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 My Showa's fin

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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 5:29 pm

Hi Cliff
That was the frightening stat > 2000W. Shocked...and that is for the smaller of the two heaters from Ultrazap. The other was 3000W.
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 7:01 pm

Hi gents,
You definitely don't F..k around water with a heath robinson heater element setup, If you happen to electrocute someone or hopefully yourself because you did not want to spend a few rands, my word, then don't keep koi.

The price of a heater certainly warrants the cost,s thereof it is a well designed and specialized item, thermostatically controlled and all, it is also not like you are going to have it on all year round.

Stop being stingy Jack just go and buy the damn thing man. It is only a fraction of the price of a decent fish.





Last edited by Neville on Mon Jun 28, 2010 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 7:14 pm

Jack,
Quote :
I've had the Showa at the Vet, but didn't have much time to discuss issues with her. The fins seem less inflamed, and the swelling of the muscle at the base of the pectoril fin has subsided a little. She wasn't quite happy with the effect of the Nuflor antibiotic thusfar, so changed to .6ml Taziject
Have to go back on Thursday morning.

I am quite certain that Vet is guessing!

Taziject is made from Ceftazidime.
Used for Mild to moderate infections, Meningitis and Nosocomial infections

Quote :
Ceftazidime ( is a third-generation cephalosporin antibiotic. Like other third-generation cephalosporins, it has broad spectrum activity against Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria. Unlike most third-generation agents, it is active against Pseudomonas aeruginosa, however it has weaker activity against Gram-positive microorganisms and is not used for such infections. Ceftazidime pentahydrate is marketed under various trade names including Cefzim (Pharco B International), Fortum (GSK), and Fortaz. It is also sometimes referred to as the "Tasmanian Devil," due to its fairly powerful anti-pseudomonal activity.

Ceftazidime is usually reserved for the treatment of infections caused by Pseudomonas aeruginosa. It is also used in the empirical therapy of febrile neutropenia, in combination with other antibiotics. It is usually given IV or IM every 812 hours (2 - 3 times a day), with dosage varying by the indication, infection severity, and/or renal function of the recipient.
Ceftazidine is first line treatment for the rare tropical infection, melioidosis



As I told you on the phone last week, I still think that the fish will not make it, lets hope I am wrong.
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 10:09 pm

Hi Pieter & Co
I'm also starting to feel that this is becoming a bit of a lottery, but I hold out hope that the fish will recover. It is still very lively and as I said previously the swelling, as well as the inflammation, has decreased although still evident.
Neville, I'm not 'stingy' when it comes to doing what is best for my koi. I will get the heater for the QT pond. My only query was regarding the flowrate specs of the heater and the flowrate of my filtration system. It doesn't improve my situation if I spend R960 on a heater that cannot work in my pond, or alternatively melts within days of installation.
According to Ultrazap (they also responded to my email) the flowing "water must fully cover the element at all times". With the slower flowrate I need to turn the thermostat right down.
Thanks for the advice. Appreciated.
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 10:18 pm

Hi Neville
The treatment with 3 visits the Vet has cost me just over R700 to date. That is for 3 antibiotic injections (and the antibiotics account for R24 of the bill) plus consultation fees. No lab analyses etc.
Regards
Jack
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 10:56 pm

These pictures bring back some bad memories. Forget about healing that wound in this season....it wont happen. You can see the bacteria infection spreading down the side of the body.

Forget about anti-biotics and injections, concentrate on keeping the bacteria count down in the water. You have to try and get it into and past spring.

I would clean the area with Peroxide and then seal with Frairs balsam and then leave it and dont bother it again. Place it in QT it in 0.06% salt and Virkon S and do 10% water changes from them on weekly and adjust the salt and virkon S accordingly but thats just me. That is what christie used to pull some of my koi through that had ulcer disease during winter last year.

If you can get the water to 18'C it would help but you have a long time ahead. At least 4 months before you are into recovery season.
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeMon Jun 28, 2010 11:25 pm

Hi Jack,

I think the visits to the vet is rather cheap, I am sure that from a private vet or koi consultant you would have paid a lot more.

I am not sure how and where you will, id you do, install a heater but it would be easy to have it full of water all the time by just adding a up flow bend on the outlet line.
As for turning the thermostat down, you will then be turning it back up slowly in steps till you reach your desired temp.

Very anxious to see you save that koi my friend. and I am sure it is possible, a bit concerned with all the transport and handling it is going to have an effect.






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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeTue Jun 29, 2010 11:46 pm

Fitted a 2000W heater this afternoon. Today the temp in my main pond (no heater) was 15 degrees, while the QT pond was about 10 degrees. At 11pm tonight the temp in the QT pond was at 12,5 degrees, and the main pond at 14,5. I will monitor the increase to keep it gradual until a suitable temperature is reached.
Two questions:
What is the optimal temp to maximise the efficacy of antibiotic treatment?
At what rate should one increase the temperature on a daily basis...gradual meaning X degrees per day?
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 30, 2010 8:01 am

Had a cover over QT pond last night. Temperature this morning: 17,5 degrees.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeWed Jun 30, 2010 9:24 am

Jack,

Between 18*C - 24*C, try to keep it at 20*C.
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 02, 2010 10:29 am

Thanks Pieter. Temperature seems to have stabilised at 17,5, so now I will manipulate it to the 20 degree mark. I cover 80% of the pond at night to prevent the heat from escaping with the cooler night air.
Had the Showa at the vet again yesterday, and another antibiotic injection (Traziject). A measure of improvement was visible from Monday's visit, so I'm holding thumbs that it will still get better. Need to reassess after the weekend, and if there is more improvement then I needn't return with the koi.
Collin and LeeAnn came to visit on Tuesday, and Collin's opinion is that the fish is far from 'dead'.
So, hou duim vas Dokter!
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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 04, 2010 2:42 pm

Hi Jack,

How is the heater performing, are you up to the 20's yet.

