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Chris Maritz

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PostSubject: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 8:53 am

I need some help from everyone especially people using Shogun Koi food. I use to feed my Koi Tetra 3-in-1 pond sticks and was happy with it. Then after speaking to various people I thought I'd try Shogun. I bought 1 pack around 3 months ago and this weekend I opened a new pack I bought. I noticed that my fish weren't eating as eagerly as before with the Tetra and now with the new pack of Shogun they are eager at feeding time again. I've been having problems with illness (bacteria) and I realise now that my fish weren't getting the proper nutrition in their diet to build up their immune systems etc! I'm really upset that a brand new pack of food could do this to my fish! See attached pics of the difference between the two packs I bought..... Am I wrong in saying this or could this be the reason for my problems. Has anyone else feeding Shogun experienced this problem with the difference in packets??

Shogun food DSC01345

Shogun food DSC01348

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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 11:16 am

Chris Neaves has send me this mail in August:

Good morning,

I hope you are all well.

I visited the new factory that is producing Shogun food for me yesterday (Wednesday) morning. The first sample pellets were made and they look great.



An update on what’s happening –



I met with the consulting aqua nutritionist from America on Wednesday. We went through the formula Shogun has been using for these past 15 years. After consulting with him in America and with the new factory here in South Africa a few minor changes have been made.



The first one that is immediately noticeable is the colour of the pellets has changed. Shogun will no longer be a green pellet. The green lake used to colour the pellets has been removed and the pellets are now a brownish completely natural colour.



The carbohydrate source in the pellets is now wheat. Wheat comes very finely milled and helps to form a better shaped pellet. It also has good binding properties which ensure the minimal leaching of vitamins into the water as the pellets float.



Some adjustments have been made to the protein sources. However the guaranteed protein content is still 40% AND matches a world famous brand of koi pellets in the total amino acid profile.



I am looking 10 years down the road at costs and supply as I am trying to stabilise the price of Shogun.



Then the new factory has a good source of a marine blend of krill, squid, shrimp and kelp meal. This is now included in the Shogun formulation.



The levels of the vitamins and minerals added as still full spectrum as before but we have increased the levels.



Shogun is still available in 20kg bulk bags, 2kg and 5kg.



There may be a slight price increase – really slight a few percent at most. This is brought about mainly by the increased transport costs we are incurring.



A comment on the new factory – it is absolutely meticulous in its hygiene and cleanliness. I will take a picture and send it on to you as we press the start button next week.



Production is scheduled for Tuesday the 18th August and I will have good stocks of 6mm and 3mm on Wednesday.



If you need stock please let me know as I will be packing on Thursday next week and want to get everything lined up so we can get going for the new season.



If you need any further info please contact me.



Kind regards,
Chris

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Chris Neaves



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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 11:33 am

Hi Chris,

I am the manufacturer of Shogun.

In May of this year the factory that had been producing Shogun for me for the past ten years informed me that they were no longer sub-contracting for any of the feeds they make.

It was a scramble to get a new factory lined up. To make a short story as long as possible - I took my formula to the new factory and sat around a table discussing the supply and cost of raw materials etc.

I met a very clever aqua nutritionist from America who is consulting for the new factory and he came up with some very good suggestions.

The nutritional values of shogun are more or less exactly the same as before. The packet you have shown in your posting lists the ingredients a certain way. One I must point out - protein. On the packet it is lists as a guaranteed minimum of 37%. Shogun has 40% protein at the moment. I have not changed those packets purely from an expense point of view.

In the "new" Shogun the most obvious difference is in the colour of the pellets. When I started making Shogun in 1996 I decided to make the colour of the pellets green, This was a commercial decision. The green colour is totally inert and added to the mix.

By removing the green colour I saved some costs for two reasons. 1) the actual cost of the green lake colourant and 2) at the new factory after 8 tons of Shogun have been made the green colourant would leave a residue inside the machinery. The next batch of food to go through the machines - this could be anything the factory is making would be contaminated for perhaps a ton or two. The factory would need to dry flush the system with around 500 kg of dry maze meal to clean the system. I would have to pay for that.

