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PostSubject: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeFri Feb 17, 2012 11:58 am

The ponds of quite a few hobbyists in the Gauteng area was infected with KHV the past two weeks and I know of two confirmed cases in the Cape Town area.

I believe that there are many more.

It has also been widely reported that one of the largest koi farms in Japan apparently has KHV, and there are various reports of KHV outbreaks across the globe, especially Germany.

I wish to issue a warning, please be aware of the threat and only buy from trusted dealers who are willing to provide you their latest KHV free certificates and who guarantee thir fish to be KHV free. It is not worth taking any chances.

There are currently various rumors flying around on which dealers might be infected. Unfortunately it is very difficult to pinpoint the source of the latest outbreak.

Should you encounter large losses, please consider the possibility that it might be KHV and do the testings. The procedure is described on this forum.

Please also keep us posted. A informed koi community is a strong community. We have to try and find the source of this dreadful decease and we can not fold our hands while some dealers might be selling KHV infected fish, or for that matter, fish that have not undergone proper KHV quarantine procedures or fish that has not been tested properly.

If the SA koi community does not support each other, and if we do not talk about the problem, and if we allow the decease to take control, our Government will stop the import of all koi, which will be a sad day.


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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeFri Feb 17, 2012 9:28 pm

Skrikwekkend! Ek neem kennis-baie dankie,Paul.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeFri Feb 17, 2012 10:31 pm

Yes Paul, this is devastating, however I could not agree with you more that the source must be identified to prevent other keepers from contracting this deadly virus.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSat Feb 18, 2012 12:53 pm

What I suggest is all people affected should post the names of the dealers they bought fish in the past 2 month from like David, without blame trowing...maybe a common denominator will be found, and koi keepers alerted to prevent future disasters.
With the current attitude of forums protecting dealers , deleting posts, People complaining that KOISA knew for 2 month and not alerting the public...it is a formula for disaster!
We need to be protected...
I am now scared...Want to come in May, but from whom should I not buy fish I dont know! Might not buy from anyone in this situation...if I dont know who is the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 2:15 pm

Colin Hunt wrote:
Yes Paul, this is devastating, however I could not agree with you more that the source must be identified to prevent other keepers from contracting this deadly virus.

Collin, i agree with you 100% thus is why i decided to move back to this forum where Paul at least allowed us to talk about the subject. At the moment everyone just wants to hush things up as always. And strange enough its always the same people.

Its impossible that this is a latency outbreak. There are outbreaks in this country and in Germany. There are reports on koi-bito aswell. That tells me its imports most probable from Japan. I keep a eye on the http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/disease.html site. Thus far they have not mentioned that have found anything official yet.

Innocent people are getting KHV by buying from infected sources so right now no-one is buying anything cause everyone is scared, its bad for the market and for everyone's business. If people do not wish to name the SA dealers that have / had KHV then atleast knowing the Japanese farms that might have it will be a way to stay safe.

My dealers that i use are Costa & Cape Koi Aquarium as long as they are clean im happy.


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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 2:33 pm

Could not agree more Wayne. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 3:00 pm

wayneb wrote:

Its impossible that this is a latency outbreak. .

Not impossible, but I agree, I think it is from new imports, not only Japan but also Israel ?

And yes, I believe the dealer can mostly be blamed for insufficient quarantine procedures and testing.

I have seen on too many occasions how dealers take newly imported fish directly to koi shows for sale or starts selling within a week or two. Something that is extremely difficult to police. When we sell koi at koi showss, we have to furnish SAKKS with KHV free certificates. However, we as dealers do the testing, and there are no control over which fish gets tested. It purely gives prospective buyers a false sense of security.

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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 3:12 pm

Paul / Colin

Lets chat about the preventative measures a bit. Everyone is scared, no one knows where to buy now...not that im in the market right now. Razz I have not bought any new fish since July.

Costa for example always give me a KHV certificate i assume its for the batch and not that particular fish. Can one have the tests done on a particular fish without harming it?

