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Cliff

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PostSubject: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 11:22 am

Noticed these marks on one of my Asagi's tail fin and he has 2 marks on his dorsal.....not sure if you will see the dorsal fin marks....what is this exactly?

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Anver

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 11:53 am

Hi Cliff

Looks like carpox to me ,i maybe wrong.
There is really nothing you can it might disappear with the temp warming up now.

Anver
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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 11:59 am

spoke to another source this morning and he advised it could be carp pox or it could be aramonis coming out in the fish.

I have lost 4 fish in the last month, lifting scales on 3 of them and 1 just dead, no visible marks etc.

I consulted another friend and it seemed aramonis is common now, and from additional reading I read that when the temps rise aramonis (bad bacteria) becomes active quickly and that failed kidneys\dropsy is one of the side effects of it.....cos I cannot really put it down to bad genetics all off a sudden on 3 different fish and say that I was lucky enough to had genetic kidney failures within a month?

So just trying to establish if someone could say it is aramonis coming out or carpox....well, that would be from looking at photo's which I know is not ideal
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 12:16 pm

Hi Cliff

Although it is already late and water is a lot warmer, I agree with Anver, I also have 2 or 3 fish with Carpox, Just leave it alone it will go away into the summer.
I tried to treat one the other day by scraping it and rubbing with VirkonS but now have lost part of the fin.

Aeromonas comes in red marks on your fish and turns into Ulcers, mainly as a result of parasite activity. This is a difficult time of year, we tend to feed too much too soon and our filters have not yet caught up after the winter. One should slowly increase feeding volumes to give your backteria a chance to catch up, as well as the fish has to get it's metabolism going.

Did you do that Spring treatment we advised, just as a matter of interest.
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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 1:37 pm

Hi Neville,

I did 2 repetitive PP treatments at 2.5g per 1000lts on my pond last weekend.

I have since done 75kg's of salt in my pond on wednesday. Been doing 10% water changes every 2nd day for the past week and a half as well.

I noticed my doits had abit of redness on his side, looks like a flashing injury and not an ulcer which is formed from a "pimple" ....treating it with wound gel and wound med.

Caught a few fish yesterday to check bellies etc and have to say that none have sored or ulcers on them. I clipped the one goshiki's dorsal fin this morning as it had hardened and was worried it could pierce or injur some of my other fish.....Other than that they appear very health and happy
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 2:55 pm

Hi Cliff, and all

Potasium Permanganate will only eradicate solids in your pond the first and second treatment and it is useless for any parasite treatment, you have to go the full cycle, IE 5 days Min and even then the water has to remain purple for at least 6 hours otherwise you have to go 1 more day.

Underdosing any medication is a sure way of establishing immunity to the treatment.

At 2,5 Gram per 1000Lt it is a very light and safe dose and will not stress your fish.

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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 3:45 pm

I lost I fish during the PP process.....whether it was due to the PP or it being sick (bloated with dropsy)...just dont want to take a chance incase any of my fish have bad gills now the PP is going to kill them.

Also too many different opinions with regards to doing this and that so just doing what I feel is right.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 6:46 pm

Chiff,

Potassium Permanganate will kill the following parasites:

Ichthyopthirius multifilis ( Ich or White spot)
Costia
Chilodonella
Trichodina
and flukes

Your treatment was spot-on!
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 7:23 pm

Neville wrote:
it is useless for any parasite treatment

PP will kill most parasites in the pond and on the koi but because one usually bypasses the filter some parasites survive and that is why one does the 5 treatments for PP however when doing the PP dip it will kill most parasites and one only needs to do a PP dip once. PP looses its strength if the pond is very dirty and then does not continue to kill parasites. With the PP pond treatment you can start with 2.5g / 1000l and work your way up to 4g / 1000l within the same day.

