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wayneb

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PostSubject: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu May 29, 2008 6:45 pm

Het enige iemand hier ondervinding met Virkon S?

Ek weet mens kry Virkon S 200g (R 30.00) en Virkon S Aquatic (R 990.00). Virkon S Aquatic werk blykbaar beter in 'n koi dam maar ek nie suke geld om in die water tegooi nie Very Happy ...Ek het vandag die normale Virkon S gekoop. Ek weet mens kan dit in 'n koi dam gebruik en soek net asseblief die formule hoe om dit temeng en die beste maniere om dit tegebruik van week na week. Ek skat mens moet die UV soos gewoonlik afsit maar vir hoe lank?

Vir die wat nie weet wat Virkon S is nie.
Quote :
Virkon S is a broad spectrum disinfectant that is effective against viruses, bacteria and fungi.

Effective against Koi Herpes Virus and all major virus families affecting fish. Works at low temperatures with proven efficacy against key fish pathogens.

Ek wil dit gebruik net om my algehele toestand van my koi en koi dam te verbeter. Ek sal enige additionele informasie waardeer.

Wayne


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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu May 29, 2008 7:42 pm

Hi Wayne

As our farm was most probably the first in SA to be disinfected with Virkon S five years ago we should know the formula.

Pond Treatment 5g/1000L and repeat it after 5 days no need for water changes. Safe to use with salt at 0.3% or 3kg/1000l. No UV lights must be working.

For disinfecting ponds with out koi in it 25g/1000l once off run system for 24 hours with the Virkon S in the water. Empty the system and rinse with clean water. Full system with clean water and follow protocols of a new pond.
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu May 29, 2008 8:37 pm

So do i leave the UV off the whole time? Is the water not going to turn green? Do you have to do it every 5 days or can i add it say; only once a month?
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeSun Jun 01, 2008 3:48 pm

It is propably to late to ask seeing as i already added the Virkon S to the pond. Is this going to affect my Bio filter?
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeSun Jun 01, 2008 10:41 pm

Virkon S kan hier bestel word.

www.vetproductsonline.co.za ..............................R 395.98


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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeSun Jun 01, 2008 10:59 pm

Enige idee waar 'n mens Virkon S Aquatic in Suid Afrika kan kry teen 'n redelike prys?

Virkon S Aquatic kos maar $25 op die NET maar binnelands verkoop Cape Koi dit vir R 990.00, hulle voer dit in en ek weet van geen ander plek waar mens die Aquatic weergawe kan kry nie.
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeMon Jun 02, 2008 11:16 am

I do not have personal experience of Virkon. Being also a dealer, I believe that my Koi should not be raised in a setup that is too sterilized. If the fish are not exposed to various bacteria, the fish don't build up an immunity against various bacteria. So, if I sell fish, they should be able to handle the bacteria present in my client's pond.

I rather sell fish with an high immunity and believe that the constant or regular use of Ozone, Virkon and other products that make you pond more sterile, will lesson the immunity of the fish.

The principle is the same with frequent use of Potassium Permanganate which actually does more or less the same as Virkon S. (Virkon S is Potassium Peroxomonosulph.)

If you don't ever expose your children to bacteria by cleaning the house with anti-bacteria everyday, they get sick so much easier when exposed.

Based on hearsay, Virkom will affect your Bio filter only if you overdose, but because your filter don't have to work as hard as in systems without Virkon, it will obviously influence the effectiveness of the filter over time. The effectiveness of filters change in accordance with the need. That is why you should always add new fish gradually, to give the filter time to adapt to the new load of fish waste.

Should you stop the addition of Virkon, you might get spikes of Ammonia and Nitrites and possible bacterial infection.

If you start to use at on a regular basis, you should continue.

As an alternative to Potassium Permanganate in the event of a bacterial problems, I believe it is an option.

For initial sterilization in a new setup or after serious health problems or new begin, I heard that it is great.

Please share your experiences.

