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angryant

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PostSubject: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 10:14 pm

Hi all been doing some surfing and wanted to know if anyone knows were to get refresh powder in CPT and what is it exactly.

Hope you can help later all
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 10:42 pm

Hey Shawn, bring some with Laughing

Not available in SA we only get the Bao Bio Montmorillonite clay. As we speak I have just returned form pond after adding 1kg of clay, when I saw your post.

Come bring some Refresh with. Sad Sad Sad
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 10:53 pm

Bobby at the point in time I'm in a dive chamber at 40m just done 8 hours hard work cleaning concrete off a damaged oil line in the south china sea off Vietnam. How the hell am I going to get refresh now had a look last time I was on the beach here in Vietnam not to many koi lovers out here and no koi shop to speak of. If I fly home via Singapore I'll see if I can get some there if my stop over is long enough. Dam wish we could get some in SA were do you get that clay that you use.
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:06 pm

Ok I have bentanite clay at home so was not sure what montmorillonite clay was but found this on the net it's the same thing

One of the confusing aspects of commercially available montmorillonite clays is the use of two names for exactly the same mineral. Montmorillonite clays are bentonite clays and bentonite clays are montmorillonite clays. They are not two separate minerals as we think. They are one and the same thing. All types of bentonite clays are grouped together under the Montmorillonite or Smectite group of clays. To speak of one is to speak of the other.

Learn something everyday now we just need to find refresh powder and we a for away
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:15 pm

Shawn why do get yourself locked in a dive chamber, much easier to dive in my pond, no such drama only a bit op PP. Very Happy

You get it from the dealers, or I can ask Larry to bring some down from JNB, there is also another make available in the Cape, not sure about the name.

I have read that the refresh is very special, available in the UK and USA

Copy

What is Refresh®

Refresh® is a mineral composed of montmorillonite in its core and 16 necessary minerals such as assilica acid, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, sodium, ferrous, etc., around the core. These effective minerals keep the water clean and help to supply nutrition, dissolving slowly into the water through an ion exchange system. These natural workings are necessary elements to keeping koi healthy and improving the vividness of their coloring.

Refresh® is pure natural montmorillonite, and it belongs to a useful group of minerals. If it is mixed with other natural or artificial minerals, its original mineral balance would be broken. Koi being bred in soil bottom ponds containing this product have glossy coloring. Their glossy coloring fades when they are moved into concrete made ponds. Some studies of soil bottom ponds show that they are usually made with clay. When the quality of the clay is better, the koi become healthier and have better coloring.
Benefits:

* Improves the quality of water.
* Supplies nutrition for essential growth.
* Improves health and coloring.
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:20 pm

Should you find some, hide it, don't tell Drikus Evil or Very Mad
He does not want to share his doepa with us. Mad
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Drikus van Dijk

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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:22 pm


Hey,,, ek hou julle dop, manne.

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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:34 pm

Ok now im lost and think I'm getting into trouble and don't even know why and what is a doepa ??? But if I get some I'll share. Just can't balive if this stuff is so good why has no one brought it in surly there is some money to be made.
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:40 pm

Hi Shawn,

I am sure there are people that use these "stash", but they keep it secret Exclamation bounce affraid cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:41 pm

Speaking like a true businessman always looking for opportunities. Hey when your are in the UK bring me a Nexus 400 complete conversion Exclamation Exclamation


"Doepa" that is the secret stuff the man is feeding his Koi in preparation for the show. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:47 pm

It's amazing to think that you are talking to us from a depth of 40m below the water, in a chamber somewhere across the world. You must make sure they do not open the wrong hatch and flood your laptop. Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeFri Jul 23, 2010 11:54 pm

Well is this doepa foe sale to a person like me that is no threat at a show with my biggest koi only been 50 cm please please.

And I'm not on a laptop got my I pod touch in here doing all my surfing and emails

Later off to bed now
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSat Jul 24, 2010 8:25 am

bobby what about pond bio vital they sell it in 2 kg plastic containers at santon auqtics
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSat Jul 24, 2010 8:43 am

Hi Shawn

Just for a matter of interest, do you guys have a wireless connection or cable for internet to the outside world while you 40m below the rest of the world?
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSat Jul 24, 2010 10:10 am

vossie wrote:
bobby what about pond bio vital they sell it in 2 kg plastic containers at santon auqtics

Vossie, I have paid my school fees, I prefer to stay with the known, so many products on the market with so many claims made, and if one consider the Koi monetary investment, I tend to be more careful with new or unknown products.

