Ernst,

Quote:

I have an open question - how often do you we see koi come in from Japan and actually improve in SA?

To me the answer should be in the water.

I really do think that the water quality in Japan is must better then here in South Africa, and I do not refer to the filter systems used in ponds, more likely the Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) of the water before added to the pond itself.
Someone told me the TDS in Japan water is less then 70 ppm with a pH of 7- 7,2. If you look at our water from the local authorities, it would be plus-minus 240 ppm with a ph between 8-8, 7. So with top-up or water changes you adding to the TDS and pH reading to rise.
A TDS recording of more than 800 ppm would indicate a level of pollution, containing everything that can be dissolved into water.
Whereas a reading of 200 ppm or below without having good water management could not be achieved.
The difference between “Japan” and “SA’ water is so big that it is nearly impossible to achieve the standard of water to maintain the quality of Japanese imported Koi.

This is only my opinion!

_________________
Pieter J de Villiers
http://southafricankoi.11.forumer.com
"I am KoiMad...........but garlic wise!"
FEED GARLIC, NO PARASITES!!

Pieter
I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am trying to understand this very involved hobby and the importance of good water keeping. I have notice that the salt level severely affects the TDS readings.

Coming back to the food source, would food that produce less waist then not also assist with better water quality. As you know water changes is very important to the water quality but with the municipal water of today, the quality and threats of increased levy's must be a concern.

Do to the nature of my plants I use very little water for gardening with only a 10 000lt pond my monthly water bill is between R650-850 Plus I have now been battling with the authorities for 5 months to pass plans for a new pond.

Maybe when I eventually start digging my new pond I must also check for bore water. Lots of clay around

I have read this with some interest.

The quote "Genetics = 50%, water =30% and food =20%" grabbed me personally. I would respectfully disagree.

The ratio is far closer to 99% genetics. I assume every show keeping quality Koi hobbyist will have the water quality waxed and polished - so discounting this entirely and assuming everything else to be equal if the genetics of the Koi are not championship (whatever you may determine this to arbitrarily be!) then the Koi will not be a champion. End of story - finished and klaar.

Of course this makes the assumption that food is 1%. Far from it. The choice of what food to feed is the single biggest contribution you can make to extracting the maximum potential located within that genetic makeup of your Koi.

Make no mistake about it. Growing Koi is about extracting the potential of the living art within the Koi. You will never make the Koi more than it can be - BUT you can certainly ruin it's potential with a crappy food.

Chris and Happy Koi have engaged many times over food - Chris is a gentleman and of course we would rate his food as the best locally produced. However, we obviously differ in context over Hikari!

Saki Hikari doesn't produce much waste - this is a good thing. There is more than enough digestive material in the food but the statement a big poop is a good one needs to be qualified - Saki Hikari doesn't produce big poops since most of the food stays inside the fish - hence the massive growth rates registered with the food. Think if it as the Koi equivalent of Eukanuba - there are few debates about the quality of Eukanuba poop!

Hikari (actually just the brand name - the company is called Kyorin) have manufactured ornamental fish food for over a century. They run one of the largest Koi fish farms in Japan for the single purpose of testing and researching their Koi fish foods. Their multi million dollar laboratory and their research over decades means that what they don't know about Koi nutrition isn't worth knowing. Amino acid profiling, trace elements and ingredient addition is something Hikari pioneered - not just with Koi as it happens. They know what goes on inside the digestive system in a Koi more than anyone else in the world.

The results speak for themselves. Supreme Grand Champion at the All Japan Show for the last 7 years running now. All fed on Saki Hikari, exclusively.

There are no substitutes for quality and consistency in ingredients! Saki Hikari is expensive, relatively speaking only!, because the quality of their ingredients is the highest possible available. Kyorin also produce quantities of Saki that are simply staggering meaning their economies of scale are enormous. If every South African fed only Saki Hikari to their Koi their factories would be busy making up this food order for less than a week to put it into context.

Koi food is NOT a short term investment. You cannot expect to feed a quality Koi food like Saki Hikari for a year and expect results. Koi typically should peak between the ages of 6 and 12 years. You cannot simply feed Hikari for the months before a Koi show and expect massive changes. It doesn't work like that sadly. Koi need to be fed a consistent diet from the very beginnings to extract the best you possibly can from the genetics of the Koi.

