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 Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri

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wayneb



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PostSubject: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:57 pm

Hi

Can someone please tell me what is going on here. This koi is only 44cm and seems to be stuffed with eggs? Is it eggs or maybe a genetical \ internal problem.

This koi took supreme size 3 in george and now it looks like it swallowed a graza bottle.

Please give me advise.

Thanks

Wayne

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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:35 pm

One of my Kohaku's started swelling like that and the fish was under 20cm ... it has grown now to around 30cm and looks like a wine vat with a fish tail ... initially I also thought it was eggs but now I think it is something else and it is growing. In the past few weeks the fish has lost all it's red and I will net it out next week when we clean the pond and catch the stray goldfish.
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sas



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PostSubject: Re:   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:23 am

Wayneb,

My suggestion is try to feel the stomach of the fish with your hand, if it is very soft than maybe it is just eggs....

But if it feels very hard, than it's internal problem....

Also, u can stop feeding during Winter time of this year. If it is eggs, the fish will absorb it and the body shape should go back to normal again....

regards,
sas
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:31 am

Ive received the koi as a gift, ive had it now for maybe a week or so.

Ive contacted Servaas De Kock and Julie from koicare and both say that i must try and spawn the koi as soon as possible or its not going to life for very much longer.

At only 44cm i find it very odd for a koi to look like this or to even have so many eggs.

So im going to try and spawn her later today, just to try and release the eggs...Im not intrested at the momment to grow any fry on as i dont have a suitable male yet.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:48 am

A koi that is bloated may have one of the following conditions:


1. Collection of excessive tissue fluid.

The 'belly' of a koi can be caused to bulge on account of a collection of tissue fluid around the abdomen area. This can be caused by an internal bacterial infection or the malfunctioning of the kidneys. Behaving like a fluid-filled balloon, the volume and pressure within the koi can cause blood capillaries to become visible in the skin and the eyes to protrude.

This condition can easily be misdiagnosed as koi being spawn-bound, but if scales protrude from the sleek lines of the koi's body then this is a positive identification of a koi suffering from dropsy. This is quite terminal and can pose risks for other koi in the same pond. The affected fish should be isolated and monitored if possible and put to sleep with an overdose of anaesthetic if the symptoms deteriorate.

2) Tumour

A fish suffering from a tumour is not likely to become as apparently 'full' as a dropsied koi and is only likely to affect a localised area of a fish. A tumour is likely to manifest itself as a lump, where the swelling may even appear to one side if the koi is viewed directly from above.

As with dropsy, there is little remedial action that can be carried out, but it is less likely to affect the other fish should it develop further.

3) Obesity

A 'bloated' koi may just be that! In the race to grow koi as quickly as possible, it has been known for koi to be fed excessive quantities of food that is too energy-rich for koi, being deposited around the gut and internal organs as fat.

However, if this is the cause then the majority of koi in a pond are likely to exhibit obese symptoms.

4) Spawn - eggbound


Wayne, if you can feel a lumb, it might be a tumor. If it is eggs, you might be able to see eggs coming out if you gently try to push it out. (hand strip)

I see that the swelling is more towards the one side?, which often indicates that it is rather a tumour.

It can also be a bacterial infection affecting the kidneys as with dropsy, causing excess fluid.

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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:26 am

I hear people use Epsom salt to treat fluid buildup problems within goldfish? Is this true, or just a gimmick and not widely used?
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:42 pm

And so it begins...

http://www.KoiAdventures.co.za/UserFiles/Image/ForumPosts/Breeding/ShiroUtsuriAndKomanryu.avi


No eggs yet
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:00 pm

Wayne, gooi skadunet in sodat hy haar lekker kan vasdruk.

