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 Growth on Koi Nose

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Colyn

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PostSubject: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 11:22 am

Can somebody guess what this can be and how should it be treated please.

Growth on Koi Nose 20100817_MG_1699

Thanks.
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 11:27 am

Hi Colyn,

Dit lyk vir my soos Carpox en dit behoort vanself weg te gaan sodra die water warmer word.

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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 11:56 am

Colyn,

It looks to me like "Dermocystidium koi", and it is a fungal desease with a peculiar appearance.
Unlike other fungi, it does not induce cotton wool-like growths, but it causes smooth raised swellings with a reddish sheen to appear on the skin of Koi.

These swellings grow up to a few centimeters in size. Dermocystidium koi primarily occurs in spring at the water tempratures between 12*C and 20*C.
Upon microscopic inspection of the swellings, segmented hyphae become visible. These hyphae contain hunderds of spores that are released when the swelling finally ruptures into the enviroment.

Koi affected by this "fungus" usually remain in good health.
The skin around the swelling can show inflammatory reactions, but these usually disappear after the swelling ruptures.
There is no effective treatment for Dermocystidium koi. Swellings can be excised surgically, with the aid of fluid nitrogen ( lighter gas) if neccessary

Also see :

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=768
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 12:00 pm

Dit lyk na 'n ontsteekte carp pox, as dit jou pla kan jy dit afsny met 'n messie en die area behandel maar carp pox is 'n virus die vis sal nooit ontslae wees daarvan nie dit sal net iewers anders uit pop. Die virus word onderdruk in die somer deur die vis se imunestelsel en wys dan weer sy kop in die winter wanneer die vis se imunestelsel af is.
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Colyn

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 12:05 pm

Dankie manne.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 12:13 pm

Wayne,

Die wat op die Koi se neus is, is nie Carp Pox (CYPRINID HERPES VIRUS 1 (CHV-1))
nie! Carp Pox het 'n "was-agtige" voorkoms al is dit soms ook rooi.
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 4:18 pm

Ek het 'n Kohaku met dieselfde probleem, kom en gaan.
Glo ook nie dis pokke nie.
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 5:13 pm

Hi Colyn,

What you have is exactly the same as I had a few years back on a doitsu sanke.

May I suggest you join the koi society and buy the new Health Guide. It has the following information in it.

Regards,
Chris

LYMPHOCYSTIS
Lymphocystis is a viral disease very common in goldfish and not so common in koi, although it appears to be getting more common in koi.
It is difficult to eradicate without destroying the collection. Most hobbyists will remove and destroy infected fish or at least isolate the infected fish.
Lymphocystis will cause a large single cell tumour. The infection may cause one tumour on a koi or several smaller ones.
Look for a small cauliflower looking growth. This usually gets larger. In the early stages it is the same colour as the fish's skin, but with time turns red or purple.

You can see the problem closer to the head.

Growth on Koi Nose DoitsuSanke02

Here is another fish with the same thing.
Growth on Koi Nose Lymphocystis-01

Treating the koi

removing the growth
Growth on Koi Nose DoitsuSanke04

Growth removed
Growth on Koi Nose DoitsuSanke05-Copy

sterilizing the wound with hydrogen peroxide - NOTE: the eye had grown closed with this disease. BUT it completely cleared by its self two years later.
Growth on Koi Nose DoitsuSanke06-Copy

closing the wound with bentonite powder
Growth on Koi Nose DoitsuSanke07-Copy
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 6:08 pm

Hi Chris,

If that on the nose of this Koi is Lymphocytes.................I will buy you lunch!!!

Lymphocytes (nodule disease) are a chronic viral disease in which wart-like nodules appear on skin and gills.
The virus particles are about 200 nanometers in length, and the infection spreads orally or via small skin lesions.
The disease is generally benign, and often disappears spontaneously without leaving scars.
There is no effective treatment for Lymphocytes, and affected fish should be removed from the pond in order to avoid further infections.
The wart-like nodules can be removed surgically, but they may re-appear after some time.
The disease can be identified under a microscope.

Maybe Colyn could surgically remove the growth and send it to a Veterinarian for Identification?

This could be very interesting!
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 6:13 pm

Shjo chris, eina. That looks eina.

It looks very simular to what Johan Jacobs had on his one koi 2 years ago. He wrote:

Quote :
After puncturing the bubbles and applying Woundmed, it was a week and no further signs of the blisters

Growth on Koi Nose 19110d1205489190-help-disease-dvc04320
Heres a link to the forum. http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-forum/8329-help-disease-2.html

Does the new health manual have photos in it and is it in colour?
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 9:08 pm

Colyn,

I cannot say with 100% accuracy if it is Lymphocystis or not, although I tend to agree with Chris Neaves. It looks like Lymphocystis to me. One needs to touch the lession to be certain!

