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 Sick Fish

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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:18 am

Maybe I am asking too much since I know it is difficult to judge from a video clip, but here goes:

I have a problem with my one Koi. It seems to be gasping for air and swims funny. No visible signs of something wrong on fish. The rest of the collection seems to be fine. I have plenty of water flow in pond and switched my 650L/min air pump on this morning just to add more air. It is feeding air to pond via 8 x 50mm stones


My filter was cleaned 25days ago which I think was a wrong choice since it was not fully matured yet. Had a nitrite spike about a week ago with level of 1.0mg / L. Did a water change and added Bio Booster.

Parameters today:
pH 7.6 and stable. kH 6.8, NO3 10mg/L and NO2 0.1 mg/L. Ammonia <0.5mg/L and salt at 0.1%. Not sure about water temp but it is rather cold in Bloem

Any help will be greatly appreciated



Last edited by Marius Bezuidenhout on Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pieter J de Villiers



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:32 pm

Hi,

ek kan nie mooi op die video sien nie, maar het die vis 'n knop aan sy regter-sy?

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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 12:54 pm

Hallo Pieter

Nee die vis het geen knoppe nie.Dit wat jy in video gesien het dink ek is 2 wit kolle weerskante van die lyf. Lyk soos 'missing' kleur, maar dit is reeds daar vandat ek Koi so 3 jaar gelede gekoop het toe ek nog my 4000L 'goudvis dammetjie' gehad het

Hoop die foto help, dit is so 2 maande gelede geneem toe ek die UV's ingesit het



Last edited by Marius Bezuidenhout on Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:16 pm

Kan ook byvoeg dat vis nie nou meer bo swem en lug soek nie. Koi het hom / haarself afgesonder en is nou heeltyd so 1/3 van bo af. Daar is beslis fout want hierdie vis is altyd eerste by kos en stoot selfs die ander uit die pad uit om te eet.

Kan dit die nitrite spike wees wat dalk veroorsaak het dat dinge nou verkeerd begin verloop vir die Koi?
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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:36 pm

Hi Marius

Op die video lyk dit asof hy belangstel in die kos wat 'n goeie teken is. As hy hom nou egter afsonder, kan daar 'n parasiet/e wees wat hom pla, maar ek dink dit kan heel waarskynlik Nitriet vergiftiging wees. Die Nitritete verhoed dat die koi behoorlik suurstof uit die water kan haal en nou probeer hy om meer suurstof te kry deur na die oppervlak te swem. My voorstel is om dadelik jou sout konsentrasie op te stoot tot 0.4 (4kg/1000). Huidiglik is jou sout 1kg/1000.


Die sout negativeer die effek van nitriet vergiftiging en help die koi om weer normaal suurstof uit die water te haal.

Die sout help ook met stres wat gereeld veroorsaak word aan die begin van die winter as gevolg van buitengewone wisseling van temperatuur.

Indien jy 'n mikroskoop het, neem ook 'n skraap om seker te maak of daar nie dalk 'n parasiet probleem is nie.

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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:21 pm

Ek het nog nooit Nitriet vergiftiging gesien nie. Weet nie of iemand op die forum al het nie.
Dit lyk of die vis sukkel om bo te bly, kan nie sien of hy wel kos wil eet of nie.
Ek dink mens sal eers more kan sien wat gebeur.
0.1% sout is meer as genoeg om Nitriet vergiftiging te verhoed.
As die ander visse normaal is moenie nog sout bygooi nie.

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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:40 pm

Nitriet vergiftiging veroorsaak bruin bloed siekte en ek het dit al baie teegekom. ‘n Hoe konsentrasie sout het nog altyd goed gewerk. 0.1 g sal wel die vergiftiging self aanspreek. Hoe nitrate veroorsaak egter dikwels parasiete(sekonder) soos Costia en daarom glo ek dit is raadsaam om meer as 0.1 sout toe te voeg. Veral omdat jy onlangs nuwe visse toegevoeg het en skommeling van temperatuur het.