What are the costs involved? etc etc...

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 3:47 pm

Koi from the participating breeders in Niigata (all the famous breeders) gets tested on a regular basis and when we import, we get the records of the latest tests done.

We also need a Health and specifically HKV free certificate issued by the Government of Japan which is part of our Import permit requirements.

We use one of the largest agents in Japan exporting koi(Ornafish International, now Ornafish Japan), and because their reputation is at risk, they do further testing of all batches in Amsterdam (Lelistadt) before they send the fish. We normally get this results a week after arrival.

When the fish arrives in South Africa, we quarantine them for 5-6 weeks, trying to force out any KHV if present, by manipulating the temperature and by introducing low quality "feeder" fish to them.

If all goes well, we send (representative swob's = 3 per batch) of all batches (each separate breeder) to MDS and only after receipt of the results, we start to sell.

If a buyer insists on a result on the specific fish he buys, we do that at cost being R 165.00.

Sakks also insist on recent KHV results before we may sell at a show. In another words, by the time we sell a fish at a show, the batch it comes from has been tested 4 times. I don't know of any dealer who tests each and every individual fish.

When a hobbyist buys a fish, he should also quarantine the fish, and it is actually recommended that he also test the fish before being released into his main pond, especially if they show any signs of ill health. It all depends on what risk you are prepared to take.

There are dealers out there who do not buy from respected breeders, organise a KHV free certificate to comply with theimport permit, and sells the moment the fish arrive in SA.

On your question as to the procedure to test, it is actually very simple. You take a swab (rolling it through the mouth and gills and body) and send it. Clippings are not necessary and very little stress is involved.


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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 3:50 pm

Thanks Paul, at R 165 a test i think this will just get added onto my purchases from now on.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 9:15 pm

wayneb wrote:
Colin Hunt wrote:
Yes Paul, this is devastating, however I could not agree with you more that the source must be identified to prevent other keepers from contracting this deadly virus.

Collin, i agree with you 100% thus is why i decided to move back to this forum where Paul at least allowed us to talk about the subject. At the moment everyone just wants to hush things up as always. And strange enough its always the same people.


Its impossible that this is a latency outbreak. There are outbreaks in this country and in Germany. There are reports on koi-bito aswell. That tells me its imports most probable from Japan. I keep a eye on the http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/disease.html site. Thus far they have not mentioned that have found anything official yet.

Innocent people are getting KHV by buying from infected sources so right now no-one is buying anything cause everyone is scared, its bad for the market and for everyone's business. If people do not wish to name the SA dealers that have / had KHV then atleast knowing the Japanese farms that might have it will be a way to stay safe.

My dealers that i use are Costa & Cape Koi Aquarium as long as they are clean im happy.
Wayne,
What I think is all this secrecy breeds mistrust, and speculations...Probably because of this innocent people/dealers also might come under suspicion for nothing.
I think only a person with personal interests can try to hash things...As Admin said, this is a new infection...it is very acute and it will not affect so many fish if it was latent infection...
Lets say David had Koi with latent infection, that are shading the virus. Fish that is not exposed to the virus before will react. Most likely new fish .Only some fish...not all of them as opposed to an infected fish is introduced to naive fish and U have massive moralities.David has massive moralities, I suspect it is from a new fish introduced...
Now knowing that if KHV is introduced to a naive fish it takes max of 26 days for the fish to show symptoms...I can not understand it????
Any one has any ideas?
As far as I know...like from marusei only older fish are infected....the rest seem to be OK.
Is there any chance it came from that batch?Is it a large fish that caused it?
I know for sure of one dealer who had his fish wiped out by KHV in Jbg this year.He has remained silent up to date...I will not mention names but I am 100% sure about it. I still hope he will be honest about it.
If I in Zambia know it, then more people in SA should know it too.
What I would like to know is if that dealer notified the people he sold koi to of it.Because that would be the decent thing to do!
Maybe that dealer promised some people (IMHO) to replace their fish and that is why they are not disclosing his name? Can it be?
We know of people on the forum that are having problems...what about the people that have never been on the forum...We will never know about them...maybe they dont even know what KHV is...
For short many people can be put off by this and stop even keeping Koi...
I dont trust this nishikigoi as well. before they used to disclose the names of the breeders...now they have stopped. Maybe they will stop announcing the outbreaks Now?
And how long it will take 250 ponds to be tested ? I think a long time...by the time We know...it will be too late.
Who is going to protect the hobbyist? It seems SAKKS is protecting the dealers...
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 9:40 pm

