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 Bubble bead filter

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stumble



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PostSubject: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeSun Feb 07, 2010 7:44 pm

I've been advised to fit a bubble bead filter with blower instead of a sandfilter. it costs almost 3 times the price of the sandfilter, which I don't mind if its worth it. Does anyone know if its worth it?
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeSun Feb 07, 2010 8:02 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeMon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

A bubble bead filter is often just a modified sand filter. A plastic media is used instead of sand or zeolite and the flow is reversed.

Therefore, a bubblebead filter is subject to the same restrictions (except for the sand bed) as a standard sand filter.

So for the price of a single bubble bead filter you could possibly get a pump, two sand filters and a jaccuzzi blower to assist cleaning.

Before you choose either, scout around a little more. Sketch your ideas on paper (costs nothing). Decide which system you will be the most comfortable with.

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeMon Feb 08, 2010 5:23 pm

Hi Chris

Dont you sleep at night. 2:50 in the morning and you are posting articles. Well done.
I just want to give some feedback an my attempt to use a compressor as blower for the sandfilter. Well it should not be done. Firstly there is not enough volume for a long enough period and secondly but mainly, compressors generate air that has a small amounyt of oil in it and I can only believe this will have bad results in the longer run. So get that blower as I will now also do.
Sand filters work well in getting the muck out your pond but then you have to get the muck out of the filter, and that is another story.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeMon Feb 08, 2010 5:41 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I have decided to just go with the bead filter... Cool
it just seems so easy to clean and I've read up on it, and it just seems too much hassle with cleaning the sand and clogging.
As for converting the sandfilter, hmmmm..... don't want to do that, just my luck and it wont work properly.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 8:37 am

Hi,

A bead filter will NOT clean the pond water as good as a Sand filter!

PS: The best way to clean a Sand filter properly, (not taking in account the backwash sessions), is to remove the “sand” from the filter and put it back again and then backwash the filter, once a month.

You can test my theory: by doing this after you “turn the sand” by hand and/or by air blower, be ready for a big surprise!
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wayneb

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 9:41 am

wow, dit klink nou na harde werk. Eks nie so seker of my rug dit gaan hanteer nie.

So haal jy net die sand uit? en dan maak jy dit skoon of wat doen jy?
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 12:44 pm

Wayne,

ja jy haal dit uit, en gooi dit weer terug!

Maak filter toe en backwash.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 1:02 pm

Pieter,

Soos ek verstaan uit vorige posstukke het jy 'n verskeidenheid van die filters. Doen jy enige iets ander behalwe filters skoonmaak?

Dit klink vir my na harde werk.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 2:57 pm

Hi Stumble
You must not confuse a sandfilter with a Bio filter it is 2 different things. It is very true that a sand filter will clean your pond perfectly provided all other parameters are met. and then you have to send that cleaned water through a bio filter for the bacteria to do their job.
My friend and then you have to clean that sand filtter.
And it is here that the s... hits the fan. its hard, dirty work. The blower will certainly help but eventualy you have to do as YOUR EXCELENCE the SF king says, take the sand out and clean it and put it back till next month.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 3:06 pm

My water goes to the settlement chamber first, then huge bio filter. I used to have a sandfilter, with my first pond built about 10 years ago, but can't remember why I replaced the sand with bio media. Razz I think it kept getting blocked.
I want to put the bubble bead between the settlement chamber and large bio filter on my new pond I'm having done. I also want to add a trickle tower somewhere.
I've already ordered the bubble bead filter. I dont think i want the shlep of cleaning the sandfilter. My water was always crystal clear without one. Smile
I don't know what it is about clay, but since I started using it years ago, my water is crystal clear.


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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 3:14 pm

I am going to say something here.

As most of you know i am really anti Sandfilters.

The reason being that they are usually abused, and i think there are better alternatives.