I do not recommend the PP Pond treatment usually as it is really damaging to pond eco system and you can find yourself with new pond syndrome very quickly. PP is also very damaging to the gills of koi so it should be treated with respect and not be used as a general purpose cleaner. I prefer the PP dip over the PP Pond treatment but sometimes one has no choice but to do the PP Pond treatment.
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 9:41 pm

Hi all

I reiterate

Potasium permanganate does nothing for parasites during the first two treatments, only after the third treatment it attacks parasites. So if you only do 2 treatments it wont kill any parasites.
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 9:43 pm

Hi Wayne

Please do not only read part of my statement, read the full statement that I am making.
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 10:03 pm

Hi Wayne

You surely cannot individually dip each fish and expect the parasites in the pond to disappear, Therefore when you have a general problem the pond should be treated.
Individual fish can only be treated when the problem is isolated, and not throughout the pond.

The importance of the spring treatment is elevated here. If it is done in time no problems will ensue.
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 10:06 pm

Pieter J de Villiers wrote:
Chiff,


Your treatment was spot-on!

It could not be spot on as it was not completed. Two treatments of PP does not eradicate parasites.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 11:07 pm

Cliff wrote:
I lost I fish during the PP process.....whether it was due to the PP or it being sick (bloated with dropsy)...just dont want to take a chance incase any of my fish have bad gills now the PP is going to kill them.

Also too many different opinions with regards to doing this and that so just doing what I feel is right.

Hi Cliff, we all fall into the trap of forcing a new pond to soon, we all under estimate NPS and stocking levels for new ponds.

We should refrain form buying all over the place and stick to one or two dealers that stock the quality you are looking for and displays the bio-security principals that you are happy with.

I.M.O the policy of purchasing 10 koi at a R 500.00 at regular intervals as this is more affordable against a policy of lets say one of R 2500.00 at less frequent intervals is also biting us in the butt with stocking levels.

In order to minimise problems at an early stage, the effected Koi should be separated a scrape should be done and a swap of the infected areas send to a laboratory for testing that will tell you what treatment to apply. The longer we delay this process the more problems we can expect in the long term.

I agree with you on the different answers from hobbyist, but as the hobby is practised on so many different levels opinions and experiences will differ.

I believe that the web site of Koi 4 You has some sound info.
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Chris Maritz

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeFri Oct 08, 2010 11:32 pm

Hi Cliff

It looks like carppox to me... If this is the only fish showing these spots I wouldn't worry too much. Just monitor and make sure it doesn't get worse. If it was bacteria infecting the fins you'll notice red veins and the fins will start deteriorating, you'll notice the finrot easily.

Coming to the other problem with dropsy... You know that the only substance that's known to have cured dropsy is Acriflavin used at 10x the recommended strength for extended periods. This is only the case if you can start treatment in the early stages. You can dip a fish with dropsy in PP all you want and it wont work.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeSat Oct 09, 2010 9:04 am

Hi,

Ek het gevind dat 'n dosis van tussen 1,5 - 4 gm per 1000lt onder seker omstandighede toegedien kan word., solank die ORP lesing nie meer as 450 mV vir langer as vier ure gehandhaaf word nie.
Al die bronne wat ek nagegaan het verwys na 'n max. van drie behandelings met 'n "rus tyd" van tussen 5 en 7 dae tussen elke behandeling.

Gaan lees ook hier:

http://koionline.forumotion.com/medication-f39/potassium-permanganate-pp-t386.htm?highlight=potasium+permanganate

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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeSat Oct 09, 2010 10:17 am

Hi All

Herewith a "Copy and Paste" of a Doc. Johsone article.


is a purple granular powder that kills 99.9% of exposed pathogenic bacteria, kills most ciliate parasites, most fluke parasitisms, fungal infections and oxidizes organics in the water, leaving it cleaner and fresher than before treatment. Not many products have such a broad spectrum and can be used in extremely cold water.

Treatment guidelines:

For flukes you should treat every third or fourth day for three or four treatments.