I think U should just make an organisation to protect U...Dealers that are not members should be considered unsafe dealers.
If someone has an outbreak he can complain to them and they can do investigation/testing to see who it the culprit, and notify every one.
Ones a dealer is clean, he can be tested and declared free of KHV officially.
Now who takes the tests which fish is tested...no one knows apart from the dealer...
How meaningful is this test to me, if I know that the dealer will not disclose if he has it...
If that organisation tests the dealers regularly and independently ...I will feel more protected and safe.
Even 3 tests a year or after each consignment is enough...
I think all that deleting of posts, censoring every thing, is not a productive solution...at Koi4U.
U are all grown up, to be monitored and treated like children and reminded all the time that it is a private forum, and U can only say what they want U to say.U can not disagree with few people's opinions...or your post will be deleted.Members post in fear...U dont know how many complaints i get, and how many people dont want to post there.
Every one is entitled to an opinion.
What is that forum all about? Is it about the Koi and the koi hobbyists interests? Or something else?
I honestly dont get it!
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeSun Feb 19, 2012 10:12 pm

Neli, the problem has many sides.

1. We the hobbists dont know who we can trust and we want names. (To be fair, you cant name dealers with KHV cause its like naming people with HIV")

2. If the dealer does come out and say "hi all, sorry i had KHV but i cleaned it all up and everything is OK" then the people that lost koi are going to seek compensation and he is going to be ruined as no one will buy from him again. So he saves his own butt by saying nothing.

3. The other dealers are also upset as this is now affecting ther bussiness so they also want names...But now the gossip starts and i am sure sometimes the wrong people get accused. So this is when people start threatning with legal action.

4. The forums sit in the middle, hobbists use them and the dealers and in many situation like here in SA the forum belongs to a dealer. So it becomes a tricky situation. I mean if the dealer on the forum does not like what you are saying he simple removes your post. Even this forum had a period where it was so pro SAKKS that it would delete your posts if you said anything bad about them, thankfully it has evolved since then. The deleting of posts all comes down to whom the forum is loyal. Team A or Team B? SA has 3 forums and all has had simular problems and i think all 3 got formed due to break-away groups. Once there was only 1, a SAKKS forum. Its no more - gone long time ago.

Koi-bito is better in that aspect, they dont delete posts and are not loyal to any particular group. They dont delete posts but have a area in the forum where posts get removed to. They replace the post they delete with referce to the new location. So its no longer in the main topic that people are reading but you can still go and see what someone said. Its more transparent that way. They have only once deleted topics completely and that was when 2 South Africas was making rasist comments on the forum. Also something i dont aprove off is having an active forum using hobbyist being a moderator. It becomes far to easy to delete things off people you dont like or things you dont agree with. Its got this feeling of communism and the secret police where the public has no voice.

5. SAKKS / KOISA also sits in the middle. The hobbyist wants them to act on their behalf but they need the dealers and they need the hobbyists to maintain a active community. There has also been allogations in the past that infected fish where sold by dealers at their koi shows. So it does put them in a tough spot. So they sit in the same situation as some of the forums maybe even worse than the forums. My feeling has been the last while in anycase that its not their responsiblity to do anything, they provide the event and we attend. What transpires there is not their fault.

6. The person that got KHV has no leg to stand on as the dealers and the public always throw old latency move. Just curiouse that right now right over the world there are KHV outbreaks all at the same time....latency? please.... Best the person that got KHV can do is to try and find out from where he got it, chat to that source. Dont seek compensation. Just make sure no one else faills into the trap.