Regardless, I have been experimenting with treatment of Lymphocystis growths now for more than two years and the results are very encouraging. You can have a look here:

http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17:kohaku-with-severe-lymphocystis&catid=4:case-studies&Itemid=19

I will go and have a look at a specific fish mentioned in the article that was treated some time ago and then complete the article mentioned above. Please note I have also tried the same treatment on Carp Pox without success.

The only reason why I cannot yet claim that the treatment is absolutely effective is because of the tendency of the growths to disappear spontaneously when the water heats up. I need a few more cycles of winter/summer before I can say for sure.

Hope it helps!

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 10:05 pm

Hi,

Yes, Pieter I agree with you. I looked at the link on your experiments and it was very helpful. Thanks.

The sanke in the pictures I posted simply grew the lump back after a year or two. However the growth on the eye cleared by it's self. Perhaps there was an immune response after the removal by thumb nail of the main growth. The fish was already some 13 years old when the growth appeared.

Colyn, they have run some successful tests in the USA using Acriflavine baths of 10 ppm for 4 hours several days apart until the lesion started to resolve.

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 10:32 pm

Chris,

At the risk of being repetitive, here is a quote from another article on my my web-site, supporting what you said.


I believe other forum members may find it helpful:


"Acriflavine is a yellow-orange powder that has been used for Koi heath treatments for many years. Until recently, Acriflavine has been viewed as not very effective and even described by some as a useless dye. It is however my opinion that more experimentation with Acriflavine is necessary to unlock the full potential that it has for the Koi industry.

What is currently common knowledge about Acriflavine is that it is an effective treatment against bacterial disease such as Flexibacter columnaris. It is also effective against some external parasitic infections such as Chilodonella, Hexamita, Ich and Oodinium. As a fungicide it is effective against Saprolegnia. Some claim it is the only effective treatment against dropsy, but I have never been able to cure a case of dropsy, even with the aid of injections.

Acriflavine is a very forgiving chemical that can be overdosed to some extent without apparent harm to fish, although there have been reports that it may sterilize fish. There have been some reports that Acriflavine may damage the slime coating or the mucus producing cells of fish, but at this stage there is inadequate evidence to support such a claim. The effect on the beneficial bacteria is not clear although one can expect it to “knock” the filter back for a short while. What makes the use of Acriflavine very attractive is that it can be safely employed in conjunction with salt, organophosphate, Methylene Blue, Malachite Green and antibiotics. It is common practice to use a salt and Acriflavine combination in quarantine facilities.

The mode of action is that Acriflavine bind with nucleic acids of the disease causing organisms. The pond-doctor also supports the use of Acriflavine when he states the following mode of action on viruses: It is absorbed through cell membranes where it reacts with DNA inside the cells. This disrupts the pathogen's ability to reproduce causing an accelerated death and preventing the spread of the infestation. It is still not clear why Acriflavine has this effect on DNA within cells.

I have also read Dr Eric Johnson’s book, “Koi Health and Disease” some time ago. He has tested Acriflavine on five groups of fish twice for the effect that it may have on Lymphocystis. Lymphocystis is a viral disease causing warty, rough areas on fish. It is not life threatening but very disfiguring. (See more information here). I have also done some experimenting and would recommend Acriflavine dips or topical treatment if you would like to have a shot at curing Lymphocystis lesions."

If more members can try this and report back, we may have clear results sooner!
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeTue Aug 17, 2010 10:38 pm

Pieter,

After reading your article it is not clear if you ever identified the “growth” to be Lymphocystis.

The one difference between Lymphocystis and Dermocystidium koi when viewed under a microscope is that in true Lymphocystis infection no spores are present.

Lymphocystis
Viral (iridovirus) disease of marine fin fish characterized by multiple creamy-white nodules on the skin and fins. Self-cure occurs. The nodules are benign external growths composed of hypertrophied dermal fibroblasts.
(Saunders Comprehensive Veterinary Dictionary)

Also see:
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Lawler_Lymphocystis.html
http://www.fishdoc.net/disease/dermocystidium.htm
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 12:23 am

Pieter,

The lesions that I have treated and currently experimenting on now for considerable time, is/ was Lymphocystus. Even under a magnifying glass the megaloblastic cells are evident. Spores are relatively large at 400X and there were none that I could identify under a microscope.


More info:

http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=99:acriflavine&catid=19:medication&Itemid=59

Unfortunately one must register to read these articles



Anyway, like I have said, I cannot be 100% sure Colyn’s post is Lymphocystis. One needs to feel it and if possible dissect it. I maintain that if it is Lymphocystus, Acriflavine may be the solution although I still need a few seasons to monitor if the growths reappear. My full report will only be completed in Spring 2012, but at this stage it is encouraging
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 6:53 am

Hi,

It is so interesting to jump to a conclusion and diagnose something on a forum. None of us have the resources such as electron microscopes to be certain. So hasty recommendations and wild guesses are made - but we can never be certain - even if lunch is involved! study If it is Lymphocystus then Acriflavine will be effective.