I am not saying this is applicable to the product you have just mentioned, the industry is selling products without a clue of the contents and ultimate effect on Koi.

Over the years I have seen many posts re refresh made by serious koi keepers on different forums all over the world, therfore my interest in this product.
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSat Jul 24, 2010 10:27 am

its got monte clay in aswell as 16 diffrent elements needed so i thought it sounds like the same thing you talking about
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSun Nov 28, 2010 5:20 pm

Nothing beats Refresh, the problem it's hard to find and it is very expensive! R600.00+ a 5kg bag R120.00/kg+
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeSun Dec 05, 2010 6:28 pm

Carl from Dream Koi just had a shipment of Refresh managed to get 10kg will try it when my pond is a little clearer, R695.00 per 5kg
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PostSubject: Bao Bio Clay   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeTue Dec 07, 2010 1:10 pm

In other words at R695 or whatever for 5kg imported whilst you can buy 10kg of exactly the same stuff for R245 from Bao Bio???

Very little known facts about Montmorillonite clay - there are two world class sources for it. One in France, the other right here locally. I guess you can buy the imported stuff (probably from here originally) if you like, but that sounds like a waste of time and money to me. In this case, local is lekker!


"Refresh® is a mineral composed of montmorillonite in its core and 16 necessary minerals such as assilica acid, aluminum, calcium, magnesium, sodium, ferrous, etc., around the core. These effective minerals keep the water clean and help to supply nutrition, dissolving slowly into the water through an ion exchange system. These natural workings are necessary elements to keeping koi healthy and improving the vividness of their coloring.

Refresh® is pure natural montmorillonite, and it belongs to a useful group of minerals. If it is mixed with other natural or artificial minerals, its original mineral balance would be broken. Koi being bred in soil bottom ponds containing this product have glossy coloring. Their glossy coloring fades when they are moved into concrete made ponds. Some studies of soil bottom ponds show that they are usually made with clay. When the quality of the clay is better, the koi become healthier and have better coloring."

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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeTue Dec 07, 2010 2:15 pm

HI,

For once I must agree with William!
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeWed Dec 08, 2010 5:50 am

Chris On Koi
Fishy stories, facts and myths as told at the edge of the koi pond by Chris Neaves.

Montmorillonite

The addition of montmorillonite clays to fish ponds have proven benefits. Many koi keepers used these clays with great success. Montmorillonite clays are commercially available under various brand names depending on the country of origin.

Montmorillonite clays, vary in chemical composition and purity, enhance water quality, replenish and augment minerals and remove certain unwanted wastes. The uses and benefits go further than this. Montmorillonite improves the lustre and skin quality of koi as well as heightening the colour. Added to food it is claimed to aid digestion and increase the koi’s ability to assimilate the vitamins and minerals required in their diet.

Some claims are made that organic waste such as DOC will be removed from the pond. The ionic exchange capacity is increased. Some koi keepers use very high dosages to remove suspended algae.

There are several forms of brand names of montmorillonite available on the market. Some products are a pure montmorillonite clay. Others are a less pure form and have to be processed to remove and eliminate impurities they are mined with. Some brands claim to have bacteria additives. Other may have additives to the clay such as extra minerals, above what is naturally found in the clay. Whilst others are a montmorillonite clay / zeolite powder formulation.

It is interesting to note that a 100% montmorillonite will form a gel when mixed with water and not dissolve into the system. So in this case a little “impurity” is actually required.

The montmorillonite minerals are composed of hydrous aluminium silicates in the form of extremely small particles. They take up water between their layers, causing swelling, and change the interlayer spacing according to the mineral variety. In addition to being involved in inorganic exchange reactions, they react with and absorb some organic liquids, such as amines, glycols, glycerols, and other polyhydric alcohols.

Montmorillonite was named after its discovery locality, Montmorillon, France in the 1800's. Bentonite (Montmorillonite) was discovered in Wyoming, in Fort Benton shale - hence the name bentonite.

One of the confusing aspects of commercially available montmorillonite clays is the use of two names for exactly the same mineral. Montmorillonite clays are bentonite clays and bentonite clays are montmorillonite clays. They are not two separate minerals as we think. They are one and the same thing. All types of bentonite clays are grouped together under the Montmorillonite or Smectite group of clays. To speak of one is to speak of the other.