So it is never going to play out like we want it. Emotionaly i want number 1) but logically thinking it is not going to happen.

Your only defence is stick with the reputable big dealers that you know, leave the little unknown guys alone and listen to the grapevine. I already got 2 names of dealers that had possitve KHV test this year. No proof, all via the grapevine.

The things we do to avoid HIV can be applied to KHV.
Dont shop around. / Dont sleep around.
Have fixed dealers. / Have fixed partners.
Before you receive koi from a dealer QT and do the test yourself. / Have your new partner tested.

Any case. This KHV thing is going to be over soon and in a few months no one will remember. Its has happend in exactly the same manner 3/4 times since i have been involved with koi. A outbreak, the big noise from dealers and hobbysits. The search for the culprit. The silencing of people, the deleting of topics and posts on forums. People phoning each other. Threatening people with legal action. A article in KOISA about the KHV outbreak and the big losses and what we can do to protect ourselfs. And then its all over, till next year.

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 12:26 pm

wayneb wrote:
Neli, the problem has many sides.

1. We the hobbists dont know who we can trust and we want names. (To be fair, you cant name dealers with KHV cause its like naming people with HIV")

2. If the dealer does come out and say "hi all, sorry i had KHV but i cleaned it all up and everything is OK" then the people that lost koi are going to seek compensation and he is going to be ruined as no one will buy from him again. So he saves his own butt by saying nothing.
If a dealer gets KHV from Japan, He is compensated. Why should then He deny that right for the customer? It is his fault, that He did not test, QT his fish well. All I hope that from all this experiences will come something good out. Dealers should be more serious with their testing and QT procedure.

3. The other dealers are also upset as this is now affecting ther bussiness so they also want names...But now the gossip starts and i am sure sometimes the wrong people get accused. So this is when people start threatning with legal action.
E#very one is affected by this. Me U all dealers...and that is because people have resorted to speculations and rumors...for the truth is not there to see it.

4. The forums sit in the middle, hobbists use them and the dealers and in many situation like here in SA the forum belongs to a dealer. So it becomes a tricky situation. I mean if the dealer on the forum does not like what you are saying he simple removes your post. Even this forum had a period where it was so pro SAKKS that it would delete your posts if you said anything bad about them, thankfully it has evolved since then. The deleting of posts all comes down to whom the forum is loyal. Team A or Team B? SA has 3 forums and all has had simular problems and i think all 3 got formed due to break-away groups. Once there was only 1, a SAKKS forum. Its no more - gone long time ago.
I will answer this in a separate post, after this.

Koi-bito is better in that aspect, they dont delete posts and are not loyal to any particular group. They dont delete posts but have a area in the forum where posts get removed to. They replace the post they delete with referce to the new location. So its no longer in the main topic that people are reading but you can still go and see what someone said. Its more transparent that way. They have only once deleted topics completely and that was when 2 South Africas was making rasist comments on the forum. Also something i dont aprove off is having an active forum using hobbyist being a moderator. It becomes far to easy to delete things off people you dont like or things you dont agree with. Its got this feeling of communism and the secret police where the public has no voice.
I think it is even worse than that!


5. SAKKS / KOISA also sits in the middle. The hobbyist wants them to act on their behalf but they need the dealers and they need the hobbyists to maintain a active community. There has also been allogations in the past that infected fish where sold by dealers at their koi shows. So it does put them in a tough spot. So they sit in the same situation as some of the forums maybe even worse than the forums. My feeling has been the last while in anycase that its not their responsiblity to do anything, they provide the event and we attend. What transpires there is not their fault.
That is why I advocated a body that can protect the hobbyist...Even a Vet in each province appointed in each province that can take the tests of the dealers...at list after each consignment, and issue official statement on the forum.It is obvious that delers that agree to participate in the program, will have to agree to full disclosure! That way every one is happy! They can even add R10 to the price of each fish, to cover the cost of the test and bill the customer separately for it. Out of 50 fish maybe two or three need to be tested , so that I am sure will cover the test. One swab can be taken also from different fish...
It is not hard to organize or implement...No one can forse a dealer to participate but also no one can force a person to buy from him. It will bring confidence in the industry!