There is also considerable skill from the hobbyist that plays a critical role in this process. We all know that you can fly to Japan, plonk down your blank cheque and bring back the Champion. Whilst some of us are able to do this - most of us prefer the challenge of growing our own champions. This skill starts with the selection of the Koi, and then with the way in which you bring this Koi up - contrary to popular belief auto feeders are not the answer...

Selection of your Koi food is thus a critical decision. We've heard the arguments that Saki Hikari is too expensive, and trust us we're working on this! BUT if your Koi are worth a few grand, the cost of the food should be seen in context! We've seen collections of Koi worth several hundred thousand rand utterly ruined by feeding a cheap Koi food. We've seen Koi purchased from us at several tens of thousands of rands - and then being fed food of a few hundred rand - for the year! It is in short, insane.

So in an unashamed punt for Saki Hikari - healthier Koi and healthier water means a healthier pond and a healthier LONG TERM Koi budget. The Japanese understand Koi keeping is not a destination - it is a journey with your Koi.

I also want to mention that even the entry level Hikari foods - the Staple and the Economy/Friend range offer superlative solutions for Koi keepers. We have proven that even Economy delivers massive growth results - and the price of this food is more than affordable. Stay tuned to the Happy Koi News for the next round of pricing on Hikari - we'll think you'll be pleasantly surprised at the seriously large price drop we'll be implementing on the next shipment.

Regards,
William
Happy Koi

Hi William

Thanks for the feedback, looking forward to better pricing.

I would like to read the actual unedited internet debate between Hikari (SA and Japan) Terta and Shogun on wheatgerm as quoted by Chris.

Quote:

I would like to go into some other statements made here and on the referred websites but then it gets long and boring .... however, at the beginning of the year there was an internet debate between Shogun, Hikari (here in SA and Japan) and Tetra regarding wheatgerm koi foods. Very interesting. The internet correspondence has been collated into an article for KOISA and they are going to publish it soon.

I agree with the folowing....

Quote:

Saki Hikari doesn't produce much waste

_________________
Bobby Matthee
Koi- The Art of Waterkeeping

Waltham - for anyone who does not know is a "LEADING" Dog and Cat Food Manufacturer - brands like Nutro...Whiskas....Royal Canin... Pedigree etc..

Interesting enough a majority of petfood companies are somehow associated or owned by Human Food Companies..... it is a well known fact that these Human food Companies use their wastes to produce pet food...

http://www.bornfreeusa.org/downloads/pdf/PetFoodReport_05-07.pdf

Nestlé’s bought Purina to form Nestlé Purina Petcare Company (Fancy Feast, Alpo, Friskies, Mighty Dog, Dog Chow, Cat Chow, Puppy Chow, Kitten Chow, Beneful, One, ProPlan, DeliCat, HiPro, Kit’n’Kaboodle, Tender Vittles, Purina Veterinary Diets).
• Del Monte gobbled up Heinz (MeowMix, Gravy Train, Kibbles ’n Bits, Wagwells, 9Lives, Cycle, Skippy, Nature’s Recipe, and pet treats Milk Bone, Pup-Peroni, Snausages, Pounce).
• MasterFoods owns Mars, Inc., which consumed Royal Canin (Pedigree, Waltham’s, Cesar, Sheba, Temptations, Goodlife Recipe, Sensible Choice, Excel).

Other major pet food makers are not best known for pet care, although many of their house hold and personal care products do use ingredients derived from animal by-products:
• Procter and Gamble (P&G) purchased The Iams Company (Iams, Eukanuba) in 1999. P&G shortly thereafter introduced Iams into grocery stores, where it did very well.
• Colgate-Palmolive bought Hill’s Science Diet (founded in 1939) in 1976 (Hill’s Science Diet, Prescription Diets, Nature’s Best)

Private labelers (who make food for “house” brands like Kroger and Wal-Mart) and co-packers (who produce food for other pet food makers) are also major players. Three major companies are Doane Pet Care, Diamond, and Menu Foods; they produce food for dozens of private label
and brand names. Interestingly, all 3 of these companies have been involved in pet food recalls that sickened or killed many pets.