But! If you are going to use a sandfilter then you need to do it the way Pieter does it. He does not abuse it , and you must realise the work that goes in to cleaning it and keeping it in top form. But do all of that and it will really work for you.
We jokingly call him the SF man, but i will give him credit where it is due. He is the SF King, he understands his system and he maintains it correctly, thats why it works.

Whatever system you choose , you must remember that there will always be some amount of work and maintenance neede to keep things ticking over properly, especially in the summer/growing season months.

my 2cents
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 3:46 pm

Hell David,

Thanks for the vote of confidence! Shocked

Nothing can stop me now! The force is with me.............that is the SAKKS force, by the way. tongue Razz geek Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 3:49 pm

Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

I agree it's the SF king way or the highway to achieve clear healthy water when operating a SF

LG lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 4:44 pm

Rolling Eyes

Jinne jy weet.

My opinion. I am allowed to have one you know.

Rolling Eyes

Credit where it is due.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeTue Feb 09, 2010 5:26 pm

Nee wat, laat ek maar my sand filter abuse. Crying or Very sad Ek sal maar aan gaan soos ek nog die heel tyd aangaan en net die sand twee keer per week draai per hand. Eks nou nie so vliks soos die SF king nie. Ek kan glo dat daai manier beter is maar daar is perke hoe ver ek vir my vissies sal gaan.

Dit is flipped harde werk om die sand uit die sand filter tekry en dan weer terug tesit....en om dit maandliks tedoen! affraid (En ek het net een sand filter Razz )

Ek sal dan liewer enigiemand maar aanraai om liewer 'n bubblebead in tesit. Of spandeer die ekstra geld en sit 'n nexus of eazy pod in...jy sal baie meer tyd en geld spaar down the road.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 5:22 am

Another few cents worth -

In all the years of looking at ponds - the ones with the clearest water have always had sand filters on them. The sand filters that have been properly used.

There are a great number of ponds out there - running successfully - with nothing but sand filters. The sand acts as a mechanical filter as well as a surface area for bacteria to grow on.

Koi look great in clear water - now I am talking about truly clear water and not just what the owner thinks is clear water. Go to a koi show and look at the show tanks with fresh water that is not very deep - thats reasonably clear water. How do the koi look - great.

Back in the early 90''s when I brought a number of koi out from Japan for koi keepers (you can see a few of them in the book Living Jewels) I used two sand filters with fine sand not the gravel on a quarantine pond (one of the two ponds I had at the time) on a pond of about 5000 Liters. You had to back wash every second day because the sand filters worked in trapping the solids.

I have never had water as clear as that and you cannot believe how good the koi looked.

Beware of false claims when it comes to filters. Get to understand why things work and how they work. Use what you are comfortable with and above all maintain all filters properly (and thats not just simply oening and closing a valve and walking away).

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 8:24 am

There you have it!

The true words of a Prophet.

I would like to say that if you abuse any filter, sooner then later it will bite you in the @ss! All filters’ needs to be cleaned, the best working filters more often.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 9:25 am

Eveyone will now have to go and get a Secchi disk to test their water clarity.

filter - Bubble bead filter SecchiDisk

How to test water clarity.

This shows it on a smaller scale
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 6:53 pm

Chris wrote:
Another few cents worth -
In all the years of looking at ponds - the ones with the clearest water have always had sand filters on them. The sand filters that have been properly used.
Chris we have to agree to disagree, your key phrase is. “The sand filters that have been properly used” The same criteria is applicable and true of every other system in use.

There are a great number of ponds out there - running successfully - with nothing but sand filters. The sand acts as a mechanical filter as well as a surface area for bacteria to grow on.
I have seen wonderful pond with crystal clear water making use of alternatives to sand-filters and I have witness murky sand-filter ponds and bad looking water on the alternative systems.
Koi look great in clear water - now I am talking about truly clear water and not just what the owner thinks is clear water. Go to a koi show and look at the show tanks with fresh water that is not very deep - thats reasonably clear water. How do the koi look - great.
Have a look at the pond of Ernst van Dyk and the one of Drikus without the use of sand-filters. When I do the time (proper maintenance routine) my first pond running on a vortex with easy and KI will compete with any Sand- Filter system. It is no problem to see a speck of dirt on the floor, I agree mine is only 1.6m deep but the other ponds I mentioned are deeper.