We looked at the protein sources and made some adjustments to the inclusion rates of some of them. This was to try to stabilize the price as the cost of raw materials has gone through the roof. For example about 4 year ago we were paying around R3500 per ton of fish meal. This now cost R10,000 per ton. If China decides it needs the worlds supply of fish meal tomorrow they have the money to buy it and the consequence of that would be the rest of the world would experience a shortage and the price would go through the roof.

The important thing here is the amino acid profile is exactly the same as before. (By the way Shogun has been 40% protein for about 6 years now).

The next change - we decided to substitute wheat for white maize as the carbohydrate source.

The vitamin and mineral premix available at the new factory had a slightly different profile. The vitamin A, E and C were about 18 - 20% higher than in the original formulation. The original levels were already very good but an extra 20% of those vitamins really interested me.

Then the new factory had a marine blend available. This was krill, squid, shrimp and kelp. This has now been included in the new formula.

So the pellets you now get are better than the green ones. They float better, retain the vitamins better (bind better because of the wheat), have higher level of vitamin A, E and C. Plus you now get krill, shrimp, squid and kelp.

The colour of the pellets is completely natural. Its kind of strange as people get so used to associating a colour with a food. I can't tell you how many people will only buy koi pellets that are red and green in the packets. The colour has nothing to do with the nutritional values.

That's it. I doubt if you will find a manufacture of a koi food being so honest about their products. I am very proud of Shogun. If you have any concerns about Shogun or koi nutrition in general please contact me.

neaves@mweb.co.za

Your problem with bacteria - I seriously doubt it is related to the Shogun pellets or any nutritional deficiencies. Can you describe this separately and we can try to get to the bottom of this for you. Shogun green pellets and Shogun natural coloured pellets were made and are still been made monthly. I am fanatical about fresh food.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. the packer who supplies the company where you bought your Shogun should have included a sticker about the natural colour and the addition of krill. Will talk to them.


Last edited by Chris Neaves on Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 11:56 am

Thanks for the reply. I was scared that the previous shogun packet had maybe gone off or something with the vast difference in appearance and smell. At least now I know Very Happy

As for the bacteria problem. It affected about 5 of my koi but at least the most precious ones weren't affected and I quarantined the others. Luckily my more precious koi aren't showing any of the signs... I think I managed to get the situation under control using Virkon S, Potasium Permanganate and Amikacin injections in the more severe cases.
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeMon Nov 02, 2009 12:01 pm

oh yes.........Pieter, I am registered on that site already.
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeTue Nov 03, 2009 7:49 pm

Hi All

After a couple of clients asked me about the "new" Shogun Koi feed - I decided to try it out for myself.......... I have only used it now for 2 weeks..... but so far I must say that I am very impressed with the new formula!

1) I like the look and feel of the pellet.
2) I (and my fish) like the smell of the pellet.
3) There has been NO deterioration in water quality - and my filters (I use Nexus's) have remained the same in terms of volume of waste - no deterioration whatsoever in my filters.
4) My fish actually LIKE / LOVE eating this food.... (sorry, Chris, but I need to be honest.....unlike the previous formula - they spat the previous version of Shogun). Now they are all there waiting for me each meal and eagerly gobble them down. (I must add here that my fish are used to being spoilt by eating EA ONE, Hikari and Saki Hikari and Tetra ... and so they do not easily accept other pellets..... so the fact that they actually want to eat this food is a very good sign for me)
5) I specifically like the Pellet sizes - the 5-6mm are perfect for my larger koi and the 3mm - which is really more like 2mm and some crumbles are perfect for the fry and fingerlings - I notice that the "crumbles bits" in the 2-3mm sink - which is great as all the fish of all different sizes get to eat - the smaller fish swim down to grab the crumbles ... this might be a bit annoying for some - but I find this great, especially for those with ponds of all different sized fishes - so please do not change this.... Very Happy
6) And last, but not least..... the MOOLA it costs....... now that is a bargain! The change will probably be 1/4 or 1/5th, maybe even more...need to do the final figures....... of my current food bill!! In the ecconomic times we are currently hitting, this is also a huge plus...so value for money is definately there!