For ciliate parasites you should treat every day for five treatments.

Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) is a powerful oxidizer clears many ciliated protozoans, flukes, fungi and bacterial infections. Dosage and interval are critical. Use caution and dose carefully, avoid contact with skin, eyes or mucous membranes. Bypass filter and increase aeration and circulation. Can be neutralized with dechlorinator or hydrogen peroxide. Full details with product.

The presence of large amounts of organic debris, uneaten food, dead fish, leaves, dead plants will cause the potassium to spend it's energy on oxidizing the organics, not on the parasites or ulcers.

The presence of dechlorinator in the water will inactivate the treatment. (Latency 2 days)

The presence of Hydrogen peroxide will inactivate treatment. (Latency 3 days)

Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) can kill a lot of algae, increasing oxygen demand, especially in warm water over eighty degrees.

If carelessly overdosed, it will kill your fish. It also kills 99.9% of exposed beneficial bacteria so you're advised to avoid letting it pass through your filter.
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeSat Oct 09, 2010 1:01 pm

Potasium will kill Tricodina in one treatment !!
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeSat Oct 09, 2010 2:41 pm

Hi Jaco

What about the eggs and the ones that was hiding in the filter, and of course all the other goggo's in the pond. You have to do the cycle to get rid of them all, and their eggs, that is the whole idea of the exercise not.
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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 9:04 am

James Norrie (thanks James) came out to have a look at my pond and he said himself that I am not dealing with an epedemic or anything like that. Said I am more than anything dealing with abit of NPS and that I must stop the PP treatments and let the pond establish itself now. Switch off the UV's, even let the pond go abit green and let the algae on the walls grow etc etc....that I must also up my salt to 0.7%, I'm doing 2 water changes weekly to bring the level down slowly. Currently on 0.58% salt.

Also injected the fish I was concerned about with Fortum and medicated with propolis on the fins, bodies etc.

Chris, I was aware that the PP would not do anything for the dropsy and regarded the fish I had in my pond with dropsy as gonners. Just that from what I read, aeromonos bug attacks the kidneys and this leads to dropsy so therefore did the PP to control the aeromonos, I understand now that aeromonos is in everything and I will not get rid of it...just that I must get rid of the bad aeromonos.


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Chris Maritz

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 10:11 am

Just my opinion but 0.7% salt is rather high.....
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 10:16 am

Hi Chris,

I feel the same way.....That is why I'm doing more than regular waterchanges, I said 2 a week, but alone did 2 this weekend and have since brought it down to 0.57% now this morning.

Will more than likely do a 10% waterchange every night for the rest of the week untill I get it down to the .30% range.

Just with the PP treatments and my filters been re-seeded on friday I assume the salt is also assisting with the ammonia in the water.

Fish dont gasp for air and are feeding and waiting for food as per normal so do not think the salt level is stressing them out at all.

But that said, Within the next week I should have it down to normal.....what is the best to keep it at?.......0.25%??
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 10:28 am

I think, and once again just my opinion, that your salt should only ever be 0.3% or higher if you encountered a problem. If you have experienced problems and sorted it out without any further problems arrising within a month or so I would gradually start getting rid of the salt content all together by doing regular water changes like you're doing at the moment.

It's known that if you keep a constant salt presence in your pond some nasties can build up immunity against salt and then you'll have to end up having to revert to other more drastic treatments. Salt should, in my opinion only be used as medicine or when needed ie. new ponds or when adding new fish to an existing pond.
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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 12:07 pm

Hi Chris

cheers cheers cheers
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Cliff

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PostSubject: Re: What is this   What is this Icon_minitimeMon Oct 11, 2010 12:13 pm

Hi Chris, sound advice which is appreciated. I have a new pond and now that the water has started warming up am I only now looking at working the salt out of my system. If I had an established pond which did not need salt I can assure you I would not have salt in it.

Thanks again
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