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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeMon Jun 02, 2008 12:57 pm

So far i don't have much experience with it, but i agree with you. It can't be a good thing to add it every week.

Something that i can mention is that once the virkon S was added, foam started to appear everywhere where the water got agitated. Yesterday the foam was 5cm thick and almost covered my whole pond...after 20 minutes all the foam disappeared...And i only added 3g /1000L yesterday - i added the rest of the 5g / 1000L today.

I have been having a few health issues with my koi in the last 4 weeks. In the last for weeks:

1. I lost of ogon that was bleeding from the gills.
2. A 30CM Doits showa developed sores, almost like small ulcers on the head - it recovered by itself.
3. A 56cm Kohaku developed sores on it head...after 3 injections of baytril it looks much better.
4. A 35cm Torazo Kohaku (Stunning fish) seems like it is developing Popeye...It has not turned into dropsy yet.

As you can see i have a few health issues going on at the momment, no new fish was added since Nov 2007, and i am not sure where the problem is coming from. The water parameters are all perfect.

I have already decreased the koi stocking densities to 1 koi / 2133L and my pond does automatic water changes of 400L a day. So now i have resorted to Virkon S. I plan to do a series of weekly treatments on my pond for the next 4 weeks.

The only bad thing that happened to my pond before all these issues is that some cement fell into the water when the cladding was put on my pond.

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeMon Jun 02, 2008 1:47 pm

It doesn't sound very good and you have my sympathy.

Before I read your last sentence, I thought of asking you about the cement, because I saw how cloudy your pond was when you posted the photo of your pond a while back. (Other possible poisonous substances in the grouting?)

Your koi was clearly exposed to quite a lot of stress lately due to the fairly new environment(new bigger pond), all the noise while building, and surely you moved the koi to a temporary pond at one stage.

I have seen major problems with Koi ponds after cement fell in the water. Apart from the fact that wet Cement is poisonous, it also tend to create PH crashes due to the alkaline content.

Although you have a very good top of the range filtration system, your pond is not mature yet, which also must have contributed to unnecessary stress.

You also have a leak. If water levels dip frequently, I found that the fish gets stressed out. They probably think, "O boy, we are going to run out of water." :-)

As you probably know, stress is one of the major contributing factors of a bacterial infection. It breaks down the immune system of the fish, and the Aeromonas takes over. (Pop eye often indicates that Aeromonas is present, esecially if all the fish has the same symptoms)

The problem with Aeromonas, if it already infected internally, Virkon might not do the trick, as it is only effective against external bacterial problems. However, it will bring down your bacterial count and prevent further internal infection (if any)

You said that the Baytril worked for the Kohaku. That means that Baytril is effective against this particular culprit in your pond. I would consider Baytril injections on all the sick looking fish if they deteriorate further.

If you see an improvement, stop treating and don't go the Baytril route and maintain very high salt levels and very frequent water changes.

(Instead of Virkon, I personally would rather use Acraflavine, Potassium Permanganate, or even Chloramine T to get the bacterial count down. I see Virkon rather as a preventative treatment)

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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeMon Jun 02, 2008 2:27 pm

Quote :
Other possible poisonous substances in the grouting?
I used plain cement and sand.

Quote :
Your koi was clearly exposed to quite a lot of stress lately
Very true, moved from the big pond to a small pond 2500L with 17 fish in it!! Then moved back to the main pond. The cement fell into the water - it took a week to clear up. Then i had to net a the big kohaku to treat it with baytril.

Quote :
Although you have a very good top of the range filtration system, your pond is not mature yet.

This is true and not true...My main bio filtration (400L Kaldness) is now 1 year old already..i fed the filters twice a day with ammonia to keep it alive while i worked on the pond...ofcourse all the other equipment is new and the pond itself can be classified as new.

Quote :
I would consider Baytril injections on all the sick looking fish if they deteriorate further.
Thanks for the advice, i think i will do this.

