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 can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?

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tategoi-boi



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PostSubject: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:01 pm

these fish are 20-24cm and are going on to two years old soon.
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PhilipV



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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Sun Jun 03, 2012 7:45 am


Hi. It's more difficult to tell while they are still small/young. I'm not that experienced, but I would say the ogon on the right might be female due to the more rounded bodyshape as well as the more rounded pectoral fins. If it is of great importance, it will be best to take them to an experienced keeper/dealer to be sexed. Enjoy your koi.
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:31 am

PhilipV wrote:

I'm not that experienced, but I would say the ogon on the right might be female due to the more rounded bodyshape as well as the more rounded pectoral fins.
.
I also thought that. I haven't had trouble with sexing koi in the past. Then I read an artical on the internet about deformities in ogon koi. The deformities included the tendency for ogons to grow fat aswell as fin deformities, such as absent pectoral fins, sickle shaped fins or very small fins...
This just confused me further, because I know females have smaller rounded fins, and males have larger sharper fins and slender bodies. Then I started to notice that the pec fins in the 'suspected' female were more pointed than that of my karasugoi and shiro bekko females. And then I also noticed that the koi on the left has a slender body, larger pectoral fins but the edges on the fins seem to be more rounded than the koi on the right!?????but I guess I will just have to do some more waiting and reaserch on yamabukis...thanks for the input,very much appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:49 pm

I have posted the link to one of the best articles on the subject a while ago on this forum although I do not agree 100% with everything said:
http://www.yumekoi.com/images/stories/pdfs/Male-or-Female.pdf

Herewith an extract without the photos: Written by Mike Snaden and the article appeared in Koi Carp.

"Many people think that the
sexing of koi is extremely
straight forward, and
that things like body
shape, pectoral fin
shape, or flipping the koi over and looking
at the vent will give us the answer
conclusively in just a few seconds.

Whereas this may be a relatively simple
task, there are many misunderstandings over
what constitutes a male, or female. My hope
with this article is to help you to understand
how the Japanese ascertain the sex of a koi
before it is offered for sale, or kept as tategoi.
Sexing large koi is usually quite easy, and
obvious. In most cases, a breeder can simply
flip the koi over and observe the vent or, if in
doubt, check the koi for milt. With younger
koi like tosai however, it is more a case of
checking various aspects of the koi, and
coming up with a percentage of odds of sex,
like perhaps '80% female'. Although male
tosai can be used for breeding in some cases,
it is quite common for tosai not to be
producing milt. This is when sexing as a
measure of 'odds' comes into play.


One of the most common misconceptions, is
that male koi have bigger pectoral fins than
females. A koi's fin size is absolutely no
indication of sex. It is fair to say that some
males can sometimes have pectoral fins that
are a little more rounded, like table tennis
bats, but just because a koi has fins that are
this shape, or aren't, is no sensible way of
sexing them.

What we can glean from a koi's pectoral
fins though is from their texture, and profile.
Males will tend to have rough leading rays to
their fins, but this isn't always the case.
Sometimes this roughness can't be felt, but
can be seen. This is why you will see breeders
lift a koi from the bowl and watch the water
run off the surface of the pectoral fin. If
female it should appear shiny and smooth,
but a male will look somewhat grainy as the
water runs off. In addition to doing this, the
breeder will also check the profile of the
leading ray of the fin. You see, a male koi's
leading ray will tend to be thicker (stronger),
with a slightly blunt front edge. Females, on
the other hand, will have a more delicate
leading ray, with a front ray profile that draws
to a finer front edge.
A more common way of checking if a koi
is male (when looking for males for breeding)
is to check the gill covers for roughness. But
this method is only really good for checking if
a male is in breeding condition, as during the
rest of the season the koi will more often than
not have smooth gill covers, so this method is
useless if you are looking for female koi.

terms of colour and sumi. This is largely why
small males are frequently entered into koi
shows. So, a male Go-Sanke will generally
have redder colour, and the sumi will tend to
be more developed and finished. But, once
again, this isn't a method that should be used
when trying to sex koi. Even from the same
breeding some male koi will have colour that
appears softer, like a female, and some
females will have colour that appears harder,
like a male.
To further complicate things, different
quality levels between siblings exist, as well
as the fact that some koi will take on
characteristics, like colour, from the male
parents, and some will have the
characteristics of the female parent.
It is quite commonplace for people to
express their opinion of the sex of a koi
because of the appearance of its skin, or
perhaps the white skin on the head looks a
little yellow. This can be the case with koi
but, once again, is something that should
be disregarded. Confused? Whilst female
koi will tend to have cleaner skin than
males, their condition can change
depending on their surroundings. The
feeding of higher protein food, particularly
at warmer temperatures, can cause the skin
to become either slightly muddy in
appearance, or very slightly yellow. Colour
enhancing foods can also cause the same
effect. It is also common for females
(particularly large koi) to take on a muddy
or yellow appearance during late August
and September. This happens because of
the koi going through its natural process of
breaking down and disposing of eggs. Once
this process is complete the skin will
become brighter once again.

body shape
Body shape is a tricky area when it comes to
choosing koi. Many inexperienced hobbyists
will often make the mistake of thinking that a
female koi is in fact male, or vice versa, based
on its body shape. Not only is it possible to
make a mistake by judging a body shape, but
it is also possible to buy an inferior koi if
judged on this basis.