http://www.animalrightsafrica.org/Archive/PetFood/FoodPetsDieForBiophile14FINAL.pdf

Do yourself a favour a visit this link and see their review on the dog or cat food you feed.... they even comment on each food ingredient used in the foods and why you should not use them... (they are updating their web at the moment, so try later on)

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html


Masterfoods - which owns Waltham is yet again in trouble.....
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2009/04/nutro_foia.html

You can also check which brands of foods have been recalled, and just how many times it is the same companies involved....
http://www.fda.gov/oc/opacom/hottopics/petfood.html#recall

When formulating feeds, some, or should I say many Nutritionists work on a "Least Cost Formulation"
http://www.labdiet.com/factsonformulation.htm
This formulation does not mean the the food has a high digestibility.... or even whether the ingredients used are able to be digested by the animal... the same goes with many fish foods.....

Personally I do not understand - "not wanting a food to be digestible - and as highly digestible as possible" - this just makes no sense... Chris perhaps you can share with us why any nutritionist would not want a food to be as digestible as possible? Surely the intention is for the animal / fish etc to be able to assimilate and absorb all the nutrients possible - thereby producing less waste?

When you say "would you rather the fish digests more of the protein or digests more of the carbohydrates" - the fish should be able to digest ALL the nutrition in the food........ the food should be balanced and complete - after all in 90% of cases this is the only food they are eating! If there is too much carbohydrate or the food is not balanced ..... then there is a problem with the formulation.......

I also do not understand why "a large poo - is better than a small one"?

Perhaps you can help me understand this?

Sadly you mentioned a company which to the best of my knowledge is a Dog and Cat Food manufacturer - and not a Koi Food manufacturer..... what specific studies have they done on Koi Food Nutrition? And their research and current dog and cat food has been linked to possibly causing a host of diseases and ailments in dogs and cats - something that they specialise in.........

So I am sorry if I do not have any confidence in "Dog and Cat Food" Companies, let alone any which have been linked to the death or illnesses of Cats and Dogs...

And I quote Dr Pitcairn " As you see, by itself the chemical anaylsis on a label does not mean a whole lot. To underscore this point, one veterinarian concoted a product containing the same composition of the basic proteins, fats and carbohydrates as a common brand of dog food by using "Old Leather Shoes, Crankcase Oil and Wood Shavings."......

Does anyone think that a dog eating this diet would actually get all the nutrients is requires? Let alone whether it would be able to digest it? And I question how long it would live?
The Guaranteed Analysis shown on the information panel of a pet food package tells you how much crude protein, crude fat, fiber, and other vital nutrients are included in your pet's food. It does not, however, provide information about ingredient digestibility. Digestibility, expressed as a percent, is a measure of the amount of food retained in the body after it has been eaten. For example, if a dog eats 8 oz. of food, and produces 3 oz. of stool, the food's digestibility is 63% (the difference between the weight of food eaten and the weight of stool produced, divided by the weight of the food). The digestibility of protein and fat can vary widely depending on their sources.

When I looked up the importance of digestibility on google..... I got:

"Nutrient composition and digestibility are of crucial importance for health and well being of animals."

"Many people make the mistake of judging the quality of a pet food simply by looking at the percentage of protein shown on the label. This is not the best way to judge overall quality for several reasons:

Not all protein is created equal.
Higher protein percentages do not automatically mean higher quality food - the right level of protein for your particular pet is what matters.
Other nutrients levels are necessary for overall health and the proper use of protein by the body.
Let's take a closer look…

Not all protein is created equal

What would you rather feed your pet - four ounces of real chicken meat or four ounces of ground chicken feathers and corn? All three ingredients contain protein, but they are definitely not equal. Ounce for ounce, the real chicken provides more protein, and the protein is highly digestible and usable, allowing pets to eat smaller quantities to receive the optimal level of protein.

In contrast, the ground feathers contain protein, but in a nondigestible form. Digestibility is key to evaluating a protein's nutritional value. Real meat offers highly digestible protein - protein that is easily broken down by your pet's body. Your pet cannot digest and cannot live on the protein contained in feathers. It simply passes through the digestive system unused.