Back in the early 90''s when I brought a number of koi out from Japan for koi keepers (you can see a few of them in the book Living Jewels) I used two sand filters with fine sand not the gravel on a quarantine pond (one of the two ponds I had at the time) on a pond of about 5000 Liters. You had to back wash every second day because the sand filters worked in trapping the solids.
Trapping solids and showing results in 2 days is achievable on many of the modern systems. My vortex system can show trapped solids in one day,so can the Nexus, so can the Easy Pods. When pond is overstocked or a bad algea problem the Easy will get blocked every second day due to trapped solids.
I have never had water as clear as that and you cannot believe how good the koi looked.
I agree and that is what a fanatical Koi keeper will always strive for, as long as he does the time, time to do proper and regular maintenance. In the case of a sand-filter it requires time and a bit of healthy labour, with the more modern systems it requires the time and a bit of valve playing, not a very healthy option though.
Beware of false claims when it comes to filters. Get to understand why things work and how they work. Use what you are comfortable with and above all maintain all filters properly (and thats not just simply oening and closing a valve and walking away). I do not know what false claims you are referring to, but the claim made here is very much disputable. “(and thats not just simply oening and closing a valve and walking away)”. It is as simple as that when your opening statement and key phrase is applied on the alternate filters. Should you find the keeper with the alternative system to Sand filters that puts in the time to do proper maintenance on a regular basis you would also find the clear ponds we all require and would love to have. The real issue is putting in the time on any system is an requirement before we can achieve success with our water. In summary all systems need time invested to be successful but the new technology systems does not require the labour and electricity bill.

Personally I have never disputed the value of a sand-filter and the claims made by keepers, I have gone for the alternative due to ease of use, and the savings on electricity. We all tend to rebel against new technology, I remember myself and a computer a few years back, the question remains to those that are saying that the claims of the new technology is rubbish, how much time have you spend researching the new technology before views are expressed. Well I am running a Nexus on my pond and only time will proof me wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 7:22 pm

If i might just add to this discussion.

In my few years that i have been a koi keeper i have almost never seen a sand filter on a UK, Malaysian or American pond. If it ever was present it was as a polishing unit, last inline after all the mechanical filtration. Thats obviously now from forums, DVDs and books. South Africa is the only place where i have seen a swimming pool filter being used so extensivly as the main mechanical filtration of a koi pond in ponds.

So are we trying to say here that everything else in the whole world is junk compared to the sand filter when it comes to clarity of water? Are we as South African so delusional that we believe that everything else that newer tech must be crap or give sub standard results? Have any of you ever looked at the clarity of water on any of the Koi DVDs? No Sand filters there...but i see vortex units, nexus units, bubble beads, pond sieves and bakki showers and i see them owing kois much more expensive and better quality than the majority of us.

How clear does ones pond need to be? You all have seen Bobbys pond...how much clearer do you want it? Just look through the side window in the pond what more do you need? Will a sand filter make such a big diffirence? or is this whole debate just theoretical?

Idea Mechanical filtration is all about layers...you must have diffirent layers to filter out diffirerent size solids thereby spreading the load.

Idea Its a fact that the more restrictive a filter is the better it cleans. That also means that it needs to cleaned more regularly. a Dirty filter also traps more solids than a clean one...

The pond sieve is a piece of equipment that gives you the ability to mechaniclly remove solids of upto 300 micron from your water and it is self-cleaning...that sounds like a better alternative than the old sand filter to me. Even the multi-cyclone by itself is a better alternative.

