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 Salt - affect on Feeding

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EdHall

EdHall

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PostSubject: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 5:05 pm

Hi everyone

Every 2-3 months I top up the pond with salt. Normally about 2/3kg per 1000l.

So this weekend, off I guy to the kind folk at Loolilocks and purchase 10kg of salt for my 4000l pond. I empty the salt bag in the waterfall section so it flows over into the pond.

This time, the fish looked like they went into a state of shock, they all came to the surface and appeared to gasp. I added the salt on Sunday, today they seemed to have settled a bit, but they won't eat. The goldfish eat like they normally do, but the koi are staying away from the food.

I normally feed at around 5pm every night, and again tonight they have stayed away from the food.

I panicked a bit on Sunday afternoon and did a 10% water change.

Any help or advice would be appreciated
Ed
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 5:52 pm

Hi Ed,

Koi are fresh water fish and do not require salt in the water. Your koi are in grave danger.

Every time you “top up” the pond with salt you are increasing the levels of salt! Salt cannot evaporate like water. So the only time you can reduce the levels of salt you must change water and large amounts of water

If you do a 10% water change you are hardly reducing the amount of salt. Then you top up with a full dose of salt again – that is not topping up – it is increasing the amount of salt.

When you remove 10% of the water you can top up the pond - not so with salt.

So if you do a 10% water change you have reduced the salt by a little then you add 2 – 3kg of salt again and you have basically doubled the salt from the previous occasion. You now have 4 – 6kg of salt per 1000l. Already an unacceptable level with the first "top up." Then a few small water changes reduces the salt A LITTLE and another 2 – 3kg of salt is added.

So each time you are adding salt you are basically doubling the salt levels in your pond. You probably have a very, very high salt level now and your koi are in grave danger of their osmosis balance being upset and they are dehydrating.

You must stop adding salt and you must do daily water changes of around 20%. If necessary add a little sodium sulphate to counter act the chlorine in the water.

I would even go so far as to recommend that you do an immediate 50% water change adding a teaspoon of sodium thiosulphate per 1000l to counter act the chlorine. Stop feeding and give the fish a few days to regain their internal balance.

Chris
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 6:18 pm

I only put salt in the pond if their is a medical reason.
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Jaco

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 6:24 pm

Poor fish !!
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EdHall

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 7:29 pm

Thanks Chris for your comments, feel really bad right now for making a stupid mistake.
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bobby

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 7:36 pm

HI EdHall
I do not believe there is an hobbyist that do not make mistakes, I have certainty made a few and is probably going to do some more in future. I have always said " more is better " bad idea when it comes to medication. lol!
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EdHall

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 7:40 pm

Bobby, thanks for that.

Need to finish the water change.....so have to go!

The wife is wondering why I am such an idiot! Between the laptop and the pond....
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeMon Mar 15, 2010 7:56 pm

Ed - there are no idiots in koi keeping just people with a little more experience AND these people also make mistakes.

This hobby is not a learning curve - it is a vertical bar graph.

No need to appologise - just read my story on the 400 top quality babies imported from Japan that I killed by using acid to try to control the pH. Also an idiotic thing to do.

Then you have well known aqua vet who, a number of years ago, placed the decimal point in the wrong place when treating a pond with Malachite Green .. it was only 10 times more ....

Hope everything comes right.

Don't forget to zap the chlorine when doing big water changes especially at night.

Chris
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Collin

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 7:04 am

Hi Edhall

Don't feel bad that is the way you learn and progress in your koi knowledge.
At least you immediately saw that there was something wrong and had the sens to ask for help.

Well done!
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EdHall

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 8:40 am

Last nights water change has had a good result. I did 20%. The babies ate this morning which is good news and they are swimming normally around the pond, no gasping. I know that maybe I should not have fed but when they came screeching to the edge like they normally do when I feed, I could not help myself by giving half a handful....a quarter of what they normally get.

The bigger koi did not eat this morning, but they are swimming around the pond, nibbling on algae etc on the bottom and sides of the pond. The good thing is that are moving around and not still at the top of the water gasping.

I noticed that my largest koi yesterday was quite pink around the face after the salt and this morning that pinkness has mostly dissapeared.

I want to thank everyone for their advice and support. I feel a bit better now.
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stumble



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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 8:45 am

Thank goodness for that, and well done on your quick action.
You should get a salt meter so you know how much salt you have at all times.
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Adi

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 10:19 am

I know that Loolilocks tests the water as well, if you don't have the equipment, maybe take them some of your water and they can determine salt content and if / how many water changes u would still need.
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 10:53 am

Salt takes a long time to work out of the system...even with big water changes but luckily you just have to reduce it a bit.

If they are still alive and not bokkoms yet then you just need to reduce it a bit and as i recall your pond is not that big so maybe you can even do a 80% water change.

Just a sidenote. If you are going to use anoxic filtration then i dont think you will be able to have salt in the water as that would kill of the plants.
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 4:04 pm

Hi Ed,
20% water change is not nearly enough.

It would have to be 20% per day for at least a week. Actually the bigger the water change the better. Try a 50% water change. And don't forget the Sodium Thiosulphate. The fact that your large koi are not feeding is a salt problem. And its going to take quite along time to rectify its self.

Don't add salt to the water. One day when you need to use salt your dosages will be totally messed up. Don't even waste money on a salt meter.

Salt can help koi under certain circumstances but salt is an irritant and excess mucus will be produced on the body AND the gills. This excess mucus on the gills inhibits the uptake of oxygen.

I like your relaxed picture you posted next to your name ....

Chris
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EdHall

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 5:52 pm

Thanks Chris. Yes, that picture shows how I felt yesterday after realising that I may have salt poisoned my fish!

I did a 20% last night because I did not have any dechlorinating drugs handy. I did not want to move from salt poisoning to chlorine poisoning.

Since this morning I have a seen a marked improvement in the behaviour of the fish. They are more settled, all are now eating. I fed a handful of pellets this evening and they all ate, the larger ones not as enthusiastically as the smaller ones. The smaller koi ate like wild pirannahs!

The larger ones are more active, swimming around rather than gasping and staying still in one spot all the time near the waterfall. The behaviour is almost normal now with them freely swimming around the pond, eating algae from the walls and the floor.

I did another 20% water change earlier this evening. As you suggest, I will also do a 50% tommorrow after once I have gotten some sodium thiosulphate, I also want to have the water tested to see exactly where the salt level is at this point in time.

What is strange is that I have not seen any flashing, or jumping from the koi yet, I would have expected to see that by now.

Thanks again Chris
Ed
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 6:36 pm

Quote :
What is strange is that I have not seen any flashing, or jumping from the koi yet, I would have expected to see that by now.

Salt relaxes koi, so i am not sure if you would see them jumping or flashing. They should actually behave more like a surfer on pot... oooh its cool dude...yeah, no problem dude... peace, sex and love and all those good things. Yeah totally!

I was told that one can actually anesthetize koi with salt.
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David Coetzee

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PostSubject: Re: Salt - affect on Feeding   Salt - affect on Feeding Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 7:54 pm

sssssschoooowow man,

I mean like hey dude, no parasites now either.

afro
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