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 My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa

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sas



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PostSubject: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:04 pm

My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa

Received my new Sakai (Isawa) male showa from James of Pongoi Koi today, this showa is about 42cm now.

He is in my indoor quarantine facility at the moment.

The fish tank is about 600L and the temperature is at about 16C.

I will increase the temperature slowly to about 22 - 23C.









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PostSubject: RE:   Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:07 pm

A better picture of him:

Click Here for the Picture

Please note, this picture is from the James' website.

Thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:57 am

Very nice Tony. I like the dark red and a nice contrast between the three colours. Would be stunning if there were a bit more white on the head. The white is superb.

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:40 am

Admin wrote:
Very nice Tony. I like the dark red and a nice contrast between the three colours. Would be stunning if there were a bit more white on the head. The white is superb.

Hi Admin,

Thanks for your comment.

I didn't pay any attention to the pattern, when i select this showa.

But i agree with you, this showa will look better with some more white on the head.

Thanks.

Regards,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:44 am

Hi Guys, Wink

My opinion

As the Koi grows and fatten outs its white cheeks will become more noticeable also the white on the body will rise up and if the sumi develops on the head balancing the sumi on the back, which looks as though it will develop an X pattern it will be transformed, if sume comes up on the tail sectionit will have the potential to look stunning, certainly a Koi with lot of potential. .

lol! I like it more than the one I am keping?

Regards

James
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PostSubject: RE:   Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:40 pm

Just want to share some information about Matsunosuke (Sakai in Isawa).

The kohaku in "pic. 7" is a 1m long male kohaku, which was his oyagoi.

Very impressive!!!

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:43 pm

Pongoi Koi wrote:
Hi Guys, Wink

My opinion

As the Koi grows and fatten outs its white cheeks will become more noticeable also the white on the body will rise up and if the sumi develops on the head balancing the sumi on the back, which looks as though it will develop an X pattern it will be transformed, if sume comes up on the tail sectionit will have the potential to look stunning, certainly a Koi with lot of potential. .

lol! I like it more than the one I am keping?

Regards

James

Hi James,

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe next time you shouldn't allow me to choose first.... Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:36 pm

This is and will be a stunning showa!
Even though male, is from an excellent blood line, with lots of potential and will bring U lots of show awards if U allow it to develop a bit longer!
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:54 am

i like both of them.

Love the body shape.

Nardus
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:50 am

Hi Sas.
I like this male and think this will make a excellent male for breeding, think this is a good body for tosai male and the skin looks very good to. I want to get a Isa male together with a Kurihara male this time when Costa go to Japan. Shocked

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:56 am

Neli wrote:
This is and will be a stunning showa!
Even though male, is from an excellent blood line, with lots of potential and will bring U lots of show awards if U allow it to develop a bit longer!

Hi Neli,

Thanks for your comment.

Showing koi in a koi show is too much troubles.....@@"......

But I will post photos of this Showa from time to time.

Thanks.

Regards,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:56 am

nardus wrote:
i like both of them.

Love the body shape.

Nardus


Hi nardus,

Thanks for your comment.

Regards,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:57 am

Miya Oki Koi wrote:
Hi Sas.
I like this male and think this will make a excellent male for breeding, think this is a good body for tosai male and the skin looks very good to. I want to get a Isa male together with a Kurihara male this time when Costa go to Japan. Shocked

Hi Miya Oki Koi,

Thanks for your comment.

Sometime a koi that has good body shape and good skin quality, only past their good quality to a small percentage of offspring.
(Which make them not ideal for breeding....etc)

At the moment, i have no plan to use him for breeding.

The reason i buy this Showa, is beacuse i am interested in Sakai's Magoi x Showa bloodline. I just want to experience it, and comapre it's skin quality with the orginal Matsunosuke bloodline when fully grow.
(The original Matsunosuke bloodline has very good skin quality, but after adding Magoi blood there will be some bad side affects. The skin quality normally will not be as good as the orginal Matsunosuke, and lots of sumi will comes up as the koi grow....etc...)