But there is another side to this story - Colyn - there always seem to be stories around your koi Very Happy It appears that some of the leading writers of information and books on koi diseases has been misleading us for years - koi (carp) do not get Lymphocystus. So thats a predicament for the arm-chair doctors.

But there is hope - as the picture of Colyn's koi with a sinus problem went around the world - and surprise, surprise -

This stuff looks like hikkui.

Hikkui is thought to be caused by a virus (probably a herpesvirus). Dr. Nick Saint-Erne - Aqua Vet and author of the book - Advanced Koi Care took some hikkui-lesion tissue samples and sent them to the Univ. of Georgia (Brand Ritchie) where they did some histopathology on the samples and found what appeared to be herpesvirus inclusions using electron microscopy.

In the past, most effective or partially effective treatments employed removal of the infected tissue and disinfecting of the area - essentially the same way one would treat a wart.

We will have to amend our books and (gulp) even our memories - those of us who use them - and buy electron microscopes.

Chris

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Colyn

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 7:16 am

Now for the Jackpot question ... do I leave the fish alone or do I remove it from the pond ?
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 9:10 am

Colyn,

I would leave it in the pond, if it is Lymphocystis then remove it from the pond.

It is your call. scratch

This “arm-chair” doctor bet an R 1000 that the growth on your fish is not Lymphocystis! Laughing Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 9:16 am

We are all trying to assist Colyn with his problem. I will still need some convincing about the non-existence of Lymphocystis. Let us say that whatever I have been experimenting on is at this stage sensitive to Acriflavine, and it resembles the lesion on Colyn’s fish to a degree. The lesions are rubbery and tough to remove, while Hi-kui can be removed with a blunt object or course towel. You will have to inspect the lesion and make a call yourself, Colyn.

Whatever it is (Lymphocystis or Dermocystidium) unless the growth burst open or starts bleeding it is not highly infectious.

Note:
I had a PM from someone with the idea that the lesion is poverty related and we need to feed our koi beetroot confused lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 3:31 pm

Hi Colyn,

Just got another opinion and they also say its probably hikkui - as a matter of fact this opinion says he is very confident it is hikkui.

Always keep in mind that analysing a koi problem via the internet is almost impossible to be 100% certain. You need scientific lab analysis and that costs money.

So to answer your jackpot question - which has raised the stakes upwards from a lunch and R1,000 - it could be one or the other. In both cases leave the koi in the pond - unless you want to get rid of the fish. In both cases catch the fish and remove the growth. In both cases sterilize the wound afterwards. And keep on sterilizing the wound every few days to prevent secondary bacterial or fungal infections.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. in the case of my Doitsu Sanke - it had the terrible growth on it for years in my pond. It did die two years ago but it was about 16 years old. There is another koi that is about 20 years old in my pond that now has something similar now but not quite as bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 3:36 pm

Thought Hikui only attacks the red pigment.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 3:55 pm

Wayne,

I think you are correct!

Quote :
If a koi hobbyist keeps go-sanke long enough it only a matter of time before he/she comes across the skin disease called Hikui.

Hikui is a skin ailment that affects the Hi or red colour on a koi and only the Hi.

Typically if caught early it displays an orange/yellow colour blemish on the skin, if left it will eat right through the Hi till its gone and white is exposed, as is the case in the example contained here in.

Duncan Griffiths

Keep on speculating it’s really entertaining!
Fillet steak or T-bone steak...............both are called steaks but in one you pay for the bone too!

lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeWed Aug 18, 2010 5:10 pm

Just me rambling....

i guess yellow is a caretnoid pigment cell....which can also produces hi depeding on the intensity of the pigment. So although i have never thought about it like that yellow and hi colours come from the same pigment cells. So if hikui attacks the hi pigement cell normally it must be able to attack yellow. Shocked But i have never seen hikui or heard of hikui on yellow before.

Had to dive into Koi, a handbook for keeping Nishikikoi by Servaas to get the name of those carot cells. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeThu Aug 19, 2010 7:00 am

Hi,

Interesting - It was Duncan who emailed me back with a second opinion and said he was certain that lump was hikui.

Pieter you have said what it is not (thats the easy part) - but I can't find in this thread what you actually think it is?

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Growth on Koi Nose   Growth on Koi Nose Icon_minitimeThu Aug 19, 2010 9:03 am

Hi Chris,

Is the question for me or Pieter Odendaal?
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