If you are looking for a male koi for breeding
purposes, you can gently squeeze and run your
hand towards the vent. If milt comes out, then it's
male. But, don't assume that the fish is female if
there isn't milt!
This male is of reasonably high quality and, as
you can see, the colour is very red. Male koi stay
in good condition very easily, and are very well
suited to harsher environments.


With high-end female
tategoi the challenge
is to keep the koi
from finishing until it
becomes Jumbo.

Male koi will tend to be slimmer
than females, granted. But, young males
will tend to have more body to them,
and have a tendency to become slimmer
as they get bigger. But this isn't always
the case. Some male koi can become
Jumbo, and even have big bodies like
females. Likewise, female koi can often
appear to have male bodies. In fact,
when buying relatively young koi, like
nisai (two-years old), a more desirable
female will have a strong, but slim,
body. A koi with a great deal of volume
at this size, and particularly one that
appears to be carrying eggs, will seldom
get big.
It should also be pointed out that
not many female koi will grow Jumbo.
Genetics plays a huge part and, even
with the right genetics, you need to buy
a koi with the right body type if you
want one that will get big. In other
words, don't simply buy female koi
because you think they all get big.
reaching a peak
Another consideration when looking at
male or female koi, is the duration of
fun you can have from them. Male koi
develop faster but are generally easier
to keep, and stay looking good for a
long time. Females on the other hand
are the ultimate fun, if you have good
raising techniques.
With high-end female tategoi the
challenge is to keep the koi from
finishing until it becomes Jumbo, and
then slowly raise it to its optimum
condition. The reason for growing
females in this manner is that their
colour and sumi develops more slowly
than males. Also, once a female reaches
its peak it will then start to decline
again in quality a year or two later. This
is the reason that high-class females
should be nurtured ideally in softer
water, or mud ponds. The mud pond
inhibits the koi's development, hence
creating a koi that reaches its peak later
in life, making for a much more
beautiful koi as Jumbo.
If on the other hand you raise a koi
in harder water, or you choose to use a
lot of clays or other mineral additives,
the koi will reach its peak much earlier
in life. Whereas these clays and mineral
additives are great for conditioning koi
for shows, they also limit the growth of
the koi. If raising koi in such a manner,
it is almost pointless trying to make it
Jumbo as the condition of the koi will
be on the decline a long time before it
gets big!

As far as growing koi to Jumbo are
concerned, if you know that you can
keep females in fantastic condition, and
make them Jumbo, great! But if you can
only perhaps grow (or only wish to grow)
koi to a maximum of say 70cm, then
perhaps you are better off looking for
male koi that have a likelihood of getting
reasonably big. At least such koi will
keep in good enough condition for them
to get as big as you are hoping for."

_________________
Paul Viljoen
E Mail: koi@absamail.co.za ; http://www.koionline.co.za

Koi are not my whole life but make my life whole
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tategoi-boi



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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:15 pm

thank you very much Mr Viljoen. Do you know if the the thicker leading rays are present through-out the males life? or do they come along with the rough bumps on the fins & gills as the koi reaches sexual maturity?
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:25 pm

I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week. Wink

The one on the right has the look of a strong male. Very big head and mouth, regardless of its sex its going to a big fish - i hope you have a big pond. The one on the left looks more feminine...so maybe your'e lucky.
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tategoi-boi



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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:27 pm

wayneb wrote:
I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week. Wink

Yip you know exactly where I bought them lol...I actually went there looking for showa and shiro utsuri, then I saw these... I have never seen ogon with such clean skin tone ever before so I just had to get them. My pond is approx 6thousand litres with at least 25 goldfish over 20 cm,3 stunted petshop koi, a hybrid and another 5 koi under 30cm incl these two is that big enough?
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:25 am

tategoi-boi wrote:
wayneb wrote:
I think i know where these koi where bought - i swear that i had the right hand one in my bowl last week. Wink

Yip you know exactly where I bought them lol...I actually went there looking for showa and shiro utsuri, then I saw these... I have never seen ogon with such clean skin tone ever before so I just had to get them. My pond is approx 6thousand litres with at least 25 goldfish over 20 cm,3 stunted petshop koi, a hybrid and another 5 koi under 30cm incl these two is that big enough?

Remove all the fish you have in there now and just keep the ogon's together and build a collection from these 2.

You have far too many fish in your pond, I would not keep anything more than 4 - 5 fish in there to help them reach as much of their potential as possible.

You can donate the others to someone in the junkmail quickly.

Your petshop koi are stunted possibly because the pond is so overcrowded.

How deep is your pond?
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:44 am

I've already removed most of the goldfish but I am only willing to get rid of one of the koi.the others are still babies at the moment and these yamabuki are the largest out of the young ones. But I guess I would have to see how they grow without the goldfish first before I decide to let go of the others.
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PostSubject: Re: can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?   Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:20 am

The pond is around 800mil deep.
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can anyone tell if these yamabuki ogon are male or female?

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