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 FMC and SALT

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Jaco

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PostSubject: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeTue Nov 17, 2009 4:08 pm

Transferred from another topic after it has been split.


Jack Bach wrote:
Some fish seem lethargic, and some are flashing. In the morning they seem to 'school' near the bottom inlet - facing it.

Hi Jack,

You have a serious problem here. Your fish have either Gill Flukes or Costia.
I recommend you dose your pond A.S.A.P.
First with Seponver Plus 4.4ml per 1000L pond water.
Then three treatments 3 days apart with Malachite green Formalin mixture at 20ml per 1000L pond water.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeTue Nov 17, 2009 4:21 pm

Hi,
Quote :
Aquazyme is added after every water change. Salt = 2,5%.

DO NOT USE FORMALIM WHEN THERE IS SALT IN YOUR WATER!

Rather use Potassium Permanganate 3g per 1000lt instead.
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Jaco

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeTue Nov 17, 2009 7:11 pm

I would use Formalin, have done for years without any problems.
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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Correction on SF size   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 1:33 pm

In my initial posting I stated that I had a 3 bag sandfilter. On closer inspection I see it's a Badu Koi 2...so I gather a 2 bag filter. But I put in 3 bags of sand when I replaced it a few weeks ago...and got it all into the container! I suppose that would impede its flow / effectiveness! I understand that the bigger pump would improve flow-rate etc. But can I use a larger pump on a 2 bag SF??
Thanks for all the responses, and advice. I am learning...SLOOOOOOOWLY!
Now for the parasite treatment...... ??????
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 1:59 pm

I think a Badu 2 is basically a three bag filter and requires 80 kg of gravel. Recommended pump size = .45. I believe you should be fine with your .45, and you should rather stick to the manufacturers recommendation.

It seems like you have parasites and I agree with Jaco that it is probably fluke or costia in view of their behaviour, but the best is to check with a microscope.

If it is fluke, you should treat with Seponver @ 4.4 ml/1000 liters. Potassium treatments @ 2.5g/1000 liters will also do the trick, but you will loose good bacteria and run the risk of ending up with a green pond.

If it is costia, FMC (Malachite green and formalin) @ 15ml/1000 liters will do the trick, although it will also affect your filter. 4kg of salt/1000 liters normally kill costia and does not affect your filters.

Bottomline, first see what parasite (if any) you are dealing with. For all you know, it is fish lice(Argulus) , in which case you have to use Dimmilin or Trichlorfon, and the above treatment will do nothing.

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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 2:51 pm

Jack,

Listen to a "poephol," Go with the bigger pump!

Now listen to me you bunch of bright sparks!
You cannot use salt and formalin together! Both strip the mucus from the Koi, and should you use them “together,” it will burn the “skin”of the Koi!

So don’t tell the man to use formalin while there is 2,5% salt in his pond Evil or Very Mad
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Marius Bezuidenhout

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 3:51 pm

Jack

Is it 2.5% or 0.25%? The 2.5% is for a salt bath and I am sure you made a typing error in first post.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 5:20 pm

Marius,

Ja en al die visse was lank al dood! Ons weet wat hy bedoel, 2,5 kg/1000lt
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeWed Nov 18, 2009 9:28 pm

Pieter J de Villiers wrote:
Now listen to me you bunch of bright sparks!
You cannot use salt and formalin together! Both strip the mucus from the Koi, and should you use them “together,” it will burn the “skin”of the Koi!

NO Pieter !!, I beg to differ, salt creates mucus and do not strip mucus. It acts as an irritant which causes production of mucus. I have experienced that a "million" times.

Yes, Formalin do strips mucus, but the only reason why you should not use formalin with more than 0.3 % salt is because formalin strips the water from oxygen. If you use more than 0.3% salt, the gills are not as effective to take the oxygen out of the water as it should due to the mucus build up at he gills, and creates problems if used with formalin. 0.3% / 3kg/1000 liters is fine.

Salt baths and excessive use of salt over a long period of time will also strip the mucus.

