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 Salt or no salt...that's the question.

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Pinep

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PostSubject: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeSun Sep 30, 2012 6:32 pm

I would like to see what people say about this question because there are a lot being said about salt - as well as the absence of salt - in koi ponds. What is the right thing to do? If salt is the answer, how much of it and why? If no salt is right, why? Please help by posting your views so that one can hopefully make up one's mind on this salty issue.
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Colin Hunt

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeSun Sep 30, 2012 10:04 pm

Pine, I am no expert and don't profess to be. This question is a good one and has come up often in the past and has been answered by many koi keepers, some are for using salt at 0.03% and some at 0.05%, some don't agree with the use of salt and others do, who knows?

I like to believe that koi are fresh water fish and therefore would feel uncomfortable in a salt solution, however I have experienced great results using salt should it be necessary. If you have a problem of some sort with your koi, do the necessary tests to establish what the problem is and treat accordingly. Should this treatment recommend a salt solution them use it as prescribed and I am sure you will have good results, should your fish not have a problem, leave the salt for the braai. Laughing
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costa j

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeSun Sep 30, 2012 11:04 pm

Hi Pine,

I think this is going to be a very very interesting topic, Thanks for posting.

Colin, What I think Pine is also trying to find out is --- can you run your pond on 2 to 3 kg / 1000 litre salt all the time, [ permanent ] .

What I do , is only use salt when I have a problem, as I also believe they are fresh water fish.

Please guys let us have your views on this. scratch scratch scratch

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PIET UNGERER



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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeMon Oct 01, 2012 8:52 am


Hi Sir Costa and Pine and koi friends

This is going to be a very nice post to see indeed

Piet
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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeMon Oct 01, 2012 9:40 am

I agree that ponds should not have salt. Some of my views:

1 It is an unnecessary expense;
2 It is difficult to maintain the same solution at all times due to backwashes and causes fluctuations of water parameters which add to stress;
3 Protozoa parasites like Costia builds up an immunity against salt and when you get a parasite outbreak like Costia, Salt treatments will not kill them. However, if you never use salt, it is a great way to get rid of Costia or other parasites;
4 Even if you have a bacterial outbreak, salt works well to develop a mucus coat around the fish, almost creating a protective shield and is a great antiseptic. You won't have the same effect if you had salt in the pond all the time.
5 You can't have a separate veggie filter if the concentration is high as plants don't like salt;
6 You can't use your backwash water on your garden.

However, because most problems occur during September or with a new pond (new pond syndrome and Nitrite spikes) or after a major cleanup of filters, I always add salt during this time as a preventative measure.

If for some reason, you have Nitrite spikes, salt combats the toxic results and inability of the fish to subtract oxygen from the water.

Koi are not salt water fish as said, that is why they develop a mucus coat caused by the irritation of the salt.

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Pinep

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PostSubject: The opinion of Dr Chris Fouche   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeMon Oct 01, 2012 9:47 pm

I contacted Dr Chris Fouche to get his opinion on the subject, and the following was his reply:

Wat my opinie oor sout aanbetref die volgende sommer in engels:

Koi and other freshwater fish use osmotic energy to retain their body salts against the release thereof to the water environment they are living in. This osmotic energy must be available in a sustainable way - and is apart from the other energy requiring activities such as swimming, digestion, metabolism, gonad development and reproduction.

If the fish are stressed by malnutrition (old or poor quality food), disease invasion, density (social stress), poor water quality etc, then the energy budget of the fish is under pressure. If salt is added to the water, then the osmotic energy for retaining of body salts will be less - so the fish can use their energy to combat disease or any other stressor.

On my own experience: I had a client who removed his koi harshly from his pond by letting them sprawling on the grass before moving them to a temporary holding unit. The grass abraded the fish so much that they did not have any significant slime coating on their bodies. Without slime koi are doomed to die because fungal and microbial diseases will attack unprotected skin. The client phoned me and asked for help after 40% of his fish died due to fungus and bacterial infections. I added salt to the quarantine pond at the same concentration as in the blood of the fish - that is 9 parts per thousand or 9 grams per liter of water (isosmotic solution). I also put antibiotic in the water. I was able to save 40% of the fish since another 20% died during treatment (point of no return).

The above experience showed that salt is a very important chemotherapeutic tool when it comes to koi. These fish thrive well at 3ppt salt which can be maintained at any time during koi keeping. However, my experience also showed that should one increase the salt concentration to over 4ppt - then the appetite (therefore growth) of the fish is negatively influenced. The conclusion is that salt should be used at a concentration level that will best suit the scenario in which the fish must be treated should it be required - and that 3ppt can be used indefinitely to save the fish on osmotic energy,the latter of which can rather be used for growth or other activities.