At the momment my pond water is crystal clear and all the water parameters are where they are ment to be.

As i said before, i get lots of foam when doing the Virkon S treatment which is strange...i have asked around and it is not suppose to do that. So i wonder if it is reacting to something in my water!? Remember i had a simular problem with foam after a patasium treatment about a month or two ago.

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeMon Jun 02, 2008 3:31 pm

Wayne,
Foaming after Virkon S is normal.
It looks and smells like soap.
I only treat at 2g / ton of water.
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeWed Jun 04, 2008 2:18 pm

Hi Wayne

Sorry I was away for a week.

Virkon S is Potassium Peroxomonosulph so it will foam up but the foam will go away after a period.

Yes, keep the UV off for the 10 days. After 10 days the UV's will clear the water fast.

Only do 2 treatments if you need to use Virkon S.

You could treat with Virkon S every 3 - 6 months or after Shows or during QT or after adding new koi to your pond.

You could bay it from Du Pond Labís they are the manufacturers of it.
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeWed Jun 04, 2008 2:59 pm

Thanks Colin, I discovered the local depont branch about three days ago.

They told me that they are waiting for Virkon S Aquatics to be registered...so that they can sell it locally. Apparently they have been waiting for 1 year already but there is a lot of red tape and they expect to wait another year.

Differences between Virkon S and Virkons S Aquatics according to Jolanda from Dupont.

Virkon S..................Virkon S Aquatics
Powder........................Tablets
Contains colourant.......Contains no colourants
Contains fragrance.......Contrains no fragrances
..................................Contains anti-foaming agent.

A guy called Wouter from dupont gave me some inside info...Click on the spoiler below to see.

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeWed Jun 18, 2008 8:48 pm

Paul, i see that you recommend PP for treating Aeromonas bacteria but dont you think Virkon S is a better or an easier solution for the job?

Its anti-viral, anti-bacterial and ant-fungal plus you don't have to keep an eye on the pond for 6-8 hours during treatment, plus the treatment lasts 10 days....just makes life a bit easier.

See this URL for all the things that it can treat. http://www2.dupont.com/DAHS_EMEA/en_GB/ahb/fish/efficacy_data.html
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu Jun 19, 2008 6:43 am

Hi Wayne,

The substances mentioned in this thread are poisons. The words disinfectants are banished around - disinfectants kill everything.

Potassium Permanganate is a very powerful oxidizer - in my humble opinion anyone who uses this in a koi pond is ...... crazy ...... no bonkers.

If there is a major infection problem and you want to sterilise a pond you use these poisons after the koi have been removed. You then nuke the pond to sterilize the complete environment.

The administrator of this forum had some very good advice especially in relation to the immune system. But I would like to add a few ideas and some experience.

1) If there is a koi with a problem then remove that fish and treat it but only once the cause of the problem has been identified.

2) Treating the whole pond because of a few problems is not the way to go. After all, if a member of your family has flu you treat the individual you do not close up all windows and doors and gas the whole family.

Because these substances are poisons you are wrecking havoc with the healthy koi and possibly creating a situation (through stress and physical damage) where new problems occur.

3) The gills of a koi are one cell thick. Many of these substances that oxidise living things will have an adverse affect on the gills. The first reaction to counter a toxic environment is the body will build up layers of cells on the gills. The immediate effect is that less oxygen can diffuse across the gills (because they are thicker). Less oxygen to the body places the fish under immediate stress and slows or even prevents the healing process because the metabolism needs oxygen - and needs even more oxygen when sick or stressed.

By adding these substances you create far more long term problems than curing short term infections.

4) Koi with sores or infections take longer to heal than we realise. Their bodiesí immune systems are working away and if conditions are right the body will heal its self. However, if the koi does not heal immediately then adding other or more "medications" (read - poisons in limited doses) will aggravate the situation for the sick koi AND the healthy ones in the collection.

