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 Thoughts on this Kohaku

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LJO42



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PostSubject: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:59 pm

Hi guys

Please give me your comments on the fish below,I know its pond fish but i dont want to spend a fotune on my fish till i have some experiance and have learnt the ropes so to speak, then i will start bettering my collection.

please tell what you think is good or bad about it so i can learn what to look for next time out when picking fish.

But here is why i picked it, as the following looked good to me:

Body shape
Kiwa looks good
beni is strong
sashi is not to bad for young fish but could be better.


The pattern is weak but from what ive read it should be the last thing you look at ?

Please let me know if you agree or not with wat i should be looking for in a fish.



P.s even my measuring tool comes form Japan Razz
Thanks
Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:18 pm

Hi Lee

You are probably not going to like it, but I do not think it is a good quality kohaku.

I love Kuchibeni and a good menware and adome, and your fish has got it.

But that is where it ends.

I do not like the bodyshape, the red on the fish is not the same colour all over as it should be, the small spots of hi are a big demerit too me and there is no interesting pattern. This kohaku is too heavy in the front and will end up with a large red pattern at the front and almost none at the back as the hi is already starting to break up there. Look at the hi in the middle on the right hand side towards the dorsal fin. If it breaks up there, it is an indication that the red is going. Yes, the hi appears quite strong in the front, but has saw-tooth kiwa which indicates that even that hi might break up, but hopefully not. If it does break up you might even end up with a Shiro Muji.

The most important aspect of a Kohaku to me is the backgound, being the shiroji. The background of a painting often makes or brakes it, and that goes for koi too. In this case, the background/white/shiroji shows red shining through and is not the sought after snow white, but apppears dull with not good skin quality

I also do not like the red above the eyes. Sometimes it looks cute, but not in this case.

I would also prefer more red on a Kohaku.

However, if you like it, who am I to criticize. This is only my personal opinion, and you have to consider what you paid for it. Maybe it was still value for money despite the demerits, and remember that I am judging from not a very good photo.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:40 pm

Poor pattern and sashi.
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:03 pm

Hi LJ042

Instead of me telling you this is good and that is bad let me rather give you 17 things to look at before buying a koi .

1. Luster. A sick fish will not have luster. Luster can be tought of as the fish shining so healthy it is. a dull koi usually have parasites.

2. Skin. Always ask the dealer to bowl the koi for you in a blue bowl. Blue makes the koi stress. When a koi stresses the red veins can sometimes be seen from under the skin. Koi with a thin skin will show veins, they will be clearly visible and these koi dont do good at koi shows. Dont get confused between the white ground colour and the skin.

3. Fukerin A koi with fukerin (a shiny scale somewhere on the fish) means that - that is the best skin quality that the fish can give you. Its a very good indication.

4. Fins. Are all the fins presents? Are their any deformaties or damage?

5. Gill plates. Are the fish breathing normal or irratic. Does the gill plates cover the gills? irratic or fast breathing can indicate a possible parasite problem.

6. Body conformation. The overall appearance of the body. Is the koi thin, belly heavy? Does it appear to short? Does the tail appear to thin? Is the head in proportion with the body. If you view the koi in a plastic bag from the side. Is the tail straight or does it point up slightly?

7. Bone structure. Does the koi have a hump? or a back bone standing out? Those are all things to look for in koi that will grow big.

8. Scales. Are the scales all the same type? Are the scales think or thin? In Doits koi you have to look for roque scales. Thin scales indicate that the koi has a weak bone structure and that it wont grow very big.

9. Tail tube. The tail tube of a koi is where one can observe the muscle of the koi. If it is think then one can expect the koi to grow big.

10. Whiskers. The more refined a koi, the smaller its whiskers usually and the smaller it grows. The closer the koi is to the real carp the bigger the whiskers. The bigger the whiskers the bigger the koi will grow. Japanses breeders have been crossing gosanke that is refined with magois to gain the grow and size if the original carp.

11. Eyes. Are they present? a Kohaku with a blueish ring around the eye indicates that its infact from a sanke spawning and that means that the kohaku might develop black markings with time. Red Eyes on Ogons indicate that they are not pure Ogon X Ogon spawninigs. Red Eyes are usually saught after but it is and indication that the koi was from a cross breeding.

12. Swimming style Look at the swimming pattern. This can sometimes tell you if there are internal problems or even parasites on the koi. Is the koi swimming in a jerking manner or is it a slow graciouse movement. Is it flashing?

13. Mouth. Is the mouth straight/Deformed? A big mouth is also a indication of the potential size of a koi.

14. Colour. This differs from variety to variety. Basicly you have to take a book like living jewels and go and look at what the colours on young koi should be like.

15. Sashi & Kiwa This could also fall under colour or pattern but its important to check it on gosanke.

16. Pattern. This also differs from variety to variety.

17. Gender. What sex is the koi? Female obviously grows bigger so everyone wants female koi. There are a few places one can check but i suggest you read up about it yourself.

Always :
1) ask the dealer to turn the koi for you upside down so you can see its belly.
2) bag your new koi before buying it and lift it up so you can see it from the side.

Why do i check? Injuries and with shiro utsuri for example small tosai sometimes have very light yellow or orange colour spots underneath that just become more and darker with time.