Utilization is another key to evaluating protein sources. Corn has digestible protein that is absorbed, but it is not as usable by the body as the protein from meat or eggs. Corn must be combined with another grain to supply the range of essential amino acids that meat or eggs supply by themselves. Pets will need to eat larger quantities of corn and other grains to obtain the same amount of usable protein that is in chicken.

When comparing pet foods, be sure to consider the type and quality of protein used - not just the quantity. Look for foods with highly digestible, usable protein. Real meat, fish, and eggs, for example, provide your pet with the highest levels of usable protein, while allowing you to feed lesser quantities of food.

Different pets have different protein needs

Many people wrongly assume that a pet food with a high protein level is automatically better for their pet. This is incorrect for two reasons. First, as described above, the quality of the protein is a critical factor - it doesn't matter if a food has a high percentage of protein if the protein comes from a less-digestible or less-usable source. Secondly, optimal protein levels for different life stages and activity levels vary. Senior pets generally require less protein than active adult pets; and active adult pets need less protein than puppies and kittens. Look for a food that provides the optimum level of protein for your pet's particular life stage and activity. Otherwise, you'll feed your pet excess protein that will simply be converted into fat.

A diet must be balanced

Protein is important, but so are the many other essential nutrients in food. Pets cannot live on protein alone. Calories, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, and minerals must all be present in the proper levels and ratios for your pet to have a balanced diet and properly use the protein in the food.

Choose your proteins with care

Be a critical thinker when it comes to evaluating the protein in your pet's food - first determine whether the protein is derived from a high-quality source that will give your pet the maximum amount of usable, digestible protein. Then, look at the protein percentage to see how much protein the food includes. Remember, a high protein percentage does not guarantee a healthy, beneficial pet food, especially if it merely shows a high percentage of a lesser-quality protein. Finally, don't forget to look at the other nutrients. Your pet may not be able to use the protein as well if other nutrients are lacking."

I am assuming that the same goes for Koi?
I could be wrong?
Could I?

Some interesting opinions on the formulations of fish food and the digestibilities thereof:

http://nlsfishfood.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=29&Itemid=63&limit=1&limitstart=3

http://www.cababstractsplus.org/abstracts/Abstract.aspx?AcNo=19971402552

Wow, lot of information to "DIGEST" Thanks for the info and links.

good gracious ..... how on earth are we going to answer all this .....

Lets give it a go -

"I would like to read the actual unedited internet debate between Hikari (SA and Japan) Terta and Shogun on wheatgerm as quoted by Chris."

I mentioned this because it was very interesting when it happened. I will respect the relevant individuals requests. If a person debates with you and wishes their entire opinion or part of their opinion not to be placed in the public domain then I respect that request.

Bobby, if you and I corresponded in confidence about something it would remain confidential.

Secondly:

"How should the consumer view the lack of response by the Koi food Manufacturers and Suppliers, for the appropriate link and debate as quoted by a Chris Neaves on this forum?"

Bobby -

I do not sit on forums each and every day of my life. If I attempted to answer all the questions thrown at me on many forums I do believe my head would explode. And we would not want that would we.

A response will arrive when I look at the particular forum and have the time.

In answer to your demands - the links you requested - I recall having this debate around carboyhdrates about 10 years ago. At the time I cut and pasted most of the internet debate for my records. As you know this can be very disconnected and often wonder far off the subject. This was basically made into and article. I admit it was not the greatest contribution to literature but an interesting one never-the-less. Perhaps it should be read in context of an internet debate.

I have had a brief look for the links, not very successfully. I have not had the time to explore the original sites in depth. If I recall correctly they took pace on the NI forum and on the Koibito forum. If you find them please let the others know.

The mentioned debate has been made into an article for publication in KOISA.

Further - consumers, koi keepers, pond keepers, individuals are free to email me directly on any subject related to koi. I ALWAYS respond quickly and honestly to koi questions I receive - any koi questions. I do not profess to know everything, never have and never will, so anything I am not conversant with I will research so I can give and reasonable and honest answer to the person I am corresponding with.

"What value can one draw from a collated article in Koisa? " Perhaps you should read the article first and not preempt it.

The article recently published in KOISA on carbs - every comment - the positive and the negative - has been noted.

You are welcome to email me directly should my contribution not be acceptable.