Oh, and one more..sorry.... 7) AND it is ALWAYS available! another huge major plus..........currently I have to work out my food over a 3 or 6 month period to ensure that I do not run out of food.... and then (I know this as an importer of EA ONE) the food does not always arrive on time..... so locally available good quality, tasty food is a good thing.....

OK, now having said all this.... I have only used it for about 2 weeks now.... so long term we shall see the condition of my fish.......so far I am not witnessing any heavy bellies - digestion appears to be very good - no excess waste in comparison with my usual "very expensive" feeds.... palatibility is high..... I like the % protein, I like the ingredients......

So...... for now I can say - well done Chris - you get a thumbs up from me, on a 2 week review! A really good food......and I would suggest that for those who have not tried it - give it a try and see for yourselves........

Personally, I think that the food is of the quality that would put it in the market to give some of the HIGH end brands a good run for their money.... I will definately start to stock it again to sell to my clients, and I will continue to use it myself and see the longer term results.....

Today I ordered another 100kg's.......... cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeTue Nov 03, 2009 8:24 pm

KoiCare, what a review! The cheque must be in the mail lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeTue Nov 03, 2009 8:53 pm

What are the recommended retail prices for the different packs ?
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 3:07 am

I am weak at the knees ....... especially after our previous debates!

Thank you
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 6:28 am

Colyn wrote:
What are the recommended retail prices for the different packs ?

Hmmm ... is it a secret ?
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 7:37 am

Chris - I will give you your deserved dues ..... I believe I am a fair and honest person...... Laughing so far I really do like what you have done with the formula...and my "fussy" fish really like the food - and my water quality has not budged one little iota - so well done!

I must ask though - is it possible for you to crumble the food for fry and fingerlings. Currently I only know of one supplier of crumble food ...and they use as their protein "meat and animal derivatives" - need I say more..... their protein % is also way to low to raise fry! This food would have to be supplemented to make up for the lack of nutrition......! I was working with another manufacturer to provide food for fry and fingerlings..but if you could crumble your forumla that would save reinventing the wheel. Crumbles would need to be around 1mm and 1,5mm. I am sure that all the breeders out there would appreciate a higher % of protein feed for their fry and a far better and easier digested protein.

Colyn - on the pricing - I am not sure what everyone all around the country pays - I am sure that out of JHB would incur courier charges etc - and for the clients I have they purchase 20kg bags - the retail on a 20kg is around R630-00 odd - depending on who you buy from - some people have much higher overheads and thus need to charge a little more....

The 20kg bags are really good value and they come in a plastic bag which is sealed and placed inside a "sacking type" material - Chris will have to correct me here I do not know the correct terminology for his packaging.... so you are guaranteed no contamination and freshness...also the other plus which I did not mention is that it is manufactured in small batches - compared to all the imported foods...which as people have pointed out micht have long shelf lives due to the usually high levels of preservatives etc (which I do not think is great for the fish) but at the same time you have no idea whether you are buying food thatis already 6 months old....

The other interesting point which I do not think I have discussed before is that often preservatives like BHA, BHT and Ethoxyquin are used to preserve feeds for long shelf lives....if you look up any of these you will see that they are ALL known cancer causing agents and many of these are already banned from human food use..... so having a food which is guaranteed to have a 2 year shelf life (to me, in my humble opinion) is acutally not great at all! I would rather have a food which only has a 1 year shelf life....and contains less harmful chemicals! So for those who have wondered why their fish all of a sudden develop growths, tumours etc especially after the age of 6..... look to the food you are feeding...quiet possibly the answer lies there.

Sadly preservatives are needed in preserving food.....but less is a better thing!

Chris, perhaps you could post a list of Suppliers of your food and their contact details..so people can give the food a try.