And of course can you see improvement on the fish since you introduced temprature.
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 04, 2010 4:38 pm

Hi Neville
Pond has been at 20 degrees since Saturday afternoon, and retained the temp overnight. Did a water change yesterday by vacuuming the bottom. Will bowl the fish tomorrow to check it out.
The koi has had 4 antibiotic injections (about 3 - 4 days apart). How long should one continue with antibiotics? As Wayne said in his response that the transporting to the vet, every time treatment is required, must be stressful for the fish. If more of the treatment is required then I should perhaps do the antibiotic injections at home. I've watched the vet, and Admin has a very 'neat' explanation in the Health / Medication section on the Forum.
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 04, 2010 7:14 pm

Holding thumbs for you Jack.

It will come right, just keep going at it.

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Neville

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Jul 04, 2010 8:00 pm

Hi Jack

In my opinion, if the fish show's improvement hold on a bit and monitor it. If it worsens then go again, otherwise wait.
In the increased temp I think you can win.

Sounds good so far.


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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Jul 09, 2010 8:01 am

Hi
Checked my Showa again yesterday, and it's not looking good. So maybe another trip to the vet.
I followed another related thread on Koiphen - great reading, and detailed info - on how a keeper saved a Kohaku with severe ulcer, over an extended period of time. Very similar to Bobby's "Miracle Kindai Showa". They started with antibiotic injections, but avoided Amakacin, and would only use it as a 'last resort', if needed.
....and that is what Wayne B recommended earlier in this thread. Eventually they cut out antibiotic treatment and concentrated on the water, and reducing the pathogens in the water:
Treated water every 2nd day with Elbagin, kept the temperature at 24,5 and the salt at .06%.
Remarkable read...and results.
I cannot find anything about Elbagin in South Africa on "Google". In the thread they referred to it as the "Japanese miracle cure". Is there an equivalent product available locally?
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 17, 2010 8:05 pm

Hallo Jack

Any news on the sick Koi?
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 17, 2010 11:10 pm

Hi Marius
Had it at the vet again last Thursday. Second Amikacin injection, but I'm not seeing the improvement I hoped for. Will assess again on Monday morning. So we'll have to wait and see. Will post photos again when I've bowled her.
Very frustrating!
Regards
Jack
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Jul 17, 2010 11:41 pm

I know how you feel. We all love this hobby and sad to lloose a koi. My R25 Koi died after a few treatments with Baytril.Was worth it but still sad. This is why we have this hobby and I have respect for people to go through all this trouble to try and rescue a fish. Hope it will will make it but at the same time I start to wonder if we reallly know how to rescue a fish. It's almost like people with cancer. Sometimes the treatment is perfect but at times it is hopeless, so do we really know the answer???
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeFri Aug 06, 2010 9:39 pm

Hallo Jack

Can you please give us an update on your sick Koi? Think we can all learn more from your info
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Aug 07, 2010 8:26 am

Hi Marius
I haven't bowled the koi since the last visit to the vet - more than 3 weeks ago. Decided 6 AB injections was enough. Initially I wasn't as positive about the prognosis, and currently I'm focussed on water quality and a clean QT facilty. The temp varies between 20 and 22 degrees, depending on the ambient temperature. I regularly vacuum the bottom as my QT facility is a portapool type pond and has no bottom drain. Water changes every 2nd day.
My observation of the fish is done without bowling it, but the pectoral fins seem to be improving although the one is rather small. The dorsal fin looks a little delapidated, although the rays seem intact. The Showa seems very lively still, and eats as per usual, which I think is a positive.
But I'm still unsure of the infection's full impact, but closer inspection will reveal more details. I will post a pic if I bowl her this weekend, but I don't want to stress her too much.
Thanks for the interest.
Regards
Jack
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PostSubject: Update on Showa   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 29, 2010 1:01 pm

I took some more pics of the Showa today. What is noticeable is that the koi has continued to grow, and is about 6cm longer than when I first took it to the vet a few months ago. It measures 39cm. The inflammation around the base of the pectoril fin has disappeared. I did not anaethetise the Showa to do a thorough inspection but generally some improvement is evident, especially when comparing with some of the previous pics. (My observation only). So perhaps there has been some improvement.
My Showa's fin - Page 2 DSC04511
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My Showa's fin - Page 2 DSC04505
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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSun Aug 29, 2010 7:27 pm

This koi will heal in no time when summer is in full swing.
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PostSubject: Update   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Sep 18, 2010 3:23 am

These photos were taken yesterday. Looking better. Showa still growing. Now measures 44cm.

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PostSubject: Re: My Showa's fin   My Showa's fin - Page 2 Icon_minitimeSat Sep 18, 2010 8:27 am

Hi Jack

This is very nice to see, just goes to show that one can in many cases get them to recover if you persevere.
very well done against the odd's.

I think Winter was your main enemy in the recovery of this fish

Well Done
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