Marketing of various brand names using the different terminology for the same thing, in the same text, is often responsible for the confusion that arises.
The description of montmorillonite is :- one of a number of clay minerals within the Smectite Group. It forms by weathering or hydrothermal alteration of other aluminum-rich minerals, and is particularly common in altered volcanic ashes called bentonites.

The description of bentonite is :- a native, colloidal, hydrated, non-metallic mineral of the Smectite Group that is primarily composed of the mineral montmorillonite.
And further - Montmorillonite is a member of the general mineral group - the clays. It is the main constituent in a volcanic ash called bentonite.

Montmorillonite has the chemical formula (NaCa)0.33(Al,Mg)2Si4O10(OH)2.nH20. It has a relative density (specific gravity) of 2.0 to 2.7, and a hardness of 2. Many trace elements and minerals are contained in this clay such as - Silicon Dioxide, Aluminium Sulphate, Iron Oxide, Iron compound, Sulphur Dioxide, Calcium Oxide, Magnesium Oxide, Titanium Dioxide, Potassium, Sodium, Calcium carbonate, Phosphorous allotrope. It is typically white, grey, or buff in colour but may have tints of yellow, pink, or blue. Montmorillonite has a pearly or dull lustre and is translucent.

In some areas the clay is near the surface. In others, many meters of soil has to be removed to get to the clay vein which may be only a meter or two wide and a meter deep, but runs for many kilometres. Just across the border in Mozambique there is a large deposit of bentonite at the surface. It has the most incredible pale yellow colour and is very pure.

In some parts of the world montmorillonite clays were formed during the Jurassic period many millions of years ago. Others originate from later periods. Just like all minerals in the earth, the quality of the deposit will vary from area to area and country to country. Whilst some are of excellent quality others are not very pure.
Montmorillonite/bentonite clays are mined in various parts of the world. A very large deposit and a 90% pure form is mined in the U.S.A. in Wyoming. Other deposits are found in France, Italy, Cyprus the Philippines, Brazil, England, Japan and the Philippines - and a very high grade is mined in a certain part of South Africa.
Montmorillonite can be found in low grade deposits which will contain about 30% - 40% of its base elements. Whereas a high grade or pure form will contain over 90% montmorillonite in its natural form.

By treating Montmorillonite with soda ash, the meta-bentonite Sodium Bentonite, can absorb water to about 20 times their dry volume and give rise to permanent suspensions of gel like masses. The sub-bentonites, containing calcium become Calcium Bentonite, do not swell to this extent but are still capable of absorbing from their surrounding at a phenomenal rate and contain as many minerals as Sodium bentonite. Calcium bentonites are nonswelling and break down to a finely granular aggregate that is widely used as an absorbent clay. I would recommend that you use a calcium bentoine for the pond for these reasons. The Sodium bentonite also works well but is less easily dissolved into the pond water.

Montmorillonite contains a balance of minerals in their natural colloidal form, making it easily assimilated. The minerals present in montmorillonite enhance the production of enzymes in all living organisms.

The deposits containing only 30% - 40% of its base elements (montmorillonite) are considered a low grade in the mining industry. In order to improve the grading (purity) some products have to be refined or processed. The other 60% - 70% of unwanted material has to be removed. Only after refinement does it achieve a 80 or 90% purity as claimed. Montmorillonite are naturally mineral rich clays, formed many millions of years ago under certain geological conditions - therefore, it appears that some products have a small percentage of minerals added to bring the quality up to an acceptable level.

Montmorillonite absorbs water and fluids readily, swelling to a gel-like mass. This property makes it useful economically. Many industries, including textiles and chemicals, use it as an absorbent to refine out impurities. Montmorillonite is also used in drilling lubricants and as a plasticizer in moulding sands used in foundries.
Because montmorillonite clay is used as a human health food as well as in the fish industry, claims by health experts make interesting reading. An average mineral analysis of Montmorillonite by health experts demonstrate it contains no less than 67 minerals, including vital trace minerals. Recently it has been recognized and utilized by the cosmetic industry and by soil experts, who value it as an exceptionally good agricultural enhancement: crops grow faster, taste better, and are more resistant to disease.

Bentonite/Montmorillonite is used to seal dams, in bonding foundry sands, asbestos, and mineral wool, as drilling muds, in portland cements and concrete, ceramics, emulsions, insecticides, soaps, pharmaceuticals, and paints, in the manufacture of paper, for clarifying water, juices, and liquors, and as a water softener to remove calcium from hard water, removing colour from mineral and vegetable oils, also used as catalyst supports and absorbents in petroleum refining. Bentonite is also used as a binder in the animal feed industry.