Most of us always just look at colour and pattern. Look at my avatar. It does not have a balanced pattern but yet its a very good quality koi as it has luster, good skin, body shape and colour. If you look at my knysna shiro utsuri also on this forum you will see it has good colour and skin but very bad body conformation and swimming style. The pattern should really be the last things we look at but i myself also get dazeled by a nice pattern and then i forget all the other things.
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LJO42



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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:19 am

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Admin - Im really just wanting to see how one should go about evaluating a fish and i know this one is a pond fish and doesn't tick all the boxes, so i appreciate the feedback

Could you maybe explain why you say the body shape is poor and maybe what i should be looking out for ?

Jaco - Thanks for the feedback

Wayneb - Thanks for the info going to print it and take it with me next time go looking for fish, understand exactly what you saying be being dazeled by a nice pattern i'm trying to avoid that myself.

Cheers
Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:28 am

Hi Lee, I do not say the body shape is poor, but it could be better.

When judging body shape one should look at the following:

To have good body shape, the widest part should be from behind the gills to the leading ray of the dorsal fin. More or less at the "shoulder" of the koi. I like broad shoulders. In your case, the widest part is a bit towards the front. The body should then taper gently and smoothly towards the tail. The widest part should not be halfway down the fish.

It should have a fairly thick tail tube and yours do not have a thick tail tube.

The whole Koi should be in proportion with no deformities and the fins should be in proportion with the body. Yours are fine.

The koi should have a rounded body, almost like a Cigar, however, males might have a torpedo shape, and therefore males do not do well in shows.

A large mouth is good, and an indication that it will grow large. This can not really be judged from your photos.

The koi should not have a sharp head. On your second photo, the head appers to be a bit too sharp, although on your first photo, it looks fine. That is one of the reasons why I said, it is difficult to judge a koi from photos.

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:42 am

Thanks Paul much appreciated that helps a lot, at least i know what to look for when it comes to body shape.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:27 am

What a champion looks like:
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:29 am

Baie rooi koki pen en tipex gebruik op daai koi.

En snaaks genoeg, die koi is uitstekend en was 'n GC maar die bodyshape staan my nie aan nie. Hy voel efens tedik vir my. Dis nou persoonlike smaak skat ek.

Ek hou meer van die een.



Last edited by wayneb on Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:39 am

also stunning, the above koi is Loulan, 2x grand campion......posted the article under the interesting facts section
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:43 am

If you take a look at the last 40 GC of japan, you will notice something intresting.

The 1st GC was just over 60cm and it was thin. Then the breeders got going... the next GC was fatter (thicker) but roughly the same length...that continues for a few years until the GC almost looks to fat. Then suddenly the next GC is longer but very thin agan.

That just shows you how they are breeding them. I think we are right on the edge before the GC goes over 1meter.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:51 am

wayneb wrote:
If you take a look at the last 40 GC of japan, you will notice something intresting.

The 1st GC was just over 60cm and it was thin. Then the breeders got going... the next GC was fatter (thicker) but roughly the same length...that continues for a few years until the GC almost looks to fat. Then suddenly the next GC is longer but very thin agan.

That just shows you how they are breeding them. I think we are right on the edge before the GC goes over 1meter.

Both are very nice but i don't know FHM models also look great after a bit airbrushing but rather different in person,guess im going to have to get to a few shows this year and see a few in person.

What would be interesting is if they had the timeline of GC from small so you can see how it progress's.

Would the longer and thinner after the fat ones, come from the same bloodline or they the old CG bloodline mixed with another to get the extra length ??

Cheers
Lee
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:06 pm

Hi Lee

Im not a breeder so cant answer the question really but i do know that the japanese breeders take the refined bloodline and then crosses it with magoi which is a normal carp. This cross then gives them the quality from the refined blood line but the strength and size of the magoi. I also have to say that once the breeder does this type of cross he looses a big % of fry as most of the fry will be magoi and not from the refine bloodline so he needs to cull them.

Then from that batch he raises a few of the refined once and see how they develop....4-5 years later he breeds with one of them crossing it back into the refined bloodline that he started with.

Its a loooong process. Thats why the trade of breeding runs in the family of the japanese. Some families have blood lines that took generations to develop.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:41 am

wayneb wrote:

I think we are right on the edge before the GC goes over 1meter.

The 2010 All Japan Koi Show results released today, 99cm

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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:12 pm

Admin wrote:
wayneb wrote:

I think we are right on the edge before the GC goes over 1meter.

The 2010 All Japan Koi Show results released today, 99cm

Almost....we are very, very close. I read somewhere that there is already a 102cm sanke, but i dont think it has GC quality.


Mark Gardener - Landslide victory wrote:
For the first time I've ever known at a Koi show in Japan the Grand Champion prize was decided on the single vote with one Koi taking the majority of votes.

This year, with a total of 45 out of 85 votes in the first ballot, Dainichi Koi Farm was awarded the Grand Champion prize for their 99cm Kohaku.







www.niigata-nishikigoi.com.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:24 pm

Wow Shocked ......Thats more like it, that is very nice fish, also doesn't look like it has been airbrushed like the other 2.

Out of interest do you know how old this fish is, maybe it has a little growth left in it yet Question
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:31 pm

Mark Gardner - The 90bu female Gosanke wrote:


Dainichi Kohaku, owned by Mr Tepsit from Thailand. Runner up at last year's All Japan Show. This Koi has grown 8cm in the last year and is now 99cm! She is 9 years old.

http://www.niigata-nishikigoi.com/node?page=1

I think this koi has about 3 years of showing left...so who nows.

I wonder who in Kwazulu Natal will now buy this one... cyclops I find it so pointless that people buy a World champion or a reserve and then enter it into a local show....whats the points? Its already world champion. geek
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on this Kohaku   Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:40 pm

Interesting so it could tip the magic 1 meter mark in a years time.
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