6. The person that got KHV has no leg to stand on as the dealers and the public always throw old latency move. Just curiouse that right now right over the world there are KHV outbreaks all at the same time....latency? please.... Best the person that got KHV can do is to try and find out from where he got it, chat to that source. Dont seek compensation. Just make sure no one else faills into the trap.
The only people that make money here are breeders and dealers, I feel they should be responsible for what they sale to Us.It is just a normal procedure! But where money are concerned....it becomes a totally different issue!

So it is never going to play out like we want it. Emotionaly i want number 1) but logically thinking it is not going to happen.

Your only defence is stick with the reputable big dealers that you know, leave the little unknown guys alone and listen to the grapevine. I already got 2 names of dealers that had possitve KHV test this year. No proof, all via the grapevine.

The things we do to avoid HIV can be applied to KHV.
Dont shop around. / Dont sleep around.
Have fixed dealers. / Have fixed partners.
Before you receive koi from a dealer QT and do the test yourself. / Have your new partner tested.

Any case. This KHV thing is going to be over soon and in a few months no one will remember. Its has happend in exactly the same manner 3/4 times since i have been involved with koi. A outbreak, the big noise from dealers and hobbysits. The search for the culprit. The silencing of people, the deleting of topics and posts on forums. People phoning each other. Threatening people with legal action. A article in KOISA about the KHV outbreak and the big losses and what we can do to protect ourselfs. And then its all over, till next year.

Wayne
That is so sad! And it does not need to be!
I respect Pongoi koi for his full disclosure and will trust him any time!
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 4:08 pm

Neli's post deleted because it is off the topic and a personal attack. Costa and Wayne's reponses therefore also had to be deleted as it was a response to the post deleted.

Please keep to the subject.

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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 4:31 pm

Thank you admin. I wrote to INPC yesterday and received this mail today. As i understand from the email there has been NO possitive KHV results from the farm in question.

Quote :
My name is Yoshi Takada, Director of INPC http://www.japan-nishikigoi.org/

When the news about KHV came a month ago, it said "Hirasawa" bled KHV infected Koi.
As there are six famous breeders in Niigata having the family name "Hirasawa", I checked out and found that German breeders are saying "Hirasawa of Marusei".
Then I got in touch with Mr. Mano, Chairman of All Japan Nishikigoi Promotion Association (Shinkokai) and he gathered the study team to define the situation. I got his answer "KHV infected Koi cannot be confirmed at Marusei". Then I checked out with several breeders outside Japan who imported Koi from Marusei and found several German and Asian breeders who imported Koi from Marusei at the same time from same ponds, but none of them reported KHV infected Koi from those.
This is what I can tell you at this stage.

To define the breeder who made the shipment of KHV koi is very difficult.
Also we have to see the risk of misunderstanding from same family names. As you know, many breeders have same family name. For instance, Mano is the family name of Dainichi and Izumiya. There are three Igarashi as koi breeders. Hirasawa is very common name. Isa is the same. Kawakami Koi farm is famous but Torazo's family name is also Kawakami.

This is the reason why we are so sensitive and prudent attitude. When KHV infected Koi are confirmed at the breeder's site as well as koi dealer(s) or koi hobbyist(s), Niigata prefecture takes their most severe guideline, the breeder must kill all the Koi and must stop the total operation for two full years.

Regards,

Yoshi Takada
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeMon Feb 20, 2012 6:45 pm

This is what I know (saw):
several German breeders have it
They spoke to each other and all suspected the same source.
Out of a consignment of koi put in separate vats,(different breeder in different vat) only one vat had it.
They posted on their web sites and sent emails to customers about it...(I have one of the emails)
Where can it come from then, and would the German breeders lie about it...and for what reason?
Also they mentioned particular size being infected.