If you every decide to buld a plastic lined pond use bentonite as a backing. By mixing bentonite into the soil and making it damp you get a wonderfully smooth, flexable protective backing to the liner when you fit it.

The idea that Montmorillonite clays could be used in the remineralisation of ponds originate in Japan. Natural mud ponds are lined with bentonite to seal them. It was also discovered that feeding small quantities to koi and occasionally bathing then in it or adding regulated dosages to the pond resulted in wonderful and significant effects on their colour and lustre. Montmorillonite can be easily added to your daily ration of food in small quantities. This is an excellent idea as it will replicate the koi feeding continuously off minute mineral rich particles on the floor of mud dams. Use calcium bentoinite for koi food.

Montmorillonite is used directly in the pond water each week in a recommended dosage. Use a calcium bentonite in the pond. Some products disperse more easily than others. Some have to be mixed with water before application whilst others can be sprinkled directly onto the pond surface. The pond will clear in about 6 - 10 hours, depending on the amount of organic material in the pond. Do not be worried in a new pond if the water does not clear in a day or two.

New ponds will take a long time to clear as the montmorillonite is trapped into the organic material in an established pond.

The difference between sodium bentonite and calcium bentonite can easily be seen. Sodium bentonite clumps more strongly and has a very alkaline pH. Therefore it is a good idea to rather use Calcium Bentonite in koi ponds. However it must be said that sodium bentonite works very well if it is used.

Although bentonite is found in many clumping cat litters and koi keepers are often tempted to use them in ponds these are best avoided. Manufactures of clumping cat litters often add chemicals to introduce a fragrance to the cat litters. Some cat litters are sprayed with a plastic compound to reduce the dust associated with the clay. Other cat litter have colorants added for commercial appeal. Unless you are absolutely sure – avoid clay cat litters in koi ponds.

Regards,
Chris Neaves
P.S. Montmorillonite (calcium bentoinite) also makes a wonderful face pack!

PP.SS. Two vets who treat sick koi professionally recomend you give the pond a good dose of clay a day after you have finished medicating. Apparently this binds and clears a lot of the residue medication and gives the koi a bit of a boost.
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeWed Dec 08, 2010 3:15 pm

same thing new name
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PostSubject: Re: Refresh Powder. ?????????   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeWed Dec 08, 2010 11:30 pm

Posts removed due to personal attacks, member banned.

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PostSubject: Thanks Chris/Pieter   Refresh Powder. ????????? Icon_minitimeThu Dec 09, 2010 2:21 pm

Pieter, you must be getting soft boet! Not to mention senile! We actually agree on a lot more than we disagree - sand filters aside! :-)

Chris: Couldn't have put it better myself. I have all this filed away somewhere in the depths of my laptop - when I started this Koi thing decades ago I remember researching it in some detail at the time. From my hazy recollections I might have gotten some of it from you! What you said above is pretty much exactly what I remember about our local stuff - it really is lekker. And cheap.

Refresh is as old as the hills, it's nothing new but in my opinion, as stated, Bao Bio's product is superior. We have always had superb results with it - and in fact I'll pass on one of our Happy Koi Secret Top Tips. Want to improve the skin on your Koi? Add the stuff every day (mix it into a slurry first) and keep your pond permanently cloudy. Wait a month or two and then brace yerself Shelia! Remember, you heard it first here. You will be blown away. I guess it's kind of like creating your own mini mud pond, just with much higher quality clay. I just love the stuff and we dose it at least weekly in the shop ponds.

All I can add about the clay is that after a medication - definitely add it - it is a good boost for the bacteria in the filter system. It contains valuable trace elements that these bugs need to build cell walls and internal cell structures. It's also one of the reasons why if your filter media starts to lose it's nice healthy brown slime if you add clay a week later the biofilm is back and beautiful.

Sorry to hear about personal attacks? Bannings! Criminy it's getting like the Media Tribunal in here.

People should take a chill pill - it's only Koi for pity's sake! There are more important things in life. Really, there are. It's also sadly one of the reasons I hate posting on forums. Everyone interprets everything the way they want to - I prefer e-mail or phone calls or, shock, horror, gasp: face to face communication. It's a whole lot better. How you keep it up is beyond me - clearly I am not as laid back as you Chris!

:-)

W

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