Regards,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:33 pm

sas wrote:
Miya Oki Koi wrote:
Hi Sas.
I like this male and think this will make a excellent male for breeding, think this is a good body for tosai male and the skin looks very good to. I want to get a Isa male together with a Kurihara male this time when Costa go to Japan. Shocked

Hi Miya Oki Koi,

Thanks for your comment.

Sometime a koi that has good body shape and good skin quality, only past their good quality to a small percentage of offspring.
(Which make them not ideal for breeding....etc)

At the moment, i have no plan to use him for breeding.

The reason i buy this Showa, is beacuse i am interested in Sakai's Magoi x Showa bloodline. I just want to experience it, and comapre it's skin quality with the orginal Matsunosuke bloodline when fully grow.
(The original Matsunosuke bloodline has very good skin quality, but after adding Magoi blood there will be some bad side affects. The skin quality normally will not be as good as the orginal Matsunosuke, and lots of sumi will comes up as the koi grow....etc...)

Regards,
Tony
Hi SAS,
U are right about the magoi blood. It was added to increase the size of the Koi...but that was so many years ago, that now the new matsunosuke line is so well established through selective breeding, that the things U mention are no longer there...they end up just perfect showas...I have 10 of them...and I love their skin quality...
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:05 pm

sas wrote:
Pongoi Koi wrote:
Hi Guys, Wink

My opinion

As the Koi grows and fatten outs its white cheeks will become more noticeable also the white on the body will rise up and if the sumi develops on the head balancing the sumi on the back, which looks as though it will develop an X pattern it will be transformed, if sume comes up on the tail sectionit will have the potential to look stunning, certainly a Koi with lot of potential. .

lol! I like it more than the one I am keping?

Regards

James

Hi James,

Thanks for your reply.

Maybe next time you shouldn't allow me to choose first.... Very Happy



Hi, Sas

Mad Yes I certainly need to remember that with you next time? Normally when everyone come and selected, I feel I am left with the best!!! but not this time lol!

But Koi are meant to make Us happy! Every one should select what makes him/her happy. That is the important thing!

Enjoy and look after him.

Regards

James


Last edited by Pongoi Koi on Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:17 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:15 pm

Miya Oki Koi wrote:
Hi Sas.
I like this male and think this will make a excellent male for breeding, think this is a good body for tosai male and the skin looks very good to. I want to get a Isa male together with a Kurihara male this time when Costa go to Japan. Shocked


Hi, Smile

If youíre looking for Breeding stock for this spring give me a visit, Pongoi has a wide range of parent stock males and females, one of them being Isa bloodline.

Unfortunately Kurihara blood line I donít know?

Regards

James Wink
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:48 pm

Hi Neli,

Thanks for your reply.

If my memory is correct, a Dutch Magazine did an interview with Toshio Sakai in around 2010.

At that time, Toshio Sakai said he got the Showa x Magoi parent stock ready, and they are in 3rd generation. And he said in 2 to 3 years' time, he will be able to supply them in a commercial basis.

So, i guess the Showa i bought today is more or least the 4th or 5th generation.(Basically, is the first few year that he offer those Magoi Showa in the market, that he refered to in that interview....i guess...???... So, it should have a higher percentage of Magoi blood in it comapre to the later generations.)

I know Sakai (Isawa) got two blooline of Gosanke, one with Magoi blood and another without Magoi blood (Original Matsunosuke). But they are both marketed as Matsunosuke Gosanke.

To a normal person's eye, it is very difficult to tell which one got Magoi blood and which one don't or have very weak Magoi blood.But if I put one "Magoi x Matsunosuke" tosai and one "Original Matsunosuke" tosai in the same bowl. I can show you the difference.

So, i guess the bulk body and very nice skin quality Matsunosuke tosai that you are refering to. I think it is either a Gosanke comes from the "Original Matsunosuke" bloodline, or it comes from a "Magoi x Matsunosuke bloodline" but after so many generations that the Magoi blood is alredy very weak.