Kind Regards,
Chris

Now I have to tackle the mammoth posting from koicare .... and I am developing a headache

Hi KoiCare ....

Here goes - I hope this email makes sense -

“Waltham - for anyone who does not know is a "LEADING" Dog and Cat Food Manufacturer - brands like Nutro...Whiskas....Royal Canin... Pedigree etc..”

Answer - Waltham – for anyone who does not know, has one of the largest and finest animal nutrition research laboratories and reference libraries in the world. This includes fish nutrition.

FROM -“Interesting enough a majority of petfood companies are somehow associated or owned by Human Food Companies..... it is a well known fact that these Human food Companies use their wastes to produce pet food...”

DOWN TO - “When formulating feeds, some, or should I say many Nutritionists work on a "Least Cost Formulation"

Readers can draw their own conclusions on the relevance of this. However, as koicare points out there are a lot of ingredients used in some koi foods which are not very nice. Feather meal, corn gluten etc etc.

When formulating a food – a koi food – each ingredient – no matter what it is – has specific nutrient properties. This would be the nutrients from amino acids, the level of each amino acid, which vitamins etc. Etc. Each ingredients nutritional values are known before hand and each one is taken into account when formulating a food.

With regards the comment about what goes into cat and dog food – to be quite honest is it relevant? After-all udders, thrown away bits and pieces of this and that ALL have a nutritional value when digested. It may sound realy gross to us but - even a complete earth worm or bug eaten by our koi has bits and pieces that my sound rather gross to us – but to the fish it a tasty, nutritious morsel?

Another factor to take into account – if these gross bits and pieces were not used in pet food their cost would be much higher. In the food industry every part of an animal or plant has a use.

“Leas Cost Formulation” – this allow manufactures some flexibility when producing feeds. If a certain ingredient is in short supply they can and do substitute another available ingredient with the same nutritional values and keep the cost down.

“Personally I do not understand - "not wanting a food to be digestible - and as highly digestible as possible" - this just makes no sense... Chris perhaps you can share with us why any nutritionist would not want a food to be as digestible as possible? Surely the intention is for the animal / fish etc to be able to assimilate and absorb all the nutrients possible - thereby producing less waste?”

Correct, you want the food to be as digestible as possible. This is ell known. You also want the food to move through the gut. This is why indigestible fiber is important in the diet. NO food will be or can be 100% digestible. Take the carbohydrate portion in the diet of koi – koi can digest carbs rather well. But in reality you do not want all the carbs digested and absorbed.

“ “When you say "would you rather the fish digests more of the protein or digests more of the carbohydrates" - the fish should be able to digest ALL the nutrition in the food........ the food should be balanced and complete - after all in 90% of cases this is the only food they are eating! If there is too much carbohydrate or the food is not balanced ..... then there is a problem with the formulation.......”

No not all – a very high level. What do you mean by balanced and complete?
and What is considered too much carbohydrate?

“I also do not understand why "a large poo - is better than a small one"?

Perhaps you can help me understand this?”

Koi as with humans must have a regular gut. Humans eat a balance diet – or at least they think they do. Well actually if they did not grow and are healthy their diet would not be balanced. Yet we are continually urged on by the medical profession to eat more roughage. Roughage is indigestible matter. This irritates the bowels and ...... the unused or undigested food passes to waste. Which is better 100% of what we eat is digested and absorbed or what is needed is absorbed and the rest passed to waste.

Now with koi a large part of the ammonia waste is passed through the gills and not the kidneys like humans/animals. But there is still a need to remove the unabsorbed solid matter from the gut. So it’s better to have a large poo – i.e. a good working stomach than one which is not working very well because everything or 98% of what is pulled into the mouth as a pellet is digested and absorbed.

“Sadly you mentioned a company which to the best of my knowledge is a Dog and Cat Food manufacturer - and not a Koi Food manufacturer..... what specific studies have they done on Koi Food Nutrition? And their research and current dog and cat food has been linked to possibly causing a host of diseases and ailments in dogs and cats - something that they specialise in.........

So I am sorry if I do not have any confidence in "Dog and Cat Food" Companies, let alone any which have been linked to the death or illnesses of Cats and Dogs...”