Bobby - ya that was a good hint....... Chris is my cheque in the mail? I think I deserve something for the review Razz!
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 8:20 am

I envy all you people talking about the various foods and lovely things available... I'm so frustrated down here in PE as we don't have a variety to choose from whether it's food or any other products. Believe it or not all petshops and other places here only stock Tetra or AquaNutro. I have to go to Pick & Pay or Builders Warehouse to buy the Shogun and there you only get the one pack and pallet size!

Chris, can you maybe point me a direction here where I can get hold of the different pack and pallet sizes? There's a new pet supply store specializing in fish equipment etc and they have always only sold wholesale but is now going through a complete revamp & will now start selling to the public as well. I'll try to persuade them to stock the Shogun range of foods...

There's such a big market for koi here in PE but unfortunately I don't have the capital outlay to get it off the ground.
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 8:37 am

Hi Chris with this review you will no longer need to spend money on marketing. So thanks for sponsoring next years Koi Indaba in Cape Town. The WCKC will appreciate all the extras you will now have to sponsor the 2010 Willowbridge Cape Show.

2010 SHOGUN WESTERN CAPE KOI SHOW AT WILLOWBRIDGE

Our account no.............

Sorry Chris only trying my luck

Chairman Western Cape Koi Soiciety
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 11:25 am

I have been using and selling Aquanutro for the last 6 years, but after this review by Julie, I will have to give Shogun a try.

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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 12:03 pm

Chris wrote:
I am weak at the knees ....... especially after our previous debates!

Whow!! Chris will have rubber legs by tonight and won't be able to go to the bank and pay in the WCKC sponsor money. Basketball
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 1:32 pm

Hi,

Quote :
so long term we shall see the condition of my fish.......so far I am not witnessing any heavy bellies - digestion appears to be very good

No heavy pot bellies!? Thats why I stopped using Shogun in the first place!
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 1:48 pm

Hi Pieter,
If I recall correctly it was two fish that developed like that - perhaps genetics?
Kind regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 1:51 pm

We must get that Koi Indaba going in Cape Town - the one in East London was a great success. We also managed to advise numerous koi keepers on their ponds - successfully I might add.

The Koi Indaba is a SAKKS initiative so I will lean on them .....

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 1:53 pm

Now, now Bobby - settle down, settle down .....

Miracles happen immediately - the impossible takes a little time.

Regards,
Chris

P.S. leave my rubber legs out of this .... actually I put on shorts the other day and as I was walking through the shopping centre this rather attractive blond walked over to me and said if she had legs like mine she would walk on her hands ......


Last edited by Chris Neaves on Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 1:55 pm

Dear KoiCare

I will speak to the factory about very small pellets / crumble.

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 2:52 pm

Quote :
..........I was walking through the shopping centre this rather attractive blond walked over to me and said if she had legs like mine she would walk on her hands ......

Genetics, Chris..............Genetics!

Shogun should help! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeWed Nov 04, 2009 7:37 pm

Admin wrote:
I have been using and selling Aquanutro for the last 6 years, but after this review by Julie, I will have to give Shogun a try.

well Paul think i might give it a try aswell, hope you dont mind as you have been my food supplier for the past year.
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PostSubject: Shogun Koi Crumbles   Shogun food Icon_minitimeTue Nov 10, 2009 7:41 pm

Hi Koicare -

In your response to your request for crumbles for babies - I have spoken to the factory and I have some good news.

I will be contacting you in the next day or so.

Regards,
Chris
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeTue Nov 10, 2009 8:30 pm

Super - thank you!
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PostSubject: Re: Shogun food   Shogun food Icon_minitimeFri Nov 13, 2009 6:30 pm

I have been using the new Shogun food for a week now and must tell you my koi go crasy at meal times they really go mad when i put the food in, they never did that before,

almost seems as i am feeding them to little should i just keep the amount the same or up it a touch,

is it a good sign that they go so crasy at meal times, am i right.
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