Thanks.

Regards,
Tony

Neli wrote:
sas wrote:
Miya Oki Koi wrote:
Hi Sas.
I like this male and think this will make a excellent male for breeding, think this is a good body for tosai male and the skin looks very good to. I want to get a Isa male together with a Kurihara male this time when Costa go to Japan. Shocked

Hi Miya Oki Koi,

Thanks for your comment.

Sometime a koi that has good body shape and good skin quality, only past their good quality to a small percentage of offspring.
(Which make them not ideal for breeding....etc)

At the moment, i have no plan to use him for breeding.

The reason i buy this Showa, is beacuse i am interested in Sakai's Magoi x Showa bloodline. I just want to experience it, and comapre it's skin quality with the orginal Matsunosuke bloodline when fully grow.
(The original Matsunosuke bloodline has very good skin quality, but after adding Magoi blood there will be some bad side affects. The skin quality normally will not be as good as the orginal Matsunosuke, and lots of sumi will comes up as the koi grow....etc...)

Regards,
Tony
Hi SAS,
U are right about the magoi blood. It was added to increase the size of the Koi...but that was so many years ago, that now the new matsunosuke line is so well established through selective breeding, that the things U mention are no longer there...they end up just perfect showas...I have 10 of them...and I love their skin quality...
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:20 pm

To be honest I would not be able to distinguish them...magoi or not...But when U talk aboout magoi blood, dont forget that the breeder is trying to reinforce traits that are genetically inherited...large body, good pattern and skin...so ones the genes have been introduced for large body...it remains careful selection of breeding stock to reinforce /cement desirable characteristics in the progeny...
The first offspring of the makoi Koi...were very few that looked like Koi and were bad...so it took him long time to get where he is...But remember many breeders are trying this now...
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PostSubject: RE:   Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:09 pm

Neli wrote:
To be honest I would not be able to distinguish them...magoi or not...But when U talk aboout magoi blood, dont forget that the breeder is trying to reinforce traits that are genetically inherited...large body, good pattern and skin...so ones the genes have been introduced for large body...it remains careful selection of breeding stock to reinforce /cement desirable characteristics in the progeny...
The first offspring of the makoi Koi...were very few that looked like Koi and were bad...so it took him long time to get where he is...But remember many breeders are trying this now...

Hi Neli,

Thanks for your reply.

I didn't forget that the ultimate goal of those Japanese breeders is:

"Create koi that is big, but also have good skin quality. And this genetic can pass on to majority of the offspring" - by corssing Nishikigoi with Magoi.

This is their aim, but it didn't mean that have reached this aim.

This is the reason i buy that showa, is to experience and find out have they reached that goal yet.





But I don't want to add my own opinion in here. If i do that, you will think that i am just a guy that is talking nosenses.

So, i will quote from the conversation that i had with a master who teach me many things about nishikigoi. He is not a Japanese, but an Asian guy that been working in or with Japan's koi farm for many years:

=================================================================

In this conversation we discussed Matsunosuke, Momotaro and the Sanke that Matsunosuke kept to use as oyagoi in the future.

Please look at the picture below:



The Sanke on the left is from "Original Matsunosuke" bloodline, and the one on the right is from the "Magoi x Matsunosuke" bloodline. The one on the left is +-90cm and the one on the right is +100cm. They both wins in koi shows in Japan, and the one on the right won All Japan GC. But this is the All Japan GC with the worst skin quality in recent years, it won because of it's size (+100cm). Please look at the area that i circled, you will see the one on the left has better skin quality.

This shows you that Original Matsunosuke bloodline has better skin quality than the Magoi x Matsunosuke bloodline.

=================================================================


Now last move on and talk about Momotaro, Momotaro used to have a legendary parent Sanke called "Mako".

Mako is breed by Isawa Nishikigoi Center (Sakai), she is form the "Magoi x Matsunosuke" bloodline. She has very good body shape, but sumi, Hi and skin quality are not really the Original Matsunosuke.