Methylene Blue bind ook die rooibloedselle en word dikwels aangeraai in gevalle van Nitriet vergiftiging.



The signs of nitrite toxicity are similar to many other fish health problems, which is why it is so important to carry out a full investigation and diagnosis before any treatments are used. At low levels the fish may rub against solid objects or ‘flash’. As levels increase the fish will become lethargic, but may still swim up to feed. If the fish is suffering from nitrite poisoning the gills will be pale tan to dark brown in colour and the fish may exhibit signs of respiratory distress, i.e gasping at the water surface or hanging around water inlets. Moving fish to clean water will often reverse the condition.

How to control elevated levels



In the next stage of the nitrogen cycle Nitrobacter sp. bacteria oxidise nitrite (NO2-) to nitrate (NO3-). Nitrate is considerably less toxic than nitrite, although nitrate levels should not exceed 50mg/litre.



The situation with nitrite is similar to that of ammonia, inasmuch that Nitrobacter bacteria will only be encouraged to multiply if there is an increased nitrite level. Unfortunately, all nitrifying bacteria are slow growers and Nitrobacter take some time – often 2-3 weeks in new systems– to respond to an increased level. In the meanwhile the water has to be managed by regular testing and water changing until levels stabilise. Nitrobacter can be inhibited by very high ammonia levels and prefer a pH range between 7.5 – 8.6 with at least 1mg/litre dissolved oxygen.



It is worth noting that the actual toxicity of nitrite is affected by salinity. In salty water, that is water with added sodium chloride, the gills will tend to take up chloride ions in preference to nitrite ions, thus offering some protection against nitrite poisoning. Adding ˝ oz of salt per gallon, along with regular water changes should suffice as a short-term measure against poisoning. www.pondcrisis.com

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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:52 pm

My eerste dink rigting sal wees parasiete maar ek kan nie op die foto / video sien of die vis die water se oppervlak breek nie. So is hy regtig agter suurstof aan of het hy 'n swem probleem?

As hy nie die oppervlak breek nie dan sal ek die parasiet en suurstof tekort denkrigtings uitskakel.

Het jy miskien jou visse probeer vang gister of vroeg vanoggend? Ek het 'n chagoi wat so maak asgevolg van stress waneer okal ek my net in die water sit en dan maak hy so vir die volgende 24hr. Hy kom op na bo vertikaal en spoeg dan water dan val hy na agter en doen regtig die "backstroke" en dan tuimel hy na onder. Hy is my buddy fish in die QT op die oomblik maar ek gaan hom actually uitsit want hy het nou al 'n kink in sy spine ontwikkel en swem heeltemal skeef. Blybaar is die vis van my stress sensitief. Hy kalmeer as die water so 3% sout in het maar 'n mens kan nie 'n dam daar hou nie en hy het nou al juis die gebrek.

In jou geval sal ek sal eers 'n micro skoop skraap op die vis doen en parasiete uit reel en as daar niks ernstige tevinde is nie die sout in jou water verhoog soos aanbeveel. Dit is goed om die vis tekalmeer.

Wat is jou water params? Die water lyk bietjie "milky".

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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 pm

Parameters today:
pH 7.6 and stable. kH 6.8, NO3 10mg/L and NO2 0.1 mg/L. Ammonia <0.5mg/L and salt at 0.1%

Ek verneem die vis het vanaand so bietjie geeet wat goeie teken is. Hy hang die heeltyd rond op plek in dam ( so 500mm van bo af ) en swem nie baie rond nie.

Nee, die mense by huis het hom nie vandag probeer vang nie en hom so min as moontlik probeer pla. As dinge more erger raak sal ek hulp moet inroep aangesien en eers oor so 3weke weer in SA sal wees. Moet nog 'n mikroskoop koop en leer waarna om te kyk want ek glo dit is belangrik om die regte diagnose te doen voor daar medikasie toegedien word. Dit is nogals 'n pyn om so ver te werk as jou diere siek word en die siek koi is na aan my hart aangesien ek hom die langste het van al die visse.