There are very few companies that are dedicated koi food producers – very few. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a company producing a host of different feeds. The formulations are done separately and are specific to that animal. There is a great deal of knowledge around animals feeds – including fish feeds. One just has to look at the excellent results obtained over the last 50 years with koi keepers. Some of them are doing something right some of the time. Another reality check - very few pet food/koi food companies have done koi specific studies – and yet there are very good results out there. Not everyone is capable of growing and making their own koi food or cat and dog food for that matter.

In the USA there are about 75,000,000 cats and about 80,000,000 dogs kept as pets. There are over 8,000,000 households with ornamental fish Each animal and fish has to be fed every day. The vast majority are healthy and well cared for by their owners. Every now and again some idiot does something to try to make more money and our pets and sometimes our babes die. When it is discovered the authorities take action and try to clear the problem up. But because a very few animals do unfortunately die from something in the diet it can’t be held against the millions of tons of animal feed that is healthy.

If we think too much about where the steaks and lamb chops come from we will all be vegetarians.

From this point onwards in your post I agree with a lot of what you say. But how does a koi keeper tell which protein source the manufacturer has used? You simply can’t. Protein levels are given, not protein sources. Although the label should state the ingredients in order of level of inclusion. Also the label should state amino acid levels but none do. This immediately implies that we as koi keepers need to know the levels of amino acids that should be in koi food. This in turn leads to another problem. If you consult scientific sources you will find different researchers give different levels of amino acids as minimum requirements.

One last point – koi need higher levels of protein than mammals. So while 20% protein may be acceptable for a cat or a dog fish (koi) need over 30% as an absolute minimum.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Chris

The relevance - was firstly - you mentioned Walthams....and even though they saythey have an aquaculture facility - I have been unsuccessful in finding any koi food manufactured by them - or even Reserch papers that they have done on Koi. Perhaps you can give us the brand names of the Koi food that they manufacture, or refer us to some research that they have done.

Secondly, yes, there is more cats and dogs in households in the world than ornamental (or koi).... you proved my point.... there is more research done on the effects of dietary ingredients etc for Cats and Dogs than has ever been done for Koi. Yet regardless of the fact that these studies have been done and scientific reserach now tells us that Cats are obligate carnivores and that they should not be eating starch and fiber as it causes Struvite Crystal formation:

Evaluation of effects of dietary carbohydrate on formation of struvite crystals in urine and macromineral balance in clinically normal cats. - Starch and fiber in diets potentially stimulate formation of struvite crystals. Hence, reducing dietary carbohydrate is desirable to prevent struvite urolith formation. In addition, a net loss of body calcium, phosphorus, and magnesium during feeding of the fiber diet suggests that dietary inclusion of insoluble fiber could increase macromineral requirements of cats.

Yet, did the pet Food companies stop there - no they now needed to find a way to continue using ingredients which ultimately cause Kidney Failure.... so they then try and find a way of adding a chemical to stop this from happening.... again instead of simply saying OK - no more carbs and fiber for cats.....

Effect of supplementation of dry cat food with D,L-methionine and ammonium chloride on struvite activity product and sediment in urine. - Feeding dry foods supplemented with urine acidifier (D,L-methionine (Met) or ammonium chloride) decreased urinary pH and struvite activity product in clinically normal cats. As a result, the number of struvite crystals in urine was greatly reduced. Supplementation with 3% Met but not 1% Met caused decrease in the urinary concentration of sediment, which resulted from a reduction in the HCl-soluble fraction. The concentration of HCl-insoluble sediment was not affected by supplementation with the urine acidifier.

Our of interest Carbs also cause Inflammatory Bowel Disease
By definition, carbohydrate tolerance is the ability to consume dietary carbohydrates without adverse effect or injury. Carbohydrate malassimilation and intolerance are suspected to be common complications of gastrointestinal disease (1) and can result in osmotic diarrhea, bacterial overgrowth, and ill thrift in cats (2).

The pathophysiology of carbohydrate malabsorption in feline gastrointestinal disease is poorly understood. Carbohydrate malabsorption may occur in inflammatory bowel disease (IBD)4 because of the adverse effects of inflammation on digestive enzymes (3) or due to inflammatory infiltrates acting as a nutrient diffusion barrier (4).