She only spawned two times before she die. And Momotaro only kept less than 10 of her offsping. If you were into the koi hobby at that time. You will notice there are many Mako tosai exported to China and other Asian countries.

But why they export so many and only kept a few for themselve? Is it because Momotaro think that all the other koi farm outside Japan should have this good Mako genetic? Of course, the answer is "NO!"

Momotaro's plan was to have kept all the offspirng that have the folowing charateristic:

1) Has good body shape (Magoi Blood)
2) Has sumi, Hi and skin quality of the Original Matsunosuke

The reason why they kept so few, is because only less than 10 have the both mentioned charateristics.

This give you some idea, that to have big body and good skin quality is very difficult.

(Note: Momotaro got a KHV outbreak, so all those Sanke they kept die. So, i guess all the Mako bloodline oyagoi they have are bought back from customers.)

=================================================================


Now last move on and look at Matsunosuke's Sanke that has the oyagoi potnetial.

In April 2010, Sakai's son took use to one of his secert pond and show us the Sanke that he think will be good oyagoi in the future. Of course, those Sanke are not for sale.

All those Sanke got good skin quality, but they are smaller in size comapre to the other Sanke of the same age.

So, do you think he is foolish??? Why don't he keep those with better growth rate ???

The reason is, it is difficult or maybe even impossible for him to find a offspring that can have both large (Magoi body / blood) and still have good skin quality of the Original Matsunosuke bloodline.

This shows you that, they haven't really reached the aim of create a koi which is large and have good skin quality, and able to past his / her genetic to majority of the offspring yet.

Please see below for the photos we took during the visit:







=================================================================

After all, i am no expert. I am just a normal guy who want to share my knowledge and experience. Razz

So, maybe you are right and i could be wrong..... Embarassed

It is very tried to type so many words, don't want to ever do it again..... Mad

Thanks.

Regards,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:31 pm

Hi Tony ,
Thanks very much for the info, I was told the very same thing by Sakuma San on the Tosio bloodline

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:45 am

Hi James.
Thank you for your offer but I already placed my order with Costa. I do my imports with Costa as he knows my taste and exactly knows what I want. No offense to other dealers but me and Costa come a long way already now and to make a long story short it all comes down to loyalty and mentor ship. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:47 am

Hi sas, thank you for that interesting and valuable info. Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:22 pm

Hi, sorry been of line. Wink

Thank you Tony for a comprehensive explanation of Sakai Showa development and its influence on Japans top breeders and farms.

I am sure your, like me visiting Japan is always a learning experience, during my recent trip I was fascinated by the discussions on Koi related matters with regard to the fish on offer at Sakai farm and the meeting of the master himself and his son who is taking over the reins of the business now.

Also in the picture is Matcho from Oya Koi farm and Drew from Koi Water Life farm management and of course Neli from Zambia.

lol! Going through the ponds at Sakai farm and deciding what ponds to net is difficult so many with exceptional quality and prices I was limited to the demand of price range of the South African market, I hope the fish purchased develop into our aspirations?

Along with Go-Sanke, Sakai farm breeds many different top quality varieties, all with the Magoi influence, having a crush on Shiro Utsuri this 60cm two year old took my eye along with this Sanke 2 year old 66cm, the quality of them was brilliant.

Below is some of the pictures taken,

Regards

James Smile



















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PostSubject: RE:   Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:55 am

@ Coasta and Miya Oki Koi,

Thanks for the reply.

I am just sharing what i heard. Very Happy

================================================

@ James,

Thanks for sharing those photos.
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PostSubject: Re: My new Sakai (Isawa) male Showa   Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:26 pm

Hi SAS .
Thanks for the valuable info...very informative!
The breeders dont keep very large amount of oyagoi...but the best...10 is a lot...remember 1 fish can have 1000000eggs...They try different combinations, to see which oyagoi produces the largest % of desirable fry...not all two oyagoi give the same results...that is why U see them always counting when culling.
Also very few fish even from the best parents are perfect.
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