The amount of oxygen created during treatment also plays a major role to determine what concentration of salt is fine with Formalin. This principle actually goes for Potassium also, but to a lessor extent.

My advice above was and still is, first test with your microscope, and then treat for the specific parasite. (Seponver, more Salt or FMC , Dimmilin or maybe potassium, depending on the type of parasite)

Do not follow the shotgun approach.

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Jack Bach



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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 5:07 am

Hi there, My salt level must then be ,25...and not 2,5. My salt meter (Hanna DiST WP2) measures in grams per litre, so my conversion was inaccurate. Apologies for throwing the cat among the pigeons.
Last week I took a fish to a local koi retailer who did a scrape. Unfortunately I couldn't pack the larger one which looked ill. Under a microscope he identified Trichondella (flying saucer things), and advised me to treat the pond with PP (30g in 15000 l), which I did. Also advised 50% water change prior to medication, and 50% after treatment, and to finally add 30kg salt. But I have heard - and read - that the water should remain pink for 4 - 6 hours after adding PP. Mine turned brown after 2 hours. Should I re-treat?
Urgently need to get a microscope!
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 5:58 am

The recommended treatment for Chilodonella / Trichodenia ("Flying saucer") is FMC (Malachite green and Formalin)

Potassium will also kill it, but you will have to treat at least three or four times , and and in the process also kills your good bacteria and you have to do water changes. That is why I prefer FMC if I have choices like with Trichodenia.

If I suspect a secondary bacterial infection caused by the parasites, then I go the Potassium route.

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 7:43 am

The most effective treatment against Trichodina seems to be potassium permanganate which seems to work virtually every time.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 9:20 am

Paul,

Point taken, but allow me to comment upon on the following:

Quote :
I beg to differ, salt creates mucus and do not strip mucus
and
Quote :
Salt baths and excessive use of salt over a long period of time will also strip the mucus.
Please explain your argument regarding the two statements.

What is formalin?
According to Lance Jepson (MA. VetMB Cboil MRCVS) in his book KOI MEDICINE

Formalin, a common ingredient of proprietary ecto parasite preparations, lower the levels of oxygen in the water, as well for being toxic to gill tissue. Combine this with warm water, with reduced oxygen-holding capacity, and there could be trouble.

Maarten Lammers ( Veterinarian) in his book THE KOI DOCTER

Formalin is an aqueous solution of formaldehyde gas.
Formalin is volatile and very toxic. It irritates skin and eyes, and causes hypersensitivity and has a carcinogenic potencial in humans.
Active carbon or zeolite should be removed if present.
Formalin should not be mixed with soda, salt or KMnO4, since these combinations cause severe skin and gill burns.

A note under the SALT section:

When using a salt treatment above 2g/l one should not mix it with formalin, malachite green or benzocaine.
If zeolite is present in the filter, it should be removed in order to prevent release of ammonia in the pond.

In the book STEP BY STEP ADVANCED KOI DIAGNOSIS & TREATMENTS by Duncan Griffiths:

On page 100: ** do not use formalin with salt**


Then also read:

http://www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/malachite.htm

I will never use formalin in my Koi pond!
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 10:04 am

Pieter J de Villiers wrote:

Point taken, but allow me to comment upon on the following:

Quote :
I beg to differ, salt creates mucus and do not strip mucus
and
Quote :
Salt baths and excessive use of salt over a long period of time will also strip the mucus.
Please explain your argument regarding the two statements.

In my experience, salt creates a mucus coat. I have battled on a few occasions to get a proper scrape from fish, and after a salt treatment, there is a lot of mucus.

I have also seen that when you use very high dosages, the slime coat often disappears after a while. I do not really know why, but I believe that the koi can not keep up with the production of mucus, and it disappers for a while?

I am no expert on the subject, I only share what my experiences are, and based on that, I am trying to reach a conclusion. There are so many websites and books with different viewpoints. A lot of them say NEVER use ANY salt with formalin. On the other hand, a lot of them say it is OK.

I think differing opinions are good as it challenges our thought processes combined with our own experiences.

As you always say, don't believe everything you are reading.

