving you electricity but adding to your building cost.

I have to say that the sand filter will keep your water cleaner than just having a settlement chamber but there is a point where you have to way up the physical cost $$$.

Settlement chamber require you to do alot of thinking and calculating. If you are sucking directly from the bottom drain you can purchase the biggest pump you want plug it in and it will work - walla!! not poblems. Very Happy but with a settlement chamber your pump low rate is restricted by the gravity flow of the water from the bottom drain throught the pipes into the settlement chamber. If your pump is to strong it will eventially suck the settlement chamber dry...in other words...the pumps is taking water out of the settlement chamber faster that what it can flow into the sellement chamber.

So for example on a 110ml pipe you can get a maximum of 15000 liter per hour via gravity through the pipe....each bend and meter of pipe reduces the amount..so if you have a 30 000 liter pond you will need atleast 2 bottom drains to be able to turn over the 30 000 l in one hour. You will also not be able to have a pump stronger than a 15 000l / hr on each line...and depending on the length of pipe from the drain and and the amount of bends even it might be to strong. In which case you will propably need a 3rd bottom drain....

You also need to take into considuration if you will ever extend your pond. If decided to suck directly from the bottom drain with 50ml pipe you will be stuck with that forever.

Sorry Marius, i read your post - im sure there is a question in there somewhere but i could not see it. Embarassed

Wayne
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