Die water op die foto was baie groen want ek het die foto geneem so 2 of 3 dae nadat ek die UV's ingesit het. Water was baie helder daarna en mens kon alles op bodem duidelik sien. Ek het egter versoek dat die filter aan die begin van April skoon gemaak moes word wat dom was van my. Die Matala het ek einde Febr ingesit en was nog nie mature nie. Na die skoonmaak het baie van die fyn deeltjies in dam op geeindig en water was baie vuil. Verlede week was nitrite 1.0mg/L maar het sederdien gesak na 0.1mg/L. Jare terug het ek 4 groot tropiese tanks gehad en elke dag rekord gehou van die water. My nitrite was ook hoog en as ek reg kan onthou het dit na so 21 -25 dae skielik gedaal. My persoonlike opinie is dat dit my eie skuld is vir wat nou gebeur het en ek moes beter geweet het voor ek aan filters gekarring het.

Dankie vir al die inligting tot dusver, ek besef dit is nie maklik om na video te kyk en te raai wat die fout is nie.
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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:17 am

This clip was taken this morning. Pay attention to the top left part of video



Regards
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wayneb



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:02 pm

hmmm...that looks very bad. Brain damage by any chance?...

I have seen something simular to that here on this forum. I will try and find it.

My chagoi does something simular but not as fast and he does not recover for atleast 1 day. Get one of the more senior koi hobbists in your area to go and check the fish out. Do a scrape and those type of things.

Sorry but it does not look good.

Wayne

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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:45 pm

Wayne, I do agree with you. Not looking good at all. Found a small 12cm fish on bottom of pond. Hardly alive with red blood running from gills and the gills are pink in colour. A am sure it is dead by now. Think things are more serious now than I thought earlier on
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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 1:52 pm

Marius, i can remember that Pieter went to visit a guy in kempton park whos kois was affected by the power failures last year. His fish exhibited simular swimming patterns but that was due to brain damage. I have been unable to find the post but i think its on pieters forum.

But the bleeding from the gills sounds like a water quality / parasites problem. Any poisons in the water? Let the water test aswell for heavy metals.

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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:08 pm

Hi,

Die Koi het inwendige probleme!
As hy so begin rond swem soos op die tweede video is dit net tyd voordat hy dood gaan. Dit kan egter dae neem voordat dit gebreur.
Wanneer daar 'n skielike water tempretuur daling plaas vind, is visse met inwande ontsteking die eerste wat tekens van ongemak toon.

Hierdie vis mag nier probleme onder vind of dit het 'n "tumour".

Ek het 'n Sanke wat op 22/4/09 dieselfde gedoen het, en hy later op die "bottum drain" gaan le, ek het hom met Genta 50 ( antibiotieka) ingespuit en hy is vandag nog spring lewendig, alhoewel hy 'n "tumour" in sy buik het.
Ek sal probeer om later 'n video te pos.

Marius, ek stel voor dat julle antibiotieka in sy lyf kry.

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Marius Bezuidenhout



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PostSubject: Re: Sick Fish   Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:49 pm

Thanks guys for all the helpful information. The small fish is still alive but only just. I am only the messenger since I am 4000km away but from what I understand the gills have a pinkish colour and the blood is normal red, not dark in colour. No external signs of a possible problem. That was also one of my first pet shop fish and wanted to get rid of all the bad ones in 3weeks from now. Hopefully no more fish will die since they all look good (That’s what I said 2 days ago as well)

Pieter, het jy dalk enige idee wie in die Bloem area behulpsaam kan wees met behandeling van Koi asook die regte diagnose te kan gee ivm dam. Ek dink ek moet begin geld spandeer aan mikroskoof en medikasie gereeld hou, en minder geld uitgee aan ander gadgets wat geen doel het nie.

Groete
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