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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:19 pm

For those that cant see the video on the image above try this one.

http://www.koiadventures.co.za/UserFiles/Image/ForumPosts/Breeding/ShiroUtsuriAndKomanryu.wmv

or

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=262380267697
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:48 pm

This is my experience- I never did an autopsy, but I believe the swelling could have been the result of a tumour.

http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56197

(Dont look at the filtration bit- it has since changed)

What was quite obvious when one observed the swelling, was the asymmetrical shape of the abdomen.

Good luck
Albie
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PostSubject: Utsuri   Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:18 pm

Mm what a nice fish, it would be a shame to loose it.

I certainly would not discard this fish as yet as it certainly does not look sick from here.
I would isolate if you can and try and stop to feed it for a few days. I had similar problems but my pond is now a koi gym as I have inruduced a strong stream and the fish love it, and they are looking great. I must add that I have had koi spawn extensively at 18 months ie at the baby koi show, so maybe if you are lucky this might be it.

Best of luck
Ps. Swimming aganst a current does wonders for them
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:25 pm

ok so far nothing... the male is chasing her but nothing from her side. As can be seen in the video things started of very ruff and fast yesterday.

Today during the warm weather they decided to give it a rest for a while and to rather hide under the plants and shade netting. Now this evening he started chasing her again but its more of a follow my leader at slow speed.

So i decided to seperate them for 1hr and to do a big water change...wow now the passion is back (mainly from his side)

While they where seperated i investigated both, his gillplates feel like he hasnt shaven for 3 days. I also felt her belly (swollen part) it soft very soft.

So can some of the local breeders give me some pointers....how do i get her in the mood. The male is obviously intrested.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:28 am

I had the same problems two year ago with a 50 mm utsuri from knysna ass well, tried to spawn her but didnot get better, the swelling got so worse that at a later stage she could not go down but stay close to the surface, got and oppinion from another koi keeper in George who told me it was kidney failure and we put her asleep, she also whon a 1st price in her category at the George show.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:43 am

Hi Nellius

Ill have to see what happens but kidney failure usually causes dropsy. Dropsy is when the fish swells up and the scales begin to lift giving it a pinecone effect. Dropsy starts at the front of the body and moves towards the back. Popeye and Dropsy also usualy goes hand in hand with each other.

At the momment i pretty sure that its not dropsy but i am concerned that they female cant release the eggs for some reason.

We have had several warm days and i have been doing daily water changes since i started spawning them. Last night at 9pm the water was 30'C. After doing a 80% water change the tempreture was 25'C. We are having a cloudy and windy day today and the water temp is now 23'C. I was told that females will only spawn between 18'C and 20'C. So im not sure if i am going to achieve that.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:59 am

I would like to share with you my experience attending a local breed Koi Sale about a year ago. I do not want to name anyone as I take full responsibility for my purchase. This is the same Utsuri now with Wayne and when he took her from me she was reasonably Ok but had since grown very big quickly. She had some carpox at the time and it seems that I have passed her on just in time. LOL (This turns out to be a mean gift) Sorry but Wayne new the circumstances and is not complaining.
I bought a local breed koi to the value of R 1200 and was then call back and convinced by experienced keepers to purchase a second Koi at R 2400 (32-34cm)
A month later Koi no 1 took a first place and Koi no 2 took a supreme prize at a show. 2 months later at another show I entered Koi 2 and a very experienced Koi person that did the benching had second thoughts in benching this Koi due to a serious defect of the face. I could not see this and later an experienced judge explained the demerit to me and I could still not fully recognize the problem. Needless to say a few months later I started to see the issue and I could also see how badly her swimming movements were affected as well.
The moral of the storey is that sometimes even experts are fooled as I do not believe there was any intent to do me in and sell me an inferior Koi. These things can happen and it is not a reflection on local breed Koi.
Koi no 1 is still swimming in my pond and doing just fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:11 am

For those that want to know, this is shiro utsturi was spawned from parents coming from the Tekada bloodline.
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:41 am

Hi,

That is a TUMOR!

I purchased three Shiro Utsurimono from Phillip last year, and two died with tumors.
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Sun Jan 24, 2010 7:30 am

Hi Pieter, it looks like you might be right.

I have now tried everything, i dont think she is able to release the eggs or there is no eggs and its a tumour that has her so bloated. Her body feels soft and the male is still chasing her up and down hoping to get some action.

Yesterday i decided to cheat and got some of that hormone injections and injected her with 0.85ml. As perscribed 0.5ml for every 1kg, she weighed 1.7kg. In anycase its been more than 12hrs now and so far nothing.

I will stop the whole spawning exercise later today from where she will have to go and wait for the inevitable in my main pond.

Wayne
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:33 am

How long did you have this fish before it started bloating? I bought x2 Shiro Utsuri's from Phillip about 4 - 5 months ago and they are still OK?

Do these tumors mostly start at a certain age or can they start any any time? Reason I'm asking this is because all the fish you're referring to with tumors seem to be more or less the same size or age?
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:02 am

Hi Chris,

Myne was tussen 30-35cm. Dit wil vir my voorkom asof Shiro Utsuri geneig is om gewasse te ontwikkel, as gevolg van " eier-verstopping "

Dit is geneties oordraagbaar en dit kan deur "in breeding" verhoog word.
Die "tumor"kan enige tyd ontwikkel, party visse kan wel met 'n gewas bly leef in diens dit nie die ingewande soos bv. die niere onder druk plaas nie.

Wayne,

Enige nuus?
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:59 am

Hi Pieter,

Nope no news. Christie from cape koi was here yesterday to inspect the female, he is sure that its eggs but it does seem like she is unable to release them. In the abdomen there is a small hard area that might be a tumor. Its a small hard area - feels like the size of a marble.

Julie from koicare has advised me to keep her in the spawning vat for the next 48hrs as the hormone injection forces the eggs to mature and it can take anything from 12hrs to 48hrs. So we are hoping that its just taking its time...

I have now made peace with it, if she dies then she dies there is not much more that i can do. The koi has stunning colours and skin quality but the body conformation is not that great.

I got the koi from bobby knowing there was problems with the body and i was happy to take a chance....i was convinced that bobby was just overfeeding her and giving her to little excerise. geek I think bobby had the koi for 8 months or so, i had it for 2 weeks now but as bobby said earlier 1 month after he purchased the koi the deformaties started to become noticable.

If i listen to a few people that i have spoken to it does sound like it could be due to a bit of "inbreeding". The fish also have a small deformity in the face. (The nose or head is apparently to short)

I was hoping to breed this fish later this year with a shiro from the omasako bloodline (my avatar) but we discovered this weekend that this koi (avatar) is a female and not a male.....so breeding the two was going to bo tricky. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Mon Jan 25, 2010 1:38 pm

Wayne.

As sy dood gaan, sny haar oop en kyk self hoe die "tumor" binne gevorm word.

Kyk ook hier:

http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=707&highlight=tumor

Hier is my eerste shiro wat ek ook verloor het (2005) weens eier verstopping:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sakoi/59278973/
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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:54 am

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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:30 am

Chris, one can speculate but no one will never know the true reason. It can be virkon, it can be inbreeding, it can be an complete random accident. Tumors are also very common in koi so its difficult to say.

So far we know that 2 out of 4 koi from knysna koi farm died due to tumors. The one in the discussion is unknown....maybe this is number 3.

One will have to look at the bigger picture. How many of the offspring are surviving after being sold and what % died due to what reason.
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Chris Maritz



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PostSubject: Re: Knysna koi farm Shiru Utsuri   Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:03 am

I understand that, but it's definately worth investigating.... I know it's just speculation and it might be nothing.

If you add my 2 Koi, a fatality rate of 33% (possibly 50%) from a breeder using a chemical none of the other breeders use as often is concerning.

I also bought two shiro utsuri's from there and will keep a close eye on them. They're around 36cm and I've had them for about 4 months now. So far they seem happy and aren't showing any problems...
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