Pine - dit in n neute dop.
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PIET UNGERER



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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeMon Oct 01, 2012 10:25 pm

Hi Pine

Dankie vir baie goeie antw van jouself en Chris Fouche hy weet waarvan hy praat

Piet
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Neli

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeTue Oct 02, 2012 2:55 pm

Thanks!
Very interesting observations!
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HANNES VRYBURG



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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Oct 04, 2012 12:48 am

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Laughing Laughing Laughing
Costa eventually I have figured it out.Salt is the answer if you see you are developing sicknesses or cleaning and changing ponds .Saw the Japanese using it big time in all their indoor ponds.

HANNES
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costa j

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeSat Oct 06, 2012 10:50 am

Hi Hannes,

Yes this is a very interesting topic, will like to hear a lot more people comment on what they think and do with salt. [ Come guys , where are all those Boffins.]

Hannes if you want to to keep salt in your pond for a year plus, I would not go more than 1.5 to 2kgs per ton. JMO.

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Miya Oki Koi

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 10:28 am

I only use salt when there is problems or when its needed like example, with quarantine. I think the baddies get use to the salt if you use it all the time, and then when you need it, it have no or little effect. Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 11:09 am

I add a little salt everytime i do a water change.

Which is once a week.

But i only add about 0.5kg per ton.

Nardus

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Miya Oki Koi

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 11:24 am

Nardus I think thats a little to much to run your pond on all the time- remember that salt stay in the water and does not evaporate. This meaning you run your pond on a 0.5 % if not more all the time. Do you test the salt density from time to time?

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 12:08 pm

Hi Tommy, Nardus is using 0.05% and not 0.5% ,which is not very high.

0.5% = 5kg/1000 liters
0.05% = 500g/1000 liters

In severe cases, I would go up to 0.05 % max meaning 5kg/1000 l

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nardus



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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 12:55 pm

Yes i run 0.05% not 0.5%.

I have had some of muy fish die earlier this year of the water after a water change.

Since then i always add the salt and havent lost another one because of the water.

nardus
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Miya Oki Koi

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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeWed Oct 17, 2012 10:33 pm

Oh ja, I see now, misread the kg for %. Sorry. Embarassed o.o5% is very low but I still think it will weaken the effect of salt when really needed. Don't think it will make the parasites immune to salt like with higher densities but will make there resistance a bit stronger. What do you think? Shocked

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PostSubject: Salt   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 2:07 pm

I have read a lot about this salt adding, I believe in salts power to kill parasite etc., although there is enough evidence that parasites and other killers has over the years become stronger and even immune against salt. What I cannot find an answer to is, does salt break down in the pond and eventually disappear. As mentioned it is hard to control the level due to water change etc. What happens to it, if I just keep on adding and adding will I not create an salt pan. Question
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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 3:52 pm

nee man jy moet mos meet met `n meter en as jy nie een het nie vra `n tjommie met ene hoe is jou hart dan nou
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Ewald



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PostSubject: salt   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 6:22 pm

Nee man jy verstaan nie, ek wil weet of sout natuurlik uit water verdwyn.
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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 6:41 pm

Ewald wrote:
Nee man jy verstaan nie, ek wil weet of sout natuurlik uit water verdwyn.

Nee, dit bly in die water - net water changes gaan die sout verdun.
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PostSubject: Re: Salt or no salt...that's the question.   Salt or no salt...that's the question. Icon_minitimeThu Nov 01, 2012 7:23 pm

Hi -

Salt does not break down in the water. The only way to lower or get rid of the salt is with fresh water changes. You can see the effect of salt in salt pans where rivers run into an area but not out of it. The salt level gets higher and higher and kills everything.

If you use salt at a certain level you have to be careful when topping up. You cannot add the same amount of salt when you do a 10 or a 20% water change.

We have come across a number of cases where owners do a water change then add the same amount of salt as they originally did. The salt levels just build up and the koi suffer and become lethargic.

Koi are fresh water fish.

Use salt when necessary. i.e. if koi are sick or recovering from an illness.

A lot of salt dehydrates koi in water and it is an irritant to the skin. Yes, they can get used to it up to a point but why? They are fresh water fish. Bringing the salt level to a high level is very stressful. Leave them to live in the natural water you have in your pond. (tap water or borehole water).

Salt can kill parasites but it takes a lot of salt - not what you would normally use in a pond. So you have to give them a salt dip for a short time. The salt dehydrates the parasites and they die. But the salt also dehydrates the koi. Leave a koi in a salt bath for a few seconds too long and you will see the effects - it will turn on its side as it begins to die.

Chris

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