If i look into my vortex everyday or so, i see all the poop and other crap that gets collected in it. In 3-4 days its easily 10cm deep, thats why i clean my filters twice a week. Now imagine that all i have is a sand filter and all that poop and crap getting liquidised by the impeller of the pump and going directly into pressurized filter that gets cleaned maybe once a month by a koi keeper not as dedicated as pieter. Shocked

Now imagine that filter standing in the sun. Shocked What do you think is happening inside? You might have very pretty water....but its a timebomb. What would happen with a gravity fed system is that at some stage the mechanical filtration will get so clogged that the pump will not get any water and the koi keeper would atleast notice but that does not happen with the sand filter, oh no, we use pressure, a 1.1kw pump so we can force more and more crap into this pressure filter and the keeper is none the wiser....cause his system is running beautifly and the water is very, very pretty.

I have to agree with bobby, in the end it comes down to the koi keeper and his skills. We are in a time where we have to be ecological minded, we cant go and waste water and energy just because we can financialy afford it. We must try and find better alternatives, and they do exist.

I am a sand filter owner and would advise any new person starting in the hobby to steer away from it. It costs alot of money and its time consuming to maintain for not much gain.

Air lifts is an intresting technology that we as koi keepers might need to look at more in the future if we want to continue to keep koi as a hobby.


Last edited by wayneb on Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 pm; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 10:06 pm

wayneb wrote:
It costs alot of money and its time consuming to maintain for not much gain..

It does not cost alot of money at R 1600.00. It is still one of the most economical ways of filtration.

It is not time consuming. It takes me less than 5 minutes to backwash properly by opening the lid and break the crust everytime.

"not much gain" That is a bold statement and if it was true, you would not have 80% of people in SA who are still using sand filters. I don't care what the people in the UK or US do. (different principles)

"the poop and crap being liquidised by the impeller" This should not be a major concern as the sand filter should be after at least a settlement chamber, filtering the major crap before it reach the sand filter.

Wayne, you have to compare apples with apples.

The Nexus is as far as I am concerned the best filtration available on the market, but the sandfilter is still excellent value for money at 10x less initial capital layout, and very efficient if you operate it the right way.

You suggest that new hobbyists should stay away from sand filters, but how many can afford R 25 000 only for the Nexus filter?

A multi cyclone as stated is not sufficient as a stand alone as suggested, and even the vortexes, bakki showers etc should operate in conjuction with a sand filter.

For a new hobbyist, I still suggest a sandfilter or two with a bakki shower, unless he wants state of the art and can afford a Nexus.

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeWed Feb 10, 2010 10:35 pm

Paul, the setup cost of a sand filter is cheap in comparison to a gravity system may that me vortexes, nexus or what ever.

But you pay for your sins down the road. Having to run a .75kw or 1.1kw pump just for the use of the sand filter instead of a 0.25kw or even a 0.15kw. How much is that not costing the koi keeper down the road? Every month that follows he is paying twice or trice as much as what he would have paid if he a gravity system. He could almost have paid up his gravity system in 24 months with the money saved from pressure.

a Sand filter is very waste full when it comes to cleaning. I own one, i know. With a vortex you simple flush the crap out, thats in my case 1 400L vortex if i want to empty the whole thing, but i can just flush the 30l at the bottom. With a sand filter for example i stir by hand and i back wash with the lid open, it over flows and i stir it again a couple of times....Just when i think the filter is clean - I stir it again and more dirt pops up....in the end 2000-3000l water gone.

Time, i want to see you clean your sand filter throughly in 5mins. Wink If you stir it after cleaning it - is it really clean? With a bead filter or nexus you would switch the air on and then open the valve and be done with it. But with the sand filter your arms are dirty or you are wet somewhere and you have water lying all over the place.

So let me recap, when you own a sand filter like i do; you pay for:
1. The bigger pressure pump.
2. The elevated monthly electricity bill.
3. The water bill from all the wastage.
4. The time you take to clean it.