5) The workings of the immune system and metabolism are temperature dependant. This time of the year is not a good time to get infections or to try to clear it up. The colder the water the longer infections take to clear up. Give the koi time to heal itself.

I notice you added ammonia to the water - why? If the system cannot cope with the ammonia from the fish it will certainly not cope with the extra ammonia.

Any substance that eliminates bacteria and viruses will damage the bioconverter. If it is killing the free floating bacteria and the bacteria on the koi it is killing the bacteria in the filters.

Perhaps you should draw up a time line. In table form write down the date, what was observed on the fish, the diagnosis and what was added to the pond? Also keep a record of the water temperature. It may become apparent that although the water is clear the continual addition of some very poisonous substances has had a negative impact and you are starting to see it on the healthy fish.

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu Jun 19, 2008 9:43 am

Hi Chris, thanks for the advise as always, just a few comments.

Chris Neaves wrote:
The substances mentioned in this thread are poisons.
All "medications" used on humans and animals are poisons, our medical advances are based on them. When used in small quantities and on the correct situations these poisons do the job...

Quote :
The administrator of this forum had some very good advice especially in relation to the immune system.
Yes i agree, if the treatment is used continuesly and without cause it will have a negative affect on the immune system but that is not what i am suggesting. I was suggesting a once of treatment to sort out the Aeromonas bacteria where ever they might be, especially after reading this thread - http://koionline.forumotion.com/general-diseases-f13/ulcer-at-koi-s-mouth-t367.htm

Quote :
I notice you added ammonia to the water - why? If the system cannot cope with the ammonia from the fish it will certainly not cope with the extra ammonia.
You are misunderstanding, this must be from another thread...the ammonia was added to my bio-converters in small doses every day while my pond was empty and without fish for a couple of weeks, i used this method to keep my filters alive while doing construction on my pond. In the end it worked and i did not loose my bacteria in my bio-converters.

Quote :
Any substance that eliminates bacteria and viruses will damage the bioconverter. If it is killing the free floating bacteria and the bacteria on the koi it is killing the bacteria in the filters.
This is exactly what i thought.

So what do you use for treating parasites and diseases if you dont use any of these "poisons"
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu Jun 19, 2008 10:18 am

wayneb wrote:
Paul, i see that you recommend PP for treating Aeromonas bacteria but dont you think Virkon S is a better or an easier solution for the job?

Hi Wayne. Until now I have only used Virkon S to sterilize nets and ponds. For this purpose it is ideal as it also kills viruses. Potassium Permanganate(PP) does the same job but does not kill viruses as effectively. On the other hand it is cheaper than Virkon.

I believe that not enough studies has been conducted on the effect of Virkon on the fish. However, various studies show that Potassium Permanganate is very effective to bring the aeromonas count down without adverse effect on the koi.

Yes, there are a lot of negative sides to PP because it is an oxidiser as Chris indicated, but I believe that it does serve a useful purpose. "Die doel heilig soms die middel"

I believe that the most knowledgeable person when it comes to koi health is the world renowned Dr Erik Johnson. He recommends PP and has conducted various studies on PP as a treatment for koi with positive results.

I have been using PP for many years wilth excellent results. I believe that you should just use it very responsible and you HAVE TO abide strictly by the rules, as any overdose will kill your fish.

Herewith one of Dr Johnson's numerous articles on Potassium Permangante:

"Potassium permanganate can be extremely effective against Flukes, Trichodina,
Bacterial Ulceration and Fungal infections. Since this spectrum fills in the gaps where Salt seems to falter, it should be considered highly as an excellent compound to balance with Salt in any well-prepared drug cabinet.
Caution must be used; however, because the toxic level of this compound is only slightly higher than the therapeutic level. Dosing must be exact, and so should the volume estimate of the system.
For years, now, I have been a strong supporter of the use of Salt as a mainstay in the treatment of fish parasites. It's safe and effective, and it does not harm the filter bacteria. Looking at it closely, it has a lot to recommend it. But... Salt falls down when we confront Flukes, and sometimes when we face Asian Trichodina. Salt fails to clear more than 60% of Fluke infestations, (although it has cleared 30-40% of cases simply by inhibiting the reproduction of some species of flukes over the three-week treatment period).
With Trichodina, since there are so many strains, we see some types coming into the country on imported fish that resist our standard 0.3% salt solution. They clear readily at 0.6% salt, but some folks get just plain nervous dosing salt that high.
Finally, salt does not address significant bacterial or fungal invaders, in spite of its benefits as a tonic or osmotic bandage during bacterial and fungal crises. Because of these short-comings in salt's performance, it was with great interest that I began to do some experiments with, and research on: Potassium permanganate (PP).
Potassium permanganate (chemical formula: KMnO4) is a caustic alkali that dissociates in water to form the permanganate ion (MnO4-) and also into Manganese dioxide (MnO2) along with the liberation of nascent (elemental) Oxygen molecules. It's primary effect then, is powerfully oxidative. As a powerful waterborne treatment with nominal residual hazard, Potassium permanganate was exempted from registration with or by the EPA and has been placed on Deferred Regulatory Status for the time being by the FDA. It is thus legal for use in food fish and fisheries. There may be other compounds with similar spectrum against bacterial pathogens, but they have not "gotten the nod" from FDA and EPA (examples Hyamine, Chloramine-T and Roccal).
It is reported that the permanganate ion is the toxic "active-agent" that kills parasites by destroying the cell wall via oxidation. Other literature shows how the Manganese dioxide molecule forms protein complexes on the surface epithelium, conferring the characteristic brown color we see on fish and fins, but also these protein complexes form on the respiratory structures of the fish parasites, resulting in their death.
No matter how you slice it, a review of the literature shows an impressive confirmed kill list. Saprolegnia, Costia, Chilodinella, Ich, Trichodina, both Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus, Argulus, Piscicola, Lernea, Columnaris and other bacteria including Edwardsiella, Aeromonas, Pseudomonas, plus Algae and Ambiphrya.
Unfortunately, it is not so exciting as it might at first appear. Argulus, Lernea and Piscicola reportedly respond only when Potassium permanganate is used as a dip, (most often: 10-25 ppm for 90 minutes). Other reports show that Costia and Chilodinella also resist Potassium permanganate unless used as a dip. More work should be done on this.
Potassium permanganate as a dip is highly caustic, and in my experience results in fish with coagulative necrosis (white margins of dead-tissue) on the fin tips. Severe gill damage can result, causing death as many as several weeks later in dipped fish, to the dismay of the collector or retailer. To further discourage the use of Potassium permanganate as a dip, it has been shown that Goldfish are more sensitive to dipping than some other species. For these reasons and more, I recommend that we discard Potassium permanganate as a dip. Too many losses have occurred as a result of Potassium permanganate being used as a dip, and the therapeutic effect is not that much better than the much safer 2-4 ppm continuous treatment.
I should like to take this opportunity to describe Potassium permanganate's strongest suits:
Potassium permanganate is very effective at the annihilation of Flukes. Both Gyrodactylus and Dactylogyrus were cleared within 8 hours at 3 ppm in closed holding systems. Re-infection can occur, and so it is recommended that a second treatment be done to these fish 2-3 days later at 2 ppm. In any event, care must be taken that a full concentration be maintained for 10-12 hours.
See information on dosing, later. Potassium permanganate is extremely effective in the reduction of Columnaris, Aeromonas, Edwardsiella bacterial, and also in true Fungal infections. It is with excitement that I write to you about my trials with Potassium permanganate in holding systems containing fish with bacterial Ulcers that were opened and then inoculated by Flukes. Very often, these systems are crowded, and there is a high accumulation of nitrogenous waste (organic matter) on the vat floor. Flukes have had ample opportunity to cross infect all specimens, and bacterial Ulcers could merit or demand injection. Application of Potassium permanganate in these systems simultaneously achieves the following things:
1. Annihilation of the flukes
2. Disinfection of the wounds.
3. Reduction (by 99% in some cases) of all Aeromonad and other gram negative bacteria in the environment.
4. Destruction of Saprolegnia which is a common secondary invader of Ulcers
5. Massive oxidation of organic material which then can be removed with prudent water changes and filtration.
After two treatments three days apart, we see fish with healing Ulcers that are effectively parasite free, in water with considerably less organic material. Finally, a strong suit of Potassium permanganate is in the treatment of "Winter Fungus" which, depending upon the actual cause, may be either Columnaris bacteria (such as Cytophaga psychrophilia) or in other cases may be true fungus like Saprolegnia. Regardless of the true cause, non diagnosed but clinically affected specimens can be cleared of "cotton-wool" lesions of mouth, body and fin with these two applications of Potassium permanganate.
Potassium permanganate's effect on ciliated protozoans is the subject of a lot of writing and research. It is generally agreed that Potassium permanganate's strongest suit in the protozoan classes is the clearance of Trichodina. This is a good thing, too, because Trichodina is one of very few ciliated protozoan for which salt has been incompletely and universally effective.
The significance of what you have just read is as simple as this: Potassium permanganate picks up where salt leaves off, taking out Trichodina and Flukes which salt might have missed, and extending the kill into Fungus and also the disinfection and resolution of superficial bacterial Ulcerations.
There are several other applications where Potassium permanganate might be of some utility for the aquaculturist or hobbyist. In shipping situations, a concentration of no more than 2 ppm has been found to effectively reduce Columnaris and other bacterial infection, as well as limiting and stopping parasitisms that so often gain the "upper-hand" in transported fish. Safe with all but the smallest fry, even fingerlings can be transported at 2ppm Potassium permanganate. It is advised; however, that ponds containing fry not be treated with Potassium permanganate. The reason is not so much a concern for toxicity, but that waters devoid of phytoplankton or macrophytes may result in the starvation of fry.
Catfish should be spared Potassium permanganate levels above 2 ppm in any application.
Another function of Potassium permanganate in aquacultural systems has been the detoxification of applied toxins. Rotenone and Antimycin are piscicides used for clearing out unwanted fish from waters intended for aquaculture, and rather than wait out the effective period of these two compounds, it is advantageous to use Potassium permanganate to break down these chemicals.
Recommendations for the dosage in this situation show that the basic Potassium permanganate demand of the system, determined by the "Jar technique" presented later, are enough to detoxify Rotenone and Antimycin. Another way to do this is to simply apply 2-3 ppm for the full 10-12 hours. Research has shown that this is sufficient to neutralize the therapeutic concentrations of Rotenone or Antimycin. Finally, another author suggests the use of Potassium permanganate at the same dose as the applied piscicide. For example, if Rotenone were used at 2 ppm then you would use 2 ppm Potassium permanganate as well. It would be my advice to treat using the jar technique to determine the Potassium permanganate demand as described in the dosing section, and then to exceed that amount by a full 2 ppm. Especially where fish to be stocked are quite valuable, e.g. Koi.
"

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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu Jun 19, 2008 11:03 am

Shocked
Quote :
Potassium Permanganate is a very powerful oxidizer - in my humble opinion anyone who uses this in a koi pond is ...... crazy ...... no bonkers.
Well, I am crazy ! geek

Quote :
So what do you use for treating parasites and diseases if you dont use any of these "poisons"
Prevention - GARLIC!
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PostSubject: Re: Virkon S   Virkon S Icon_minitimeThu Jun 19, 2008 12:07 pm

I think differing opinions are good as it challenges our thought processes combined with our own experiences.

In this hobby you will find many roads will get you to Rome. No one shares their experiences deliberately trying to confuse or give erroneous information. I think the value in a forum like this is you get the info you need to help you arrive at where you want to go with what makes sense to you.

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