The widespread use of commercial diets, the large amount of carbohydrates they contain [many commercial dry cat foods contain at least 40% carbohydrate (5)], and the frequent changes in the formulation of these diets suggest that handling of dietary carbohydrates by cats with gastrointestinal inflammation warrants study. Furthermore, the peculiarities of the digestion, absorption, and metabolism of carbohydrates by cats (6– may make cats with gastrointestinal disease more vulnerable than other species to carbohydrate maldigestion and malabsorption.

I will not dwell on this - the point is that these so called Leading pet Food Manufacturers - have not changed their formulations for cat foods - and this is the number one leading cause of renal failure that we see in cats today.........

Nutritional deficiencies take time to show themselves, and by then the damage is often done......

So the relevance and point is:

Do Nutritionists really have the pets interests at heart? When they formulate a feed do they look solely at what the numbers say and the bottom line.... or do they look at all the research that is at their hands...which they are ignoring?

How did the oldest koi in the world - over 200 years old - live to that age? Was it from eating maize? Somehow I seriously doubt it!

When I look at any food (I actually do not have any cats - just used them as an example) I have dogs and koi ....I look to see what the ingredients are....... and if it is something completely different to what the animal/fish would eat in the wild - I would stay away from it............ so for me - I will always avoid foods which contain Maize / Corn etc - and I will alwyas go for foods which say Fish Meal / Shrimp Meal etc. Would I trust a company like Kyorin - YES! Would I trust a company who manufactures dog and cat food - NO!

and why
because all the research in the world has shown and proven that most (a huge majority) of pet food companies simply can not be trusted with the health of our dogs and cats - this is an Industry that makes over US$16 Billion a year - so for Koi and their nutrition - I would be very sceptical.......

Our of interest - I am not irked by "offal and yucky parts etc being used in commerical foods" - I am irked by the way in which it gets there..... I am willing to bet that not many people really understand that process of how these ingredients become made "unfit for human consumption" prior to going to a rendering plant - they are coated first with highly toxic substances like Coal Tar and Creosote....and you wonder why so many of our animals have cancer, heart disease, kidney disease, Pancreatitis, Hyperthyroidism etc.....

So in short - if after all the research and proof pet food companies continue to spit out inferior products which they KNOW are causing disease..... what chance do you have with your koi?

Sadly, only time will tell! I am sure that some of the people on this forum have travelled to Japan.... what do the Japanese feed?

This has turned out to be quiet an interesting discussion.......

Hi -

I think we must look to Wayne and the Aqua Master food shortage for this mammoth debate on the pet food industry - come now Dennis .......

In the middle of this debate - my first grand child has been born ..... a beautiful girl.

So lets see how it goes.

Yes, as koicare says - very interesting.

Kind regards,
Chris

Congatulations Chris, so your'e a grand dad now.

I am not sure if Dennis will get involved as that was not my question to him.

I was not the one that wanted to compare Appels and Appels.

Well, i got my Aqua Master. After speaking to dennis. As i said before i mix my food with a bit of this and a bit of that. As i said to you in an email "I am not a scientist so i know nothing regarding bio chemistry and that stuff. "

I make my decision on what i use; on how the koi food reacts to my pond enviroment.

Some of the local foods contain alot of broken pellets that sink and break up and end up in the bottom drain before they can be eaten while others smell so terrible that you will swear that i havn't clean my filters for a year, others pellets are bright red & green and worry me - that is what how i currently make my decision.

I cannot afford the high priced foods like Hikaris, Tetras and EA Show foods but also want the best - so where must i and others like myself go? I truly believe that if the Hikari supplier cut his own markup he will sell more and make more profit. You do not have to be the most expensive to be viewed as the best and you have a choice to follow the recommmende selling price or not. But until that happens we will have to try and find some middle way. What makes this harder is that manufactuers are allowed to lie on their food packaging. Here is the link regarding the koi food hat prevents KHV.

So how can you trust the print on the packaging from any koi food manufacturer?

This weekend i was comparing the labels of the diffirent types of koi food from the same local made brand. Growth, Maintenance and Winter feed. The nutrition table for the diffirent products where identical except for the protein - how is this possible - surely decreasing protein in the winter feed should increase something else like chris mentioned....so can you really trust the label?