Quote :
In all the years of looking at ponds - the ones with the clearest water have always had sand filters on them. The

The actual discussion when chris posted was about the clarity of water and not where i am located in the world. If the keepers in the UK can do it while saving energy with other types of filter whether it is a bead or nexus then so can we.

Quote :
That is a bold statement and if it was true, you would not have 80% of people in SA who are still using sand filters. I don't care what the people in the UK or US do. (different principles)

80% of people in this country use the sand filter because dealers sell it to them without explaining the problems down the road because they want the sale. So Mr Customer i can offer you this complete system for R4000 or this system for R14 000? Which will you choose if you know nothing about koi?

Then the 2nd problem is that once you have designed you pond for pressure - you are stuck with it forever unless you do some major reconstruction. So even if you learn that sand filters are bad you cant change it cause chances are your pump is above water level which negates the option for a energy saver pump which means that even if you chuck the sand filter out you dont get a saving. The chances are also that your bottom drain is also only 50mm so you cant change to gravity. So i am willng to bet thats why most people in SA are still running sand filters...It was a mistake done in the design from day 1 either by the owner or by the dealer.

Quote :
"the poop and crap being liquidised by the impeller" This should not be a major concern as the sand filter should be after at least a settlement chamber, filtering the major crap before it reach the sand filter.
But does that happen? Have a look when we are at pond safaris - how many people have a settlement chamber before their sand filter? Here again i unfortuanlty have to blame the dealer that sold the system or the person that did the design for the owner.

I would go as far as to say that the sand filter option should not even be offered to koi keepers.

Look a sand filter works - but its a bad idea to sell it to the majority of koi keepers - cause they wont maintain it properly.
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeThu Feb 11, 2010 9:06 am

Hi Wayne
Thanks for your posting, it is excactly how I feel, about sand filters and mine will be up for sale shortly.
My vortexes 3x cleans my water very well and it comes out crystal clear. in my case I only have to increase the flo a bit as iI am not sirkulating fast enough and then I shoud be fine. It is actually nice to walk up to the vortexes and open the tap and see all the muck go till clear, close it and voila job done. The three take 5 minutes to do and negligable water loss. I dont even want to go through everything I tried with the sand filter. The problem is the dirt is not dust like in a swimming pool, it is sticky and like oily we all know and that sh...t just does not come out. Remember at shows to ceep thar water clear is easy there is no muck the fish were not fed for 2 weeks, you dont even need a sand filter just a trough filled with sand and gravity it back. So I will just put new sand in for the time being. If all this costs are added a Nexus would probably work out to be a lot cheaper sooner.
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Pieter J de Villiers

Pieter J de Villiers

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Location : Krugersdorp, Gauteng,South Africa

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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitimeThu Feb 11, 2010 9:46 am

WoW!

There are a lot of Sand filter experts lately!

If you don’t clean your filter system, the problems will start sooner then later. So to all you bright sparks, when Aeromonas suddenly attack your pond water and your fish starting to get sick, don’t panic, just visit this forum and read what you have written!

The argument that a closed sand filter system is expensive is nonsense! I agree with Paul on this.
4 x 3 bag Sand filters
12 bag os 3-4mm sand
2 x 1.1kW pumps
4 x 50lt Zap ultra Bio filters
15 ball valves
4 x bottom drains
Piping and bends
Glue
+/- R 17 000
(Big enough for a 40 000lt pond)
The best is that this will fit in a space of six sq. meters!

O yes, the hell with the “Rooinekke” and the Yanks, their weather is much different from ours, and on top of all they are lazy bunch!

Ernest and Drikus were mentioned, did, they ever had problems with ulcers? What about Wayne, who stated that he will rather abuse his sand filter before cleaning it properly?

If you don’t want to clean your filters properly, then don’t keep Koi!
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PostSubject: Re: Bubble bead filter   filter - Bubble bead filter Icon_minitime

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