This is what he says:
When the news about KHV came a month ago, it said "Hirasawa" bled KHV infected Koi.
As there are six famous breeders in Niigata having the family name "Hirasawa", I checked out and found that German breeders are saying "Hirasawa of Marusei".
Then I got in touch with Mr. Mano, Chairman of All Japan Nishikigoi Promotion Association (Shinkokai) and he gathered the study team to define the situation. I got his answer "KHV infected Koi cannot be confirmed at Marusei"
and
Hirasawa is very common name.
I dont know if they did tests at all Hirasawa farms if they are so many?
Where did the German breeders got it from then...What do U think? For me it is a puzzle.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 21, 2012 10:17 am

According to my information there are no problems at Marusei. Also received KHV free results on all the major farms from my agent in Japan issued today including Marusei.

KHV 2012 Hirasawa-khv


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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 21, 2012 11:40 am

Admin,
Are this the results from your own Koi that U imported???I see box No....
What size were this Koi?
It was mentioned by the German breeders that it was found in a particular batch of Koi...ones older than 2 years...
Now I am adding 2+2 and coming up with 5 (maybe???)
I found on the internet a guy that bought a box of fish from Marusei (dont know how true it is) two years ago...and the Koi were KHV positive...
Marusei has 250 ponds...it maybe that some are infected and some are Not???? No?
This is what I am thinking...as a possibility...I asked my self:
If I was a Japanese breeder, with 250 ponds, and I know that if KHV is found on my premises,and I will be closed for 2 years (no business) and my Koi destroyed...and my business will be affected badly, What will I do if one of my customers complained that I sold them KHV infected fish? After all I will be the first to know....in Japan.
First I will try to find out from which pond this fish came out of...and how true it is ...
Then, I will put some thing in that pond to kill all the fish...and I will bury the fish...before authorities come to inspect me...
Then I will promise compensation to the dealer to keep my name out of it...after all the compensation will come from Marusei...so it is not in his interest to mention me.
It is just too much at stake not to do that...
If I know that I will loose millions of dollars...and that not all my ponds are affected...that is what I will do for sure...
I just wonder, how many people can do it...
Where money are concerned....your livelihood...what will one do to survive?
The question that I will sale KHV positive koi knowingly is totally out...but I would for sure try to minimize my losses.
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 21, 2012 12:25 pm

Neli wrote:
Are this the results from your own Koi that U imported???I see box No....

No Neli, I have not ordered or imported this year yet, I am still deciding from which breeders. I have three years ago, and received great value for money.

Will I import from Marusei ever again? No,
Why not, they say they are clear and they offer great value for money?, Purely because of rumours, and why take the chance?
Will I buy from breeders or dealers having survivors on their premises? No
Will I buy from breeders who had any form of KHV outbreak the past four years? No


This is why it is so important not to spread rumours before we are 100% sure.
On the other hand, we need to be open and we need to be informed.

Where is the balance?

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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeTue Feb 21, 2012 4:28 pm

Look at the vet report:
http://www.koieagle.nl/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?442778
http://www.themtherekoyas.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1829
Look here too:How many farms from Niigata are infected last year
http://www.maff.go.jp/j/syouan/tikusui/koi/k_pcr/2011/h23folder.html
It is so sad!
Also the shinkokai organisation does not want to name breeders with KHV...how safe are We?
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeWed Feb 22, 2012 10:50 pm

It has just been revealed on another forum that Koi Depot had KHV 3 months ago from Taiwan imports.

Sadly, I see they are not on David's list, so where did his come from?
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PostSubject: Re: KHV 2012   KHV 2012 Icon_minitimeThu Feb 23, 2012 6:50 am

We will never know! Latency issue is very handy, when dealers dont want to admit that they had it!
I new about koi Depot since last year...as far as I am...There are 2 more I am waiting for to admit that they had it....
But one of them does not post on forums.
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