I have 3 spaniels and i try to also give them the best. If anything happens to them because the manufacturer tried to save some money on their food make up i will propably become a criminal. My pets are my children and i want food companies to view them as such.

I am sure we all want the best for our pets but unfortunatly some of us are restricted by the bottom line.

My dogs eat the Pedigree dog food and thats already very expensive for me...I know there are better foods but in the end it will mean that i will have to stop eating so that i can feed my pets. So for now we try our best to find something in between.

From this debate i think koicare and chris bought out a lot of good points and chris from shogun on the other end will know if it is possible todo and afford what she is talking about or not.

In the end we the consumers look at the price; the nice bright glossy packaging and then maybe - maybe the nutrution table. So who is really to blame?

Hi Wayne,

Yes – finally a grandfather. I am sure she has her grandfathers good-looks genes.

My intention was to pull yours and Dennis’s legs – basically saying that the original posting has evolved from a post about the Aqua Master shortage to a debate on the world pet food industry. It’s amazing how these things develop.

Good to see you got your food. Yes, I agree with you – if you are not sure then mix your foods. However keep in mind that mixing pellets is not the same as a varied diet. Worms, insects, shrimps etc are great for the koi. Also red peppers – if you can get your fish to take them. Oranges, carrots etc Nothing wrong with this.

The decision you make on which koi food to use should not be dictated by the reaction of the koi food to the pond environment – it should be dictated by the long term reaction of the koi to the food.

There are some very good foods on the market. If you want that extra mile then supplement with fresh foods. Don’t overdo it.

In many cases you cannot trust the print on the packaging.

“This weekend i was comparing the labels of the different types of koi food from the same local made brand. Growth, Maintenance and Winter feed. The nutrition table for the diffirent products where identical except for the protein - how is this possible - surely decreasing protein in the winter feed should increase something else like chris mentioned....so can you really trust the label?”

Exactly

Are your spaniels healthy? Obviously, yes, otherwise you would be corresponding from jail – so why do you want a ”better” food. There is nothing wrong with the brand of dog food you are using even if it is made by the dreaded Masterfoods. This is one of the better dog foods. When we were developing the cat litter I saw their new facility in Pretoria, I also saw their quality control and formulations – a superior dog food for sure.

Now an interesting thing about dog foods – imagine you are a pet food manufacturer. An honest pet food manufacturer. You have qualified nutritionists developing your formulations in conjunction with scientific data. The raw materials you use come from the manufacturers with certificates – certificates of nutritional values and origins. Your product is going along nicely and you develop your market to say 100,000 tons per year in say South Africa. Or several million tons of production per year in say the USA or Europe.

Suddenly groups of dogs start dying – all from similar symptoms. What do you do? Do you carry on merrily with the way you are making the food or do you investigate? You immediately investigate, your business is at stake here. Your hundreds of millions of dollars investment is at stake.

Initially you simply cannot find the reason for the dog deaths. The lab tests for possible toxins come back negative. The deaths continue. Eventually you stumble upon the cause – your supplier of corn gluten has been spiking the raw material (for years) with melamine. Melamine is a plastic power used to make kitchen tops. It is used to trick the protein test done on food protein sources. It gives a false test result – a higher protein content than is actually there. That’s OK – not everyone is honorable in what they do. But the levels added into the raw material are causing the kidneys to collapse in animals and deaths are resulting.

This is undiscovered for years. Then suddenly babies milk is also spiked with melamine. Again simply to make more money by falsifying the test results. And now human babies start dying and many, many more become permanently ill.
It’s a nightmare faced by honest pet food manufacturers and honest manufacturers of baby products.

When the source of the illnesses was discovered test were developed and now pet food and human food manufacturers use the standardized test on raw materials before use in their factories.

If you search around you will find that melamine has been used in raw materials for the fish food industry for a lot longer than in pet foods or human milk supplements. And that is worrying.

This is why I posted some time ago asking if anyone had experienced a lot of dropsy in their koi collections.

Yes koicare has opened up the debate with some excellent points – but it’s not over yet. My reply to the last posting is still in the mixer and is on the way shortly.
If we can get what is “ideal” we can look at it and see if it’s practical and even what it would cost.

Now about that nice bright glossy packaging .....

Kind regards,
Chris