In this hobby you will find many roads will get you to Rome. No one shares their experiences deliberately trying to confuse or give erroneous information.

I think the value in a forum like this is you get the info you need to help you arrive at where you want to go with what makes sense to you.

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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 10:40 am

Paul,

So we agree to disagree.................salt strip mucus from Koi!

Back to the formalin topic; I would rather use Potassium Permanganate for the following:
White spot
Costia
Chilodinella
Trichodina
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Chris Maritz

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 12:36 pm

How do we solve this......
Fill quarantine pond with "clean water" ie. no salt and treat this water with FMC mix. Then put the fish in the quarantine tank. When all the fish are removed from the main pond treat the main pond with PP.
When you're happy the pond water has been treated successfully, and fish has been checked (scrapes are clean) slowly transfer the fish back to the main pond (2 at a time).
There you go.... Pieter and Paul's solutions incorporated into 1!!
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 3:07 pm

Poor fish.
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Pieter J de Villiers

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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeThu Nov 19, 2009 3:12 pm

I suddenly think about politics

FMC and SALT Real-life-vs-politicsjpg_550

lol!
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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2009 3:10 am

Hi,
Sea water is 3.5% salt. That is 35kg of salt per 1000L. If you have added 2 kilos of salt per 1000L you have a 0.2% salt solution.

Why add salt in the first place? Koi are fresh water fish.

If you have koi with parasites it is better to treat the whole pond. Do not give a 50% water change before - this is a waste of time. If you do give a 50% water change you may have to use a de-chlor. This will then affect the "medications" you use.

Most parasties need more than one treatment - OF THE SAME CHEMICAL. You can only kill the adults and the eggs or cysts just sit around waiting to hatch and re-infect you collection. So be careful. You need to break the cycle.

If you are going to use PP KNOW what you are doing. PP is a strong oxidizer of EVERYTHING in the pond. Watch out for small/young fish as they do not take kindly to PP treatments because of their underdeveloped gills.

Know your pond volume - know your dosages. Do not mix "medications". Stick with one course of action.

I cannot find why you must not use formalin with salt. Anyone have a reference for me. There is conflicting info on this.

Salt is an irritant and the koi will product mucus. A LOT of salt will begin to strip the mucus from the fish. And why would you want to do that.

When mucus production is stimulated this also means mucus on the gills. This can impede the up-take of oxygen.

Koi under stress benefit for low levels of salt as this helps with the osmosis and body fluid loss. Here we are talking about 1 - 2kg per 1000L. 0.1 - 0.2 % salt. Also fish with open sores and ulcers benefit from the addition of salt for the same reasons (loss of body fluids) - at a higher level than the stress dosage but not too high.

Extra oxygen if possible during treatment. Stop feeding before and after for a day or two.
Anticipate there will be some gill damage so watch the koi carefully for some time after treatments.

And remember you cannot hear your koi scream under water .....

Chris
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PostSubject: Re: FMC and SALT   FMC and SALT Icon_minitimeTue Nov 24, 2009 2:04 pm

Hi further to my positing above ...

When we start asking questions we often find answers that 1) we do not like 2) we do not believe 3) or suddenly a light gets turned on.

Take Wheat Germ for example - when we start asking questions we get some interesting answers.

Now with formalin and salt - the reason I ask is that I am nearly finished with the New South Africa Koi Keepers Society Health Guide. And by a strange coincidence I came across the posting on formalin and salt when I was in the middle of the section on salt!

There is much conflicting information on this subject and I can't find an answer. What I did find was that formalin is used in Marine Aquariums and (gulp, sweat, swoon) Marine Aquariums have salt in them - lots of salt.

So I asked my self where did the notion of not using formalin when you have salt (a relatively small amount) in koi ponds come from! And I can't find an answer.

What we do know is that salt lowers the oxygen levels (a very small amount) and that formalin removes al lot of oxygen from the water. Soooooo - perhaps its this fact that results in the recommendation of not using salt and formalin together.

The better references ALL say you MUST increase the oxygenation to your pond when using